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Cork Rail Plans - announced again and again

  • 01-06-2021 4:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭ Del.Monte


    https://www.thejournal.ie/new-railways-cork-economic-recovery-plan-5454345-Jun2021/



    Eamonn Ryan announced this scheme for the umteenth time today and to me seems no more than building a few long promised stations at Tivoli, Blarney etc. Where is the well thought out strategy that would have included the Midleton/Youghal line and developing the city eastwards where the land is ripe for development?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,047 ✭✭✭ questionmark?


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    https://www.thejournal.ie/new-railways-cork-economic-recovery-plan-5454345-Jun2021/



    Eamonn Ryan announced this scheme for the umteenth time today and to me seems no more than building a few long promised stations at Tivoli, Blarney etc. Where is the well thought out strategy that would have included the Midleton/Youghal line and developing the city eastwards where the land is ripe for development?

    To be fair if it actually happens it would be great. The fact this is EU money gives it a chance.

    It includes double tracking Midleton to allow 10 min frequency, through running from Mallow to Midleton/Cobh, preparing for electrification so it is more than just stations to be fair.

    As for development eastwards well take Waterock on edge of Midleton. Major plans for housing in the area(basically a new town tagged onto Midleton) and a train station is required to service it. New station at Tivoli where Port will be moving from and housing will go into.
    As for Midleton to Youghal, that's going to be a Greenway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭ Cookie_Monster


    standard practice there, same as Dart or Bus connects plans etc. Pick a report of the shelf, dust it off, advertise it, spend some millions, make small amendments, put back on shelf for another 5+ years


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    The main difference here is that this is coming from EU Covid stimulus money that must be spent so that gives me hope that this will actually happen unlike other previous announcements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭ whisky_galore


    Wash, rinse, repeat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,536 ✭✭✭ Leonard Hofstadter


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    The main difference here is that this is coming from EU Covid stimulus money that must be spent so that gives me hope that this will actually happen unlike other previous announcements.

    I hope you're right, Cork has been getting an improved rail line with these stations for at least the past 15 years, possibly longer, so I'll believe it when I see it.

    Won't it also mean increased journey times on the inter city services to Dublin and Tralee unless they're going to put in extra tracks as far as the last commuter station?

    Also a missed opportunity to not extend the line as far as Youghal, with no sign of any improvements to the N25 any time soon and Midleton-Youghal being so congested at the best of times, it's surely a good idea especially if the Greens are serious about us meeting the famous 50% CO2 reduction targets by 2030.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭ whisky_galore


    Also a missed opportunity to not extend the line as far as Youghal, with no sign of any improvements to the N25 any time soon and Midleton-Youghal being so congested at the best of times, it's surely a good idea especially if the Greens are serious about us meeting the famous 50% CO2 reduction targets by 2030.

    I'm sure people will be along to tell us that it would have been too expensive, wasn't needed and a bicycle path is adequate for those who wish to commute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    I hope you're right, Cork has been getting an improved rail line with these stations for at least the past 15 years, possibly longer, so I'll believe it when I see it.

    Won't it also mean increased journey times on the inter city services to Dublin and Tralee unless they're going to put in extra tracks as far as the last commuter station?

    Also a missed opportunity to not extend the line as far as Youghal, with no sign of any improvements to the N25 any time soon and Midleton-Youghal being so congested at the best of times, it's surely a good idea especially if the Greens are serious about us meeting the famous 50% CO2 reduction targets by 2030.

    The plan is to have passing loops at those stations to minimise disruption to Intercity services.

    Midleton to Youghal is not viable. Youghal is a small to medium size town and there's literally nothing between Midleton and Youghal that the train line passes through besides the very small villages of Mogeely and Killeagh. There's about 100 things that need to be improved in Cork transport ahead of a train to Youghal, which includes upgrading the N25.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭ Mefistofelino


    I'm sure people will be along to tell us that it would have been too expensive, wasn't needed and a bicycle path is adequate for those who wish to commute.

    The heavy rail census for 2019 (which was carried out in November 2018) shows that Midleton is extremely underused - 759 boardings over 22 departures on the day of census. The figures for previous years are worse. Are there any studies to say the costs of rehabilitating the Midleton-Youghal section are justified?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,328 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    The plan is to have passing loops at those stations to minimise disruption to Intercity services.

    Sorry, I don't understand this.

    The Dub-Cork line is doubled.

    This seems to suggest a third track being built at some stations to allow the IC to pass a local train?

    I didn't think we have so much traffic to justify this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,328 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    It includes double tracking Midleton to allow 10 min frequency, through running from Mallow to Midleton/Cobh, preparing for electrification so it is more than just stations to be fair.
    .

    Can a train from Mallow not simply arrive in Cork now, and start up again, and keep going straight onto the Cobh line?

    Platforms 4 and 5.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Geuze wrote: »
    Can a train from Mallow not simply arrive in Cork now, and start up again, and keep going straight onto the Cobh line?

    Platforms 4 and 5.

