What happens if you can’t pay?

karlitob

Am I correct in saying that these are civil cases?

What happens if a person just doesn’t have the money?

If they do, Who gets paid first - plaintiff, plaintiff solicitor, defence solicitor?

If they can afford a bit of the full quantum, is it paid out to those 3 on a proportionate basis?

https://m.independent.ie/news/christian-jessen-i-am-down-to-my-last-20k-says-tv-doctor-after-being-ordered-to-pay-arlene-foster-125k-in-libel-damages-40485046.html

coylemj

karlitob wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that these are civil cases?

Yes. But we shouldn't have to click a link to know what you're referring to. OP posted a link to an article in the Indo..

Celebrity TV doctor Christian Jessen, who has been ordered to pay Arlene Foster £125,000 in libel damages, says he only has £20,000.

karlitob wrote: »

What happens if a person just doesn’t have the money?

Libel is an expensive business and in most cases, a plaintiff won't sue someone unless they have a reasonable expectation of winning and that the defendant has assets which can be chased if he refuses/won't pay the damages that are awarded.

In Arlene's case, the defendant is a TV personality so despite the beal bocht garbage that he's spinning, my guess is that he owns a fairly decent pad in London. So he was worth suiing.

Someone with deep pockets like Denis O'Brien can afford to sue just to make a point and intimidate newspaper editors and journalists, he can afford to lose but most people can not.

karlitob

coylemj wrote: »

Yes. But we shouldn't have to click a link to know what you're referring to. OP posted a link to an article in the Indo..





Libel is an expensive business and in most cases, a plaintiff won't sue someone unless they have a reasonable expectation of winning and that the defendant has assets which can be chased if he refuses/won't pay the damages that are awarded.

In Arlene's case, the defendant is a TV personality so despite the beal bocht garbage that he's spinning, my guess is that he owns a fairly decent pad in London. So he was worth suiing.

Someone with deep pockets like Denis O'Brien can afford to sue just to make a point and intimidate newspaper editors and journalists, he can afford to lose but most people can not.

Thanks.

But my question was what happens if you *can’t* pay.

Padre_Pio

karlitob wrote: »

Thanks.

But my question was what happens if you *can’t* pay.

Court appointed bailiff starts seizing assets, or community service or prison.

Pawwed Rig

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Court appointed bailiff starts seizing assets, or community service or prison.

If the person has no assets it is just recorded by the credit bureau and they walk away scot free ime

Padre_Pio

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If the person has no assets it is just recorded by the credit bureau and they walk away scott free ime

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-prison-service-committals-report-5122960-Jun2020/

People go to prison. Doubt they stay there long though.
I think I'd prefer a month in the clink over paying a 100k fine.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Padre_Pio wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-prison-service-committals-report-5122960-Jun2020/

People go to prison. Doubt they stay there long though.
I think I'd prefer a month in the clink over paying a 100k fine.

A court ordered fine is different to a settlement in a civil case.

Pawwed Rig

Padre_Pio wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-prison-service-committals-report-5122960-Jun2020/

People go to prison. Doubt they stay there long though.
I think I'd prefer a month in the clink over paying a 100k fine.

A few hours being processed in the prison and then out the same day. There is little appetite in this country for debtors prisons and if a person does not much care about whether they get a criminal record or not there is not much incentive to pay.
In this case the guy will have adequate assets so a sheriff or similar will most likely move against him if he holds out.

Shield

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

In this case the guy will have adequate assets so a sheriff or similar will most likely move against him if he holds out.

Not only this, but he'd also be fixed with the costs of such an application.

coylemj

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Court appointed bailiff starts seizing assets, or community service or prison.

They closed the debtors’ prison a long time ago.

karlitob

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If the person has no assets it is just recorded by the credit bureau and they walk away scot free ime

Simple as that then. I had wondered so.

I take the point that you wouldn’t take this case if the defendant didn’t have the means.

Presumably - solicitors from both sides would be cautious about taking on the case if they knew they wouldn’t get paid, or even decline.

Is there a preferential creditor type process whereby the plaintiff, and solicitors from both sides take a pro rata payment from the assets of the defendant. If s/he owed 900€k in total, only had 300€k would all 3 parties get €100k?

Finally, you also said there was little appetite for a debtors prison in ireland. Do you think that such a thing is needed?

Thanks.

Peregrinus

Padre_Pio wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-prison-service-committals-report-5122960-Jun2020/

People go to prison. Doubt they stay there long though.
I think I'd prefer a month in the clink over paying a 100k fine.

