Made redundant, Premium or Standard Dole?

Heighway61

Premium dole for the rich?


Hope the cut-off is not too low, my range rover needs quite a bit of work done and payment for the orchestral summer camp in the NCH is due.



Heather Humphreys

...we don't want to see that cliff edge income drop because they have entered into commitments commensurate with their income,” she told a press conference.

https://www.independent.ie/news/government-plans-to-link-dole-payments-to-persons-income-before-they-lost-their-job-40491847.html

Smee_Again

Long over due, pay more in should mean getting more out when needed.

I don’t think that people on the dole will be “rich”. It’s people who paid in more getting out more. For a period of time. And only if your are let go, as now.

PommieBast

Personally I see no problem with someone who has not worked at all for 5+ years getting little or no dole and those who have forked out a lot of tax to get a lot back. It is not a substitute for actual work

suicide_circus

Said it many times; the fact that someone who has never worked gets the same dole as someone who has worked for 25 years is an utter scandal.

Housefree

Artists getting a liveable wage now which will be the minimum wage, can see a lot of unemployed becoming artists

Proper order. They contribute the most.

0lddog

Heighway61 wrote: »

....Heather Humphreys...

Now, That Lady.... 'suppose its just me that finds her way of speaking a little, errr, rough ?

touts

I think the PUP has clearly shown that there is a need for different levels of welfare. Perhaps even a basic universal income. I know a few people who have spent the last year on the PUP and who have used that time to get set to launch their own business. They don't plan to go back to their old jobs. They plan to set up their own. One lad was working as a barber. He spent the last few months kitting out an old shop unit near him and opened a couple of weeks ago. One girl was working in an office and is setting up her own gig offering some sort of service to businesses. The PUP, along with a fortunate decrease in the usual spending, helped these and a few others I know to take the leap into their own business.

Government should give extra to people with drive and potential.

Atlantic Dawn

When you have contributed for 20 plus years and then find yourself not only getting the same dole as someone not working a day in their life but additionally only qualifying for this same dole for 9 months because over those 20 years you saved up your money, then dole cancelled because you don't 'qualify' for it, that's enraging and what happens now.

Murph85

Great! Cancel the xmas welfare bonus that only the long term unemployed get next, scandalous bs! A bonus for being a waster, only in Ireland...

Confused11811

While they're at it they should link children's allowance to PRSI contribution.

You should only get a basic children allowance for one child, with the exception being for twins, triplets and so on. After that children's allowance for 2nd or more children should only given to those who have paid previously paid PRSI contributions in our state.

Encourage the workers to have children. End inter generational unemployment.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

When you have contributed for 20 plus years and then find yourself not only getting the same dole as someone not working a day in their life but additionally only qualifying for this same dole for 9 months because over those 20 years you saved up your money, then dole cancelled because you don't 'qualify' for it, that's enraging and what happens now.

I think it’s 6 months.

Atlantic Dawn

fvp4 wrote: »

I think it’s 6 months.

Yes 6 months if you have up to up to 5 years contributions, 9 months if you have 5 years plus.

tjhook

Up until 10 years or so ago, there was a ceiling on the income exposed to PRSI. I suppose that was a recognition that since the payout is fixed, it's fairer to limit the payments people are forced to make to it.

Now that they've removed the ceiling, it's become a tax. It's no longer insurance. The payout is in no way related to contributions. In fact, there's very little difference in the benefit received even if you've never paid PRSI.

Relating the benefit to the payment would go some way to bring the "I" back into PRSI.

jimmycrackcorm

Self-employed people and entrepreneurs have largely been stigmatized by the state in favour of MNC's. You could start a business with little or no help from the state, employ staff that contribute taxes, and if your business failed, there was no dole or supports from the state.

Someone who loses their job also has a more difficult financial outlook as by virtue of getting paid they will have financial commitments such as a mortgage, car loan etc. But someone on the dole already is more likely to be receiving HAP or other financial assistance.

In normal (non-pandemic) circumstances, someone who loses their job is also more likely to get another one in a shorter period of time, they will be back contributing tax again, so it seems only fair that they get some higher benefit.