    Most of the trains from Mallow to Cork are actually intercity Dublin and Tralee trains. The through platform is to create a proper suburban network which doesn't lean on the Intercity service which effectively doubles up as a commuter service from Cork-Mallow especially with the proposed stops at Blarney and Blackpool. It would be completely unsuitable to use Intercity services for those stations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Geuze wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't understand this.

    The Dub-Cork line is doubled.

    This seems to suggest a third track being built at some stations to allow the IC to pass a local train?

    I didn't think we have so much traffic to justify this?

    This is from CMATS:
    Passing Loops
    To avoid impacting on the Inter-City rail services between Cork and Dublin, passing loops are likely to be required at all suburban stations on the Mallow Line at:
    - Blackpool/Kilbarry;
    - Monard station; and
    - Blarney/Stoneview.

    Bypass loops will enable suburban trains to stop at the new stations without
    impacting on the efficient operation of the Inter-City rail service


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,328 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Most of the trains from Mallow to Cork are actually intercity Dublin and Tralee trains. The through platform is to create a proper suburban network which doesn't lean on the Intercity service which effectively doubles up as a commuter service from Cork-Mallow especially with the proposed stops at Blarney and Blackpool. It would be completely unsuitable to use Intercity services for those stations.

    Sorry, what I meant was is it possible for a train to travel through Kent at the moment?
    The language used above suggests that through running isn't possible.

    As you say, it would be local trains operating a service from Mallow to Cobh, not IC.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Its possible. But there will often be an Intercity blocking at least one platform.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Geuze wrote: »
    Sorry, what I meant was is it possible for a train to travel through Kent at the moment?
    The language used above suggests that through running isn't possible.

    As you say, it would be local trains operating a service from Mallow to Cobh, not IC.

    Yeah it's possible but not optimal with Dublin trains that sit at the platforms for extended periods of time. Having an additional through platform will allow for higher frequency services and more flexible operations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,047 ✭✭✭ questionmark?


    The heavy rail census for 2019 (which was carried out in November 2018) shows that Midleton is extremely underused - 759 boardings over 22 departures on the day of census. The figures for previous years are worse. Are there any studies to say the costs of rehabilitating the Midleton-Youghal section are justified?

    Midleton to Cork usage has grown each year since it started and housing developments in Midleton and Carrigtohill will continue to drive it up.

    2019 figures

    "Record numbers and strong growth were also recorded on the Cork/Midleton route with passenger numbers up almost 10% from 437,000 passenger journeys to 480,000."

    'Cork/Cobh also performed strongly and was up 7% from 908,000 to 971,000"

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40134419.html%3ftype=amp


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,082 ✭✭✭✭ DaCor


    Midleton to Cork usage has grown each year since it started and housing developments in Midleton and Carrigtohill will continue to drive it up.

    2019 figures

    "Record numbers and strong growth were also recorded on the Cork/Midleton route with passenger numbers up almost 10% from 437,000 passenger journeys to 480,000."

    'Cork/Cobh also performed strongly and was up 7% from 908,000 to 971,000"

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40134419.html%3ftype=amp

    Those numbers look great but as with a lot of IE's numbers you need to take them with a pinch of salt

    Take Cork/Cobh, at 63,000 additional users

    /52 weeks = 1211 users per week
    /7 days = 173 users per day
    /46 services a day = 4 additional users per service

    Very simplistic calcs that dont account for BH's, weekend variations in timetables etc, but I think rounding up from 3.76 to 4 accounts fairly for those variations.

    This gives you an idea as to what "63,000" additional users actually translates to in daily/service figures


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,047 ✭✭✭ questionmark?


    DaCor wrote: »
    Those numbers look great but as with a lot of IE's numbers you need to take them with a pinch of salt

    Take Cork/Cobh, at 63,000 additional users

    /52 weeks = 1211 users per week
    /7 days = 173 users per day
    /46 services a day = 4 additional users per service

    Very simplistic calcs that dont account for BH's, weekend variations in timetables etc, but I think rounding up from 3.76 to 4 accounts fairly for those variations.

    This gives you an idea as to what "63,000" additional users actually translates to in daily/service figures


    Sigh. I understand the maths but well done in turning a positive into a negative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,082 ✭✭✭✭ DaCor


    Sigh. I understand the maths but well done in turning a positive into a negative.

    Its not a negative, the numbers are indeed up. Thats going in the right direction, no faulting that

    I just take issue with how IE announce these things and like to put it into perspective by relating the numbers to figures people can legitimately point to and say "oh wow, thats huge" or "whats the fuss about"


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ Isambard


    I hope you're right, Cork has been getting an improved rail line with these stations for at least the past 15 years, possibly longer, so I'll believe it when I see it.

    Won't it also mean increased journey times on the inter city services to Dublin and Tralee unless they're going to put in extra tracks as far as the last commuter station?

    Also a missed opportunity to not extend the line as far as Youghal, with no sign of any improvements to the N25 any time soon and Midleton-Youghal being so congested at the best of times, it's surely a good idea especially if the Greens are serious about us meeting the famous 50% CO2 reduction targets by 2030.

    with one train an hour each way on double track for most of the day, capacity should be no problem.


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