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Planning permission apply or wait

  • 06-06-2021 12:57pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ FrankieB29


    Hi

    Is it a good idea to apply for planning permission now or wait until we are actually building? I know if we apply now and its accepted we have five years to start the build.
    Will be building in around three years time.


Comments

  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    FrankieB29 wrote: »
    Hi

    Is it a good idea to apply for planning permission now or wait until we are actually building? I know if we apply now and its accepted we have five years to start the build.
    Will be building in around three years time.

    You can extend the permission for five years, once it doesn't contravene any new policy


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ FrankieB29


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    You can extend the permission for five years, once it doesn't contravene any new policy



    I have heard change in planning permission laws on the way next year March where no further one-off house will be granted planning without proof that the income is solely from farming.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ FrankieB29


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    You can extend the permission for five years, once it doesn't contravene any new policy


    I know planning permission can take awhile so its probably better to get started on it now at least then when we are ready to build we won't have to worry about applying for planning permission then and waiting ages for it .


  • Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭ yurtyaherne


    FrankieB29 wrote: »
    I have heard change in planning permission laws on the way next year March where no further one-off house will be granted planning without proof that the income is solely from farming.

    This is nothing new.

    There can be lands located in certain parts of a county that would preclude anyone from building unless they were the son or daughter of a farming landowner (of a minimum of 20 ha in some instances).

    And its nothing to do with any planning laws, its due to the ongoing review of many county development plans nationwide.

    The general consensus is that there will be further limiting of one-off builds in the countryside.

    This is something the majority of people that has had a one off build appealed to An Bord Pleanala would tell you is already happening


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ FrankieB29


    This is nothing new.

    There can be lands located in certain parts of a county that would preclude anyone from building unless they were the son or daughter of a farming landowner (of a minimum of 20 ha in some instances).

    And its nothing to do with any planning laws, its due to the ongoing review of many county development plans nationwide.

    The general consensus is that there will be further limiting of one-off builds in the countryside.

    This is something the majority of people that has had a one off build appealed to An Bord Pleanala would tell you is already happening




    There is a house on half a acre of land that was sold a few years ago but still have over 20 acres left to build on.
    We are thinking of applying for planning permission now so whe its time to build we won't be rushing to try and get planning. The land is owned by my partners family and parts of it is used for cattle .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ CorkRed93


    FrankieB29 wrote: »
    I have heard change in planning permission laws on the way next year March where no further one-off house will be granted planning without proof that the income is solely from farming.

    yeah ive seen a lot about this too. have a site agreed subject to planning so have decided to start the process now incase of any changes .
    Im holding off building for at least 12 months given these price increases/shortages of supplies/labour , I assume id be safe with planning (should it be granted) even if regs changed in 12 months time?


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    FrankieB29 wrote: »
    I have heard change in planning permission laws on the way next year March where no further one-off house will be granted planning without proof that the income is solely from farming.

    Where have you heard this? I seen one fb post but no hard evidence


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    FrankieB29 wrote: »
    Hi

    Is it a good idea to apply for planning permission now or wait until we are actually building? I know if we apply now and its accepted we have five years to start the build.
    Will be building in around three years time.

    Regulations are likely to get tighter than stay the same so sooner is better.


  • Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 43,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭ muffler


    dmakc wrote: »
    Regulations are likely to get tighter than stay the same so sooner is better.
    Not necessarily as there has been talk recently in political circles about opening the rural areas up a bit to allow people to work from home which in turn takes a number of rural dwellers out of urban areas and back to the soil thus freeing up properties to rent and buy in those areas under pressure.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BryanF


    OP

    Can we get a link to anything that confirms this? Ideally Not gossip.

    Thanks


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  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    It's meath specific, but may trickle to counties under pressure from Dublin.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.meath.ie/system/files/media/file-uploads/2019-05/CDP07_Chapter6_Rural%2520Development.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiI8Ib2_onxAhUxnFwKHY2sDMUQFjABegQIAxAG&usg=AOvVaw0-qn5yBY0DlDTbw0pxzJGt

    Theres a lot to unpack in this, but essentially they are trying to corral new rural development into nodes around villages.
    The most controversial factor in this is that some people won't be allowed build on family land.