Geuze

suicide_circus wrote: »

Said it many times; the fact that someone who has never worked gets the same dole as someone who has worked for 25 years is an utter scandal.

People on JSA actually get more, as they get the Xmas bonus!!!

Geuze

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Self-employed people and entrepreneurs have largely been stigmatized by the state in favour of MNC's. You could start a business with little or no help from the state, employ staff that contribute taxes, and if your business failed, there was no dole.

"dole" = JSA.

Self-employed people could always apply for JSA, just like anybody else.

You may be thinking of JSB?



Note that the Govt extended JSB to self-employed workers in 2019:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit_self_employed.html

Pronto63

Confused11811 wrote: »

While they're at it they should link children's allowance to PRSI contribution.

You should only get a basic children allowance for one child, with the exception being for twins, triplets and so on. After that children's allowance for 2nd or more children should only given to those who have paid previously paid PRSI contributions in our state.

Encourage the workers to have children. End inter generational unemployment.

Agreed or maybe give the allowance as cash for first child and then some form of tax credit for subsequent kids. That way only “workers” get it.

Vestiapx

Housefree wrote: »

Artists getting a liveable wage now which will be the minimum wage, can see a lot of unemployed becoming artists

It's been the case for years that artists dont get the same Hassel to do a course and just get paid their dole and allowances but unconditional and opt in seems very open to abuse. I can't be alone in saying id like to write a book a few hours a day while spending extra time with my kids while they are young.

Dempo1

0lddog wrote: »

Now, That Lady.... 'suppose its just me that finds her way of speaking a little, errr, rough ?

As a Badger's A****, horrible accent

fits

Pronto63 wrote: »

Agreed or maybe give the allowance as cash for first child and then some form of tax credit for subsequent kids. That way only “workers” get it.

Having lived in deprived parts of Dublin for a while I think the only effect this would have is that some kids would really suffer. No one has children so they can claim 140 a month.

The dole should be linked to PRSI contributions and earnings though- it is in other countries.

Dempo1

I'm fascinated at what I perceive as preferencial treatment & sentiments towards Artists on SW/PUP, rarely is such sentiments shown towards others on PUP, indeed others have been smeared and ridiculed with gusto. The vast majority affected by the Pandemic were PAYE workers, most never saw the door of a social welfare office let alone its interiors.

Personally I believe everyone should be treated equally and it would seem any preferential treatment could and will be seen as discriminatory and rightly so. I believe a basic living wage for ALL is certainly worth considering. When considering at one point up to 800k people in Ireland at one time in the past 12 months required state income support, it's certainly proved a new approach is required, also worth pointing out Income Tax receipts barely impacted throughout the pandemic despite so many out of work and that surely suggests far to many citizens earning so little, they pay little or no income tax.

Wanderer78

Heighway61 wrote:

Premium dole for the rich?

Reducing the public money supply won't be good for the economy, it will reduce economic activities, we ll become dependent on deposits and new private sector loans to expand our economy, but will it work!

Captain Havoc

They have a similar system in Switzerland where you get 70% of what your wages were over the past year for one year. After that it's give or take €900 per month for a single person with possible other benefits like housing. Linky

Does this mean that they’re going to give more to long term unemployed?

“The proposal would see those who have been in long-term employment entitled to a higher payment than the current standard social welfare payment, receiving a percentage of their salary for a specific number of weeks or months when they lose their job.
Once the interim period is over, they would then receive the standard payment only.
For those who do not have enough contributions, they would be placed on the existing Jobseekers payment of €203.”

https://www.thejournal.ie/pay-related-social-welfare-5454616-Jun2021/

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Does this mean that they’re going to give more to long term unemployed?

“The proposal would see those who have been in long-term employment entitled to a higher payment than the current standard social welfare payment, receiving a percentage of their salary for a specific number of weeks or months when they lose their job.
Once the interim period is over, they would then receive the standard payment only.
For those who do not have enough contributions, they would be placed on the existing Jobseekers payment of €203.”

https://www.thejournal.ie/pay-related-social-welfare-5454616-Jun2021/

Long term employment

fvp4

fvp4 wrote: »

Long term employment

Doh! Time for a coffee!