This isn't a court-ordered fine; it's an award of damages. The options that are available for collecting any other debt are available for this one. They don't include imprisonment.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If the person has no assets it is just recorded by the credit bureau and they walk away scot free ime

The debt remains due, and if they have any assets or income at a later date there can be further attempts to collect.

Plus, of course, the debtor won't get any loans or credit from anyone. This doesn't result in any payments to the creditor, but it can be a serious and continuing problem for the debtor.

Pawwed Rig

Peregrinus wrote: »

Plus, of course, the debtor won't get any loans or credit from anyone. This doesn't result in any payments to the creditor, but it can be a serious and continuing problem for the debtor.

Not if they go back to their country of origin. The rules are there for the locals with a bit of cash. They do not really apply to a large section of society.

Peregrinus

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not if they go back to their country of origin. The rules are there for the locals with a bit of cash. They do not really apply to a large section of society.

An Irish judgment debt can be registered and pursued anywhere in the EU, using whatever enforcement methods are available in the country concerned for judgement debts. And, once registered, it will have the same consequences for creditworthiness as a locally-obtained judgment.

Pawwed Rig

Peregrinus wrote: »

An Irish judgment debt can be registered and pursued anywhere in the EU, using whatever enforcement methods are available in the country concerned for judgement debts. And, once registered, it will have the same consequences for creditworthiness as a locally-obtained judgment.

Which is fine for larger debts but not worth pursuing for an ordinary joe who is owed a couple of thousand euro.

With unlimited resources I am sure these things can be pursued to the end of the earth but the reality is that if someone doesn't pay and do not have resources there are few consequences.
Would someone who has a judgement in Ireland for a couple of grand see any benefit on registering the debt in Poland? How would they follow up in future? The legal fees would very quickly be in excess of any amounts outstanding and still unlikely to be received. The phrase throwing bad money after bad money comes to mind.

Peregrinus

Yes, all of that is correct. For a comparatively modest debt, the overheads of collecting in another EU member state may not be justified by the amount you'd recover. You'd also have to factor in a realistic assessment of whether you'd recover anything; if the debtor has few or no assets then the real obstacle to collection is not where he lives, but the fact that he isn't a mark.

Of course, you can register the judgment in Poland (or wherever) anyway. The cost of simply registering it is not likely to be great and, while it may not lead to any recovery, it may give you some small but savage satisfaction to make life awkward for him, which a registered judgment will do.

realdanbreen

coylemj wrote: »

Yes. But we shouldn't have to click a link to know what you're referring to. OP posted a link to an article in the Indo..





Libel is an expensive business and in most cases, a plaintiff won't sue someone unless they have a reasonable expectation of winning and that the defendant has assets which can be chased if he refuses/won't pay the damages that are awarded.

In Arlene's case, the defendant is a TV personality so despite the beal bocht garbage that he's spinning, my guess is that he owns a fairly decent pad in London. So he was worth suiing.

Someone with deep pockets like Denis O'Brien can afford to sue just to make a point and intimidate newspaper editors and journalists, he can afford to lose but most people can not.

What's your address, Denis O' Brien wants to send something to you.

BattleCorp

The moral of the story is don't defame anybody on the internet unless you have either:

a. no financial resources

or

b. have an awful lot of financial resources

karlitob

BattleCorp wrote: »

The moral of the story is don't defame anybody on the internet unless you have either:

a. no financial resources

or

b. have an awful lot of financial resources

I think the moral of the story is not to defame anyone.

Claw Hammer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If the person has no assets it is just recorded by the credit bureau and they walk away scot free ime

It has nothing to do with the credit bureau. Judgement will be entered against the person and the fact of judgement may be published. Very few people will give credit to a person with an unsatisfied judgement. A person who fails to satisfy a judgement commits an act of bankruptcy. The person may be subject to bankruptcy proceedings, instalment orders or seizure of goods or lands.

L1011

Jessen is seeking crowdfunding to pay the fine + some costs (he's said anything over 150k will be donated but he's only got ~8k so far)

Do any of the odd ancient provisions against litigation funding prevent you from doing this? I'd presume not, if they are even the same in NI as here by this stage.

Peregrinus

L1011 wrote: »

Jessen is seeking crowdfunding to pay the fine + some costs (he's said anything over 150k will be donated but he's only got ~8k so far)

Do any of the odd ancient provisions against litigation funding prevent you from doing this? I'd presume not, if they are even the same in NI as here by this stage.