    I simply cannot see a situation where these policies will be adopted into say kerry, mayo etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    It's meath specific, but may trickle to counties under pressure from Dublin.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.meath.ie/system/files/media/file-uploads/2019-05/CDP07_Chapter6_Rural%2520Development.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiI8Ib2_onxAhUxnFwKHY2sDMUQFjABegQIAxAG&usg=AOvVaw0-qn5yBY0DlDTbw0pxzJGt

    Theres a lot to unpack in this, but essentially they are trying to corral new rural development into nodes around villages.
    The most controversial factor in this is that some people won't be allowed build on family land.

    I simply cannot see a situation where these policies will be adopted into say kerry, mayo etc

    "Persons, whose employment is rurally based, such as teachers in rural primary schools or
    whose work predominantly takes place within the rural area in which they are seeking to build
    their first home, or is suited to rural locations such as farm hands (full-time or significant part-time) or trades-people and who
    have a housing need."

    That PDF seems to be from a while back and doesn't address OP's statement


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    You are correct, I linked the wrong doc.

    I'll find the right one when I'm back in the office


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    I really struggle to see sole income from farming being more than a rumour / coming into effect. Not specific to here but I see same statement doing the rounds on Facebook.

    So many obstacles. Fewer farms are full time than ever before especially with the college generation now at planning application age. Very few farmers in general are in full control of their farm by early 30s so won't adhere to this requirement. For anyone to give up their second job and become a sole income farmer their mortgage size would cut to nothing.

    It's a very contrarian policy to implement and caters to no one outside of a dairyman's child inheriting 150 cows. And who knows how business debt will be examined.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    https://consult.meath.ie/system/files/materials/33/09.%20Rural%20Development%20Strategy.pdf

    heres the proper document

    see rural policy 3.

    same point as above
    Theres a lot to unpack in this, but essentially they are trying to corral new rural development into nodes around villages.
    The most controversial factor in this is that some people won't be allowed build on family land.

    I simply cannot see a situation where these policies will be adopted into say kerry, mayo etc

    its applicable to all rural areas in Meath (Strong Urban Influence and Strong Rural Areas) as they have essentially removed any Structurally weak rural areas in the county.

    I can see serious issues with this as:
    1. it essentially creates a very, very valuable housing bank of land to farmers on the outskirts of villages (nodes) (repeating the land bank mistakes of the past)
    2. it encourages ribbon development on the most frequently used roads around towns and villages
    3. it will destroy rural parish communities as sons / daughters of landowners will not be able to afford these 0.5 acres node sites, so will only have the option of moving into large towns / cities. The population of these rural parish's will steadily increase until there are no young people left anymore to take part in rural community activities GAA, primary schools etc

    imagine having a 2 acres site and your daughter wanting to build a house beside yours, to stay close to you in your older age... and being told... sorry no, you have to move 12 kms to the edge of the next village.. where you have to purchase a site in excess of 100k before you turn a sod.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    https://consult.meath.ie/system/files/materials/33/09.%20Rural%20Development%20Strategy.pdf

    heres the proper document

    see rural policy 3.

    same point as above


    its applicable to all rural areas in Meath (Strong Urban Influence and Strong Rural Areas) as they have essentially removed any Structurally weak rural areas in the county.

    I can see serious issues with this as:
    1. it essentially creates a very, very valuable housing bank of land to farmers on the outskirts of villages (nodes) (repeating the land bank mistakes of the past)
    2. it encourages ribbon development on the most frequently used roads around towns and villages
    3. it will destroy rural parish communities as sons / daughters of landowners will not be able to afford these 0.5 acres node sites, so will only have the option of moving into large towns / cities. The population of these rural parish's will steadily increase until there are no young people left anymore to take part in rural community activities GAA, primary schools etc

    imagine having a 2 acres site and your daughter wanting to build a house beside yours, to stay close to you in your older age... and being told... sorry no, you have to move 12 kms to the edge of the next village.. where you have to purchase a site in excess of 100k before you turn a sod.

    Thank you, but I note in Rural Policy 14;

    "In order to satisfy the rural housing policy
    for a rural dwelling in Co. Meath in all
    areas, an applicant shall:

    (A) Meet ONE of the following categories of
    applicant:

    Category 1. A member of a farming family
    who is actively engaged in farming the
    family landholding.

    OR

    Category 2. A member of a farm family
    who wishes to reside on the family
    landholding.