TheValeyard

The dole should be there if you need it. It shouldn't be a dirty thing. Its a fallback to help working people get back on their feet. I see zero issue in working people getting bit extra until they can find employment again. These people want to be contributing to society and earning an income, not sitting at home all day doing nothing.

Allinall

It's called Pay Related Social Insurance.

About time it was used as designed.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Almost everywhere else in Europe, including France (a country we would consider more socialist than here) for example, they have a much much larger payment available on the basis of insured contributions - usually a high % of your previous income (subject to a cap) for up to two years. The logic of is that you’ve paid (heavily) into a social insurance fund and that you’re entitled to genuine income protection for a period of time, not just a small payment to meet minimum means.

There’s a basic payment too if you’re long term unemployed, or don’t have any payments into the social insurance system.

The issue in Ireland at present is that if you become unemployed, you can hit the wall in terms of income drop and go into a cascade of problems, including potentially losing your home while you’re between jobs. It’s not much of a safety net. The same applies in the UK too.

Our PSRI system often just seems like another layer of income tax as, unlike in other EU countries, it doesn’t seem to be very insurance based, rather it’s just tax.

My concern here is that they don’t go down the route of making the underlying non insured dole a payment that is set too low. If you do that you’ll just drive people into poverty, Tory style.

If they’re genuinely going towards a European style system great. If it’s some Tory inspired welfare cut dressed up as a European style system, it could cause major issues.

Reorganising it a bit is long overdue though.

Hopefully employment levels bounce back very quickly here in the next couple of months. The figures at the moment are eye watering, but they’re entirely pandemic related.

blanch152

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Self-employed people and entrepreneurs have largely been stigmatized by the state in favour of MNC's. You could start a business with little or no help from the state, employ staff that contribute taxes, and if your business failed, there was no dole or supports from the state.

Someone who loses their job also has a more difficult financial outlook as by virtue of getting paid they will have financial commitments such as a mortgage, car loan etc. But someone on the dole already is more likely to be receiving HAP or other financial assistance.

In normal (non-pandemic) circumstances, someone who loses their job is also more likely to get another one in a shorter period of time, they will be back contributing tax again, so it seems only fair that they get some higher benefit.

Out-of-date nonsense that has been debunked. The self-employed have a much better deal thanks to changes introduced by FG, one of the things I disagree with, as the tax advantages to being self-employed are significant.

blanch152

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Almost everywhere else in Europe, including France (a country we would consider more socialist than here) for example, they have a much much larger payment available on the basis of insured contributions - usually a high % of your previous income (subject to a cap) for up to two years. The logic of is that you’ve paid (heavily) into a social insurance fund and that you’re entitled to genuine income protection for a period of time, not just a small payment to meet minimum means.

There’s a basic payment too if you’re long term unemployed, or don’t have any payments into the social insurance system.

The issue in Ireland at present is that if you become unemployed, you can hit the wall in terms of income drop and go into a cascade of problems, including potentially losing your home while you’re between jobs. It’s not much of a safety net. The same applies in the UK too.

Our PSRI system often just seems like another layer of income tax as, unlike in other EU countries, it doesn’t seem to be very insurance based, rather it’s just tax.

My concern here is that they don’t go down the route of making the underlying non insured dole a payment that is set too low. If you do that you’ll just drive people into poverty, Tory style.

If they’re genuinely going towards a European style system great. If it’s some Tory inspired welfare cut dressed up as a European style system, it could cause major issues.

Reorganising it a bit is long overdue though.

Hopefully employment levels bounce back very quickly here in the next couple of months. The figures at the moment are eye watering, but they’re entirely pandemic related.

If we move towards a European-style system, there is no escaping the reality that we have the highest JSA in Europe.