Jessen is based in England, where the crime of champerty was abolished in 1967. I doubt that it would be crime in England to provide champertous suppport for a case in another jurisdiction, given that it is not a crime to do so for a case in England.

Pawwed Rig

Why was Jessen involved anyway? What skin does he have in the game?

Dempo1

coylemj wrote: »

They closed the debtors’ prison a long time ago.

This is true but a plaintiff in a civil case coukd seek a committal order if a judgement has not been adhered too, debt paid etc, I know this is extreme but isn't this option open?

Dempo1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why was Jessen involved anyway? What skin does he have in the game?

Wasn't it a tweet he wrote that caused all this?

Pawwed Rig

Dempo1 wrote: »

Wasn't it a tweet he wrote that caused all this?

Yeah I know but what was he at? He always struck me as a Kennsington toff. It seems unusual for someone like him to stick his head above the parapet and have a political opinion on anything other than saying right on to BLM tweets.
Just seems a bit odd to me

Dempo1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yeah I know but what was he at? He always struck me as a Kennsington toff. It seems unusual for someone like him to stick his head above the parapet and have a political opinion on anything other than saying right on to BLM tweets.
Just seems a bit odd to me

Yes I hear you, quite a silly nonsensical tweet in reality personally speaking I'd be sympathetic to anyone who was accused of having an affair with Arlene what a horrid thought

twowheelsonly

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

A few hours being processed in the prison and then out the same day. There is little appetite in this country for debtors prisons and if a person does not much care about whether they get a criminal record or not there is not much incentive to pay.
In this case the guy will have adequate assets so a sheriff or similar will most likely move against him if he holds out.

Highlighted part is not true. On a Debtors warrant you do your time to the day unless you discharge the debt in the meantime.

Dempo1 wrote: »

This is true but a plaintiff in a civil case coukd seek a committal order if a judgement has not been adhered too, debt paid etc, I know this is extreme but isn't this option open?

It definitely is in Ireland, not sure about the UK.

Peregrinus

If somebody gets a judgment against you, there are various options for enforcing it. They can't move straight to commital proceedings, but they can get there in two steps - first, seek and obtain an instalment order requiring you to pay the debt in stages. The court looks at your means, income, etc before making the order, and won't make an order if it isn't satisfied that you have the means to pay. So they can't get an instalment order if, for example, you are unemployed and living on benefits, or working a minimum wage job and supporting your spouse and dependent children. Secondly, if you fail to honour the instalment order, they can seek a committal order but to get it they'll have to prove that you deliberately failed to obey the instalment order, rather than simply being unable to. Also the judge will need to be satisfied that there is no other way they could collect the debt - you have no goods that can be seized, etc.

Claw Hammer

Peregrinus wrote: »

If somebody gets a judgment against you, there are various options for enforcing it. They can't move straight to commital proceedings, but they can get there in two steps - first, seek and obtain an instalment order requiring you to pay the debt in stages. The court looks at your means, income, etc before making the order, and won't make an order if it isn't satisfied that you have the means to pay. So they can't get an instalment order if, for example, you are unemployed and living on benefits, or working a minimum wage job and supporting your spouse and dependent children. Secondly, if you fail to honour the instalment order, they can seek a committal order but to get it they'll have to prove that you deliberately failed to obey the instalment order, rather than simply being unable to. Also the judge will need to be satisfied that there is no other way they could collect the debt - you have no goods that can be seized, etc.

If you fail to give veidence of means you can be committed for contempt.

coylemj

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yeah I know but what was he at? He always struck me as a Kennsington toff. It seems unusual for someone like him to stick his head above the parapet and have a political opinion on anything other than saying right on to BLM tweets.
Just seems a bit odd to me

Jessen is very publicly gay and has a significant public profile as a TV personality. A while ago, there was a vote in the NI Assembly to outlaw gay conversion therapy. Arlene abstained on the vote, a relatively radical step for the leader of a very conservative ('traditional family values') political party. When she would have been expected (by the DUP grassroots) to vote for the bill .

Her position as First Minister of NI meant that her stance got publicity in GB so Jessen had a go at her by propogating a false rumour about her personal life. Foolishly, it never occurred to him that his public profile would give the tweet legs and expose him to the libel case that ensued.

His initial action was bad enough but failing to respond with an immediate retraction and an abject apology meant that Arlene had no option but to sue him. By the time he listened to proper legal advice, it was too late.