    AND

    (B) Meet one of the local need criteria set
    out in Table9.1 (a) and 9.1 (b) Schedule of
    Local Need."


    The wording is inconsistent but I then gather from the charts on p14/15 that Category 1 relates to the sole-income farmer, which is one way to get a house - but there's still an alternative route for those wishing to reside on family lands under 9.1(b). I assume being part-time in this scenario only helps an applicant's cause. Both require a farm with minimum 25 acres which is the main hindrance to outsiders I feel.

    Open to correction could be missing something


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,981 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian


    Do it now to protect against likely changes.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    category 1 person is essentially a full time farmer.
    there is no difference if the site is within the strong urban influence area or strong rural area


    category 2 person must be:
    A member of a farm family who wishes to reside on the family landholding.


    if within the strong urban influence area then it must be shown that the person:
    1. has along term residential relationship with the area in excess of 10 years and;
    2. is a family landholding of 25 acres for min of 10 years,
    3. must be their first home


    or a returning emigrant meeting the same criteria above
    or a person with a rural business in operation for min of 5 years


    if within the strong rural area then it must be shown that the person:
    1. has along term residential relationship with the area in excess of 10 years and;
    2. must be on family landholding
    3. must be their first home
    4. if no landholding available, a site with 5km may be considered

    or a returning emigrant meeting the same criteria above
    or a person with a rural business in operation for min of 5 years


    so category 1 is a farmer

    category 2 in 'strong urban influence' area will also most likely be a farmer (as im sure you could count on one hand the number of landowner with more than 25 acres and NOT farmers.

    category 2 in 'strong rural' area is more in line with current rural restrictions, but the problem is about 90% of the county is designated as "strong urban influence"

    see attached screenshot


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ dmakc


    So I gather; rather than planning permission being limited to full time farmers as suggested earlier in the thread - instead we've a case where full-time farmers will still get their planning permission, while 90% of Meath's part-time farmers will also likely get it as long as they've >25 acres to their name, while the remaining 10% of the county are subject to no change.

    The revelation for me was the "sole-income from farming" requirement which doesn't seem to be the case in reality. But the >25acres requirement I can see limiting many.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,243 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    dmakc wrote: »
    So I gather; rather than planning permission being limited to full time farmers as suggested earlier in the thread - instead we've a case where full-time farmers will still get their planning permission, while 90% of Meath's part-time farmers will also likely get it as long as they've >25 acres to their name, while the remaining 10% of the county are subject to no change.

    The revelation for me was the "sole-income from farming" requirement which doesn't seem to be the case in reality. But the >25acres requirement I can see limiting many.

    the "sole income from farming" is a bit hyperbolic... but actually not far from the truth for the vast majority of potential applicants under this new development plan policy.

    if you consider that for 90% of the whole county, the only people who will be allowed build on family land are people whos parents own more than 25 acres AND who dont already own a home... then you really are looking at only full time farmers as being the ones who can build.

    id be very interested in seeing statistics from the likes of Teagasc on farmers in Meath who have less than 25 acres and are full time farmers.. and compare to those who have more than 25 acres and are part time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭ ml100


    OP, planning permission can take years and it's not going to get any easier in the future so I'd start the process now, It took us nearly 4 years to get it and now we cant build because of the mess covid has made of building material costs etc, we'll look at it again in a year or so and see what's the lastest issue with the construction sector then!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ FrankieB29


    ml100 wrote: »
    OP, planning permission can take years and it's not going to get any easier in the future so I'd start the process now, It took us nearly 4 years to get it and now we cant build because of the mess covid has made of building material costs etc, we'll look at it again in a year or so and see what's the lastest issue with the construction sector then!



    Would you not have to apply again if goes over 5 years ?
    I just think its stupid as they don't own the land my family does . Why should I move to an estate to a house thats way over priced with little to no garden. When I can build a decent size house the way I want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭ raze_them_all_


    The longer the greens have any semblance of power the more difficult it will be for me and you to do anything in the country. I'd deffo apply now


  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭ lillycakes2


    Seems very unfair and also discriminatory to only allow offsprings of farmers to build houses out the country.......................? Crazy ,glad i built when i did so


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,577 ✭✭✭ SouthWesterly


    I've 4 acres and hoping the kids can build in 20 years time.

    Will the greens be out of favour by then? :)


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