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Infertile bull

  • 02-06-2021 6:45pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Hi I bought a bull four weeks ago. He was fertility tested in February. The repeats started this week NO Cow held. Got the vet, all the sperm are dead. Thinks if he was fertile in Feb he must have got a temperature since and it takes 105 days since the temperature before he will be fertile. So who knows when he will perform. Where do I stand. I will contact the seller but it would be nice to know where I stand first


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    Hi I bought a bull four weeks ago. He was fertility tested in February. The repeats started this week NO Cow held. Got the vet, all the sperm are dead. Thinks if he was fertile in Feb he must have got a temperature since and it takes 105 days since the temperature before he will be fertile. So who knows when he will perform. Where do I stand. I will contact the seller but it would be nice to know where I stand first

    Technically the bull is infertile but if the vet says he has dead sperm (as opposed to no sperm) and must've had a temperature it might be hard to say when he got it, was it 2 months ago or 4 weeks ago with the stress of moving home.

    Might be best to approach the seller nicely and explain the situation first, he might be able to loan you a bull or swap a bull.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭ mahoney_j


    Hi I bought a bull four weeks ago. He was fertility tested in February. The repeats started this week NO Cow held. Got the vet, all the sperm are dead. Thinks if he was fertile in Feb he must have got a temperature since and it takes 105 days since the temperature before he will be fertile. So who knows when he will perform. Where do I stand. I will contact the seller but it would be nice to know where I stand first

    Who tested the bull ????if anyone outside of a vet did the cert won’t stand up legally lots of lads on dd advertising to do this ,but from what I gather from my vet only a vets cert will carry weight


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Who tested the bull ????if anyone outside of a vet did the cert won’t stand up legally lots of lads on dd advertising to do this ,but from what I gather from my vet only a vets cert will carry weight

    If you start disputing the validity and legality of the sellers fertility test straight off you either better be prepared to buy another bull or have no calves next year because this might not get sorted sorted for months.

    By all means question it if the seller won't try to come to some reasonable agreement. Problem here is dead sperm were probably alive at some point or that's the argument the seller would make.

    Legally though it would come down to an ability to put a cow in calf within a reasonable time frame would it not. A fertility test wouldn't guarantee that even with perfect sperm no matter who did it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭ mahoney_j


    If you start disputing the validity and legality of the sellers fertility test straight off you either better be prepared to buy another bull or have no calves next year because this might not get sorted sorted for months.

    By all means question it if the seller won't try to come to some reasonable agreement. Problem here is dead sperm were probably alive at some point or that's the argument the seller would make.

    Legally though it would come down to an ability to put a cow in calf within a reasonable time frame would it not. A fertility test wouldn't guarantee that even with perfect sperm no matter who did it.

    I bought a bull recently at a dairy sale ,brought him home got vet to test ,semen fine but warts on his rod which bleed ,blood kills semen so vet wouldn’t certify ,contacted mart ,bull taken back and getting full refund despite protests from Mart snd owner that the bull had served stock on his farm with no issue ,


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    I bought a bull recently at a dairy sale ,brought him home got vet to test ,semen fine but warts on his rod which bleed ,blood kills semen so vet wouldn’t certify ,contacted mart ,bull taken back and getting full refund despite protests from Mart snd owner that the bull had served stock on his farm with no issue ,

    Kind of my point really, semen doesn't mean everything either. How likely would he be to stick his rod in a cow with warts that bleed. It sounds painful.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Who tested the bull ????if anyone outside of a vet did the cert won’t stand up legally lots of lads on dd advertising to do this ,but from what I gather from my vet only a vets cert will carry weight

    I linked a case with a limo breeder and a farmer. The farmer won his case with a failed fertility test from a scanning tech while the breeder had a calf dna tested from the bull AND a fertility test from a vet. Iirc you are a Tipp man and this breeder is on the Tipp/Offaly border.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/news/courts/offaly-man-sued-over-claims-he-sold-infertile-bull-38090994.html&ved=2ahUKEwj-zKmd8PnwAhUOrRQKHY0CDqcQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3PRPxr044akS_yLPW0b6dZ


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭ grassroot1


    Contact the breeder and I am sure they will arrange a replacement. these things happen get the cows incalf first and sit down and come to an arrangement.
    A sperm test is not really a fertility test its a snapshot in time of semen quaility


  • Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Ok thanks everyone, I'm the kind that don't like confrontation but il ring tomorrow and state the case. If one cow had held it would be different, but for every cow to repeat. That is different


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,424 ✭✭✭ funkey_monkey


    Breeders rely on happy customers and the majority will help you out either with one to get this year done or swap one out. If it is a temporary problem he can sell it again later. If it is a permanent problem then he should refund/replace.

    These things happen. I don't think you need to be confrontational about it to get it resolved.