Wanderer78

TheValeyard wrote: »

The dole should be there if you need it. It shouldn't be a dirty thing. Its a fallback to help working people get back on their feet. I see zero issue in working people getting bit extra until they can find employment again. These people want to be contributing to society and earning an income, not sitting at home all day doing nothing.

the root causes of long term unemployment is actually very complex, sitting on the internets ridiculing people for such outcomes actually does a grand total of fcuk all in resolving these issues.

once again, reducing the public money supply by reducing pup payments will in fact reduce economic activities, and will force the supply out into the private sector supply, i.e. the credit supply, it ll be interesting to see who rushes for loans first!

ClosedAccountFuzzy

blanch152 wrote: »

If we move towards a European-style system, there is no escaping the reality that we have the highest JSA in Europe.

We also have some of the highest costs of living in Europe.
In 2019, only Luxembourg and Denmark have higher.

An EU comparison on just raw numbers isn't necessarily all that useful.

There are also differences in other areas like out of pocket expenses here for various services can be higher, and there are various convoluted systems here for claiming allowances which are not necessarily universally applied too.

It's a complex picture.

The aim should be to maximise our ability to get the right people into the right jobs and to up-skill people who've the wrong skills for the jobs market. We do some of that well, and some of it could do with a total revamp.

What I would really hate to see is a move towards what's going on in the UK, where you've had a vilification of welfare recipients and rather cruel regimes that are often hitting the most vulnerable in society.

You'll get square pegs that don't fit round holes, and just punishing them for being square pegs won't make them suddenly become round ones.

There's a reality to be faced that you have a % who are basically unemployable, and you can address that through better engagement with them in terms of trying to provide opportunity, but you still need the base net there. If you pull away all supports, you can start having dire impacts by creating social problems, causing major strain on mental health services, creating issues for their dependents and also money that's spent on social welfare very often is being spent locally back into the economy, so it's not just disappearing into a void. It's actually stimulating other aspects of the economy.

My view of it is that there'll always be a small % who just aren't going to be able to fit into a workplace scenario for various reasons. There are people with issues and I think often they don't fall into the category of having mental health issues, but you get things like mild learning issues, problems with ability to concentrate / focus, unnoticed physical issues, emotional issues and also just upbringings that lacked essential skills that are creating issues.

There are many reasons why someone may be long term unemployed, and they're not all down to laziness. In fact, when the economy's booming here you see we get quite rapidly to nearly full employment.

What annoys me about the UK system is that there's this notion out there that people are all trying to game the system for the pitence it pays out. The reality is the policies over there are often absolutely crucifying the people who need it most and those who'll play the system will continue to do so as they're quite savvy. So you end up with the horror stories of someone who's very dependent on the system for support suddenly having it pulled away and sometimes with tragic outcomes.

I'm all for a redesign of the system here and removal of poverty traps and ensuring people have access to up-skilling, enterprise supports and all of that but to be a decent society you need to be prepared to support your most vulnerable. The consequences of not doing so are you create a rather more unpleasant place to live for everyone.

jimgoose

They've been doing that in Germany for years, about time.

Montage of Feck

Housefree wrote: »

Artists getting a liveable wage now which will be the minimum wage, can see a lot of unemployed becoming artists

It's basically communism for the wealthy payed for by the proletariat....so just like regular communism.

brightspark

Allinall wrote: »

It's called Pay Related Social Insurance.

About time it was used as designed.

I think at one time in the past, higher earners did get an improved dole payment.

Long overdue.

Housefree

Housefree wrote: »

Artists getting a liveable wage now which will be the minimum wage, can see a lot of unemployed becoming artists

What is this livable wage?

Montage of Feck

Montage of Feck wrote: »

It's basically communism for the wealthy payed for by the proletariat....so just like regular communism.

A communist society is a moneyless society.

Geuze

German system

UB / JSB = 60% of former net wage for a year, 67% if married

After a year, Hartz IV = approx 100 per week.

Murph85

Geuze wrote: »

German system

UB / JSB = 60% of former net wage for a year, 67% if married

After a year, Hartz IV = approx 100 per week.

E100 a week! Explains why we need s marginal rate of fifty percent here over a pittance :rolleyes:

Geuze

Murph85 wrote: »

E100 a week! Explains why we need s marginal rate of fifty percent here over a pittance :rolleyes:

My apologies, it's 446 per adult per month, so 103 per week.