    Is the bull registered? If so, then the society might have something to say about the suitability of such animals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,907 ✭✭✭ Base price


    I've read a few posts here in the last couple of years where farmers have had fertility issues with purchased/bought in bulls.
    Years ago I used to breed PBR's and sell the young bulls & heifers. At that time there were published "Terms and Conditions" for the sale of Pedigree Registered Cattle which included detailed explanations for a bull getting a cow/heifer in calf. I always presumed that these T&C's were the law of the land?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Took him back no problem


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭ Mac Taylor


    Took him back no problem

    Great news.....did he replace or give you back your money (if you don’t mind me asking:D)


  • Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Mac Taylor wrote: »
    Great news.....did he replace or give you back your money (if you don’t mind me asking:D)

    Had no bull left


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,424 ✭✭✭ funkey_monkey


    Glad you got that part of the problem resolved.
    Are you able to get something organised now or will you CIDR and AI this year?


  • Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Done deal again I suppose. After getting a bad run of bulls, the last few years. Had one last year broke his rod. I'm half nervous to be honest to see what's coming next.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭ J.O. Farmer


    Done deal again I suppose. After getting a bad run of bulls, the last few years. Had one last year broke his rod. I'm half nervous to be honest to see what's coming next.

    Would it be worth hiring one in for this year at this stage and look to buy the bull you want for next year rather than what's available this week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ liosnagceann75


    Would it be worth hiring one in for this year at this stage and look to buy the bull you want for next year rather than what's available this week.

    I'm looking for a bull myself. My new whitehead bull hurt his leg after only 3 weeks. Needs rest and won't be back working this year. I went to Castleisland yesterday. Only a couple of bulls which didn't suit. Where would one go to hire out a bull?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭ lab man


    Ok thanks everyone, I'm the kind that don't like confrontation but il ring tomorrow and state the case. If one cow had held it would be different, but for every cow to repeat. That is different

    Similar happened here 4 years ago April bought a bull off an elderly man 15 mile away bull tested n all I let the bull off with a 15 cows we were busy at silage and took no notice of cows coming back in heat got them scanned in sept none pregnant so next cow we saw bulking we put them in a yard he wouldn't even go near her . I wouldn't go to the seller tho as he was about 80 yrs in hindsight i should have as I'd no calf for a long time and cows went arseways since


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭ lab man


    I'm looking for a bull myself. My new whitehead bull hurt his leg after only 3 weeks. Needs rest and won't be back working this year. I went to Castleisland yesterday. Only a couple of bulls which didn't suit. Where would one go to hire out a bull?

    Ennis a great place for bulls of a thursday can often be 10 to 15 bulls there they'd be older bulls 4 yrs plus tho mostly


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭ Bellview


    Done deal again I suppose. After getting a bad run of bulls, the last few years. Had one last year broke his rod. I'm half nervous to be honest to see what's coming next.

    unfortunately the better bulls are now sold unless you get lucky... and while not always the case lads selling older bulls this time of the year, the seller could be moving a problem ie temperment/hard calving etc


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,865 ✭✭✭ orm0nd


    lab man wrote: »
    Ennis a great place for bulls of a thursday can often be 10 to 15 bulls there they'd be older bulls 4 yrs plus tho mostly

    actually I was watching earlier to day for a little while as you say a few nice older bulls some of which were guaranteed fertile.

    a good few younger bulls as well ,no mention of status on some of them and a couple which I'd say missed sale for breeding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭ Grueller


    lab man wrote: »
    Similar happened here 4 years ago April bought a bull off an elderly man 15 mile away bull tested n all I let the bull off with a 15 cows we were busy at silage and took no notice of cows coming back in heat got them scanned in sept none pregnant so next cow we saw bulking we put them in a yard he wouldn't even go near her . I wouldn't go to the seller tho as he was about 80 yrs in hindsight i should have as I'd no calf for a long time and cows went arseways since

    We are breeding bulls here years and no offence lab man, if a lad came back after 5 months, I would be thick as pigsh1t. 6 weeks should be plenty for a lad to notice something awry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭ grassroot1


    Grueller wrote: »
    We are breeding bulls here years and no offence lab man, if a lad came back after 5 months, I would be thick as pigsh1t. 6 weeks should be plenty for a lad to notice something awry.

    To be fair to everyone a new bull needs to be watched for mating ability and getting cows incalf and problems reported ASAP to the breeder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 780 ✭✭✭ older by the day


    Bellview wrote: »
    unfortunately the better bulls are now sold unless you get lucky... and while not always the case lads selling older bulls this time of the year, the seller could be moving a problem ie temperment/hard calving etc

    Your probably right, I have the bull down for serving 20 (so they will repeat) in the past few weeks and some were AI as well when a big bunch were going so say 25 still to be served always. Any time I ever tried finishing with ai I got a nice few emptys. So il need a bull I think


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