Another victim of wokism - was this fair?

jetsonx

This is a quite shocking. The man was only airing his real-life observation but he gets the sack over it.

Was this fair?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/chairman-of-power-company-resigns-after-comments-about-africa-1.4576783

Ubbquittious

There is probably more to it than just that. Like someone having been itching for years to get an excuse to get rid of him.

Fritzbox

jetsonx wrote: »

This is a quite shocking. The man was only airing his real-life observation but he gets the sack over it.

Was this fair?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/chairman-of-power-company-resigns-after-comments-about-africa-1.4576783

Was he sacked - it doesn't mention it?

It does say that he resigned - he is 74 years of age.

dxhound2005

Nor does it say who dubbed the remarks as being "Climate Colonialism". That would be an important piece of information.

after controversial remarks regarding investment in Africa that were dubbed “climate colonialism”.

To be fair the article doesn't say he was sacked, it said he resigned. Of course there's the other old chestnut is "did he jump or was he pushed" but that's not the point here I suppose.

The thing that would interest me a lot more would be the permanently offended classes explaining exactly what part of "referring to a lack of a tradition of democracy in Africa" was mistaken. Did the man say something wrong there? If so, what was it?

KevRossi

If someone made seriously disparaging remarks about you and your company would you deal with them? Would you deal with them if there were plenty of other options available?

No, neither would I. So Mainstream Renewable Power got rid of him as he damaged their brand. No other reason. Call it 'woke' if you want, I just call it common sense and protecting their brand.

His age has nothing to do with it, if he was 50 and made the same remarks he'd be gone too.

dxhound2005

Nothing wrong with that. For the first twenty or so years of his life, Africa was carved up into European colonies, not democratic nations.

Gatling

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that. For the first twenty or so years of his life, Africa was carved up into European colonies, not democratic nations.

But Africa politics from local to main government are all run on a tribal basis , nothing what was said in the article should be considered offensive ,

Jerry Attrick

Elder lemons (like me) may remember Eddie O'Connor being 'controversial' many years ago!

He was Chairman of Bord na Mona where he was doing a fine job, but was stitched up by a series of leaks (probably by jealous civil servants and BnM insiders) about him abusing his expense account; eventually, he walked the plank. Best thing he ever did, as it turned out!

Matt Cooper's article tells the story well: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20052291.html

Gregor Samsa

Gatling wrote: »

But Africa politics from local to main government are all run on a tribal basis , nothing what was said in the article should be considered offensive ,

But it could be considered detrimental to business interests in Africa. It’s not like this guy is just some random employee on some company that was overheard making comments on the state of democracy in Africa. He was the chairman of a company that is actively trying to court business from African governments that he described as tribal and uneducated. How true it is is irrelevant - he’s a liability to his own business. Companies don’t keep liabilities like that about.

It’s the same as when chairman Gerald Ratner described the products his jewellery chain sold as “total crap”. It was true, but it caused the near collapse of the entire business. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner)

Arturo Delgado

On the face of it, there is nothing he said that's controversial. It's largely true. There may have been reasons needed to move him on, and we're not privy to that. A bit of a non story really.

AndrewJRenko

jetsonx wrote: »

This is a quite shocking. The man was only airing his real-life observation but he gets the sack over it.

Was this fair?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/chairman-of-power-company-resigns-after-comments-about-africa-1.4576783

Do you think you could send him in to negotiate a deal in an African country with this on his record?

Dyr

Map of the state of democracy in Africa.

The man was sacked for not perpetuating a hyper reality that the media try to enforce.

Gregor Samsa

^ what I’ve learned from that map is that there’s one guy in all of Africa who’s a democrat, and his name is Maurice.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

Map of the state of democracy in Africa.

The man was sacked for not perpetuating a hyper reality that the media try to enforce.

Except he wasn't sacked.

'Woke' people have nothing on the 'I'm just saying it as it is' crowd when it comes to getting offended easily.

biko

During an onstage panel discussion on investment, Dr O’Connor had said: “The great problem that we found trying to electrify Africa with renewable energy has been the lack of capability.

“When you go and talk to the ministers and the prime ministers and the ministers for finance, they do not have that tradition of democracy.

“They are largely tribal societies; they don’t have the educated cadres who are going to be able to do this. I see if we get our policies right in the west we certainly could do it but we have the big problem and that problem is the lack of profitability.”

I don't see the problem with this statement but it's hard to know these days what the latest wrong is.

tjhook

If the man had said "Young people are all snowflakes" or "women aren't great drivers", I'd think sacking/forcing to resign would be too much. people are entitled to opinions.

But if the power company is servicing or planning to serve the African market (as it appears from the article), then he's put himself in an untenable position. You can't insult your potential customer base like that.

He may or may not be correct, but the company has a responsibility to protect itself.

is_that_so

biko wrote: »

I don't see the problem with this statement but it's hard to know these days what the latest wrong is.

This line! It jumped straight out at me! Guaranteed to put many, many noses out of joint, especially the suggestion that they are not educated. Locals can say and think this, but outsiders doing it is asking for trouble.

"They are largely tribal societies; they don’t have the educated cadres who are going to be able to do this"

Dyr

Tell me how wrote: »

Except he wasn't sacked.

'Woke' people have nothing on the 'I'm just saying it as it is' crowd when it comes to getting offended easily.

Ah right, he took it on himself to step down entirely off his own bat.


Of course, you don't believe that any more than I do but I do recognise that your position does tend to require a lot of bad faith arguments to be tenable.

Stovepipe

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you think you could send him in to negotiate a deal in an African country with this on his record?

Nobody in Africa would pay a blind bit of notice to this. EoC would be welcomed with open arms,especially if he brought "gifts" with him. A few Mercs in the right hands, a few bob in the right bank accounts and plenty of loose change to grease the wheels. Nothing happens in Africa until the right people are paid off. Eddie was completely right.

Stovepipe

is_that_so wrote: »

This line! It jumped straight out at me! Guaranteed to put many, many noses out of joint, especially the suggestion that they are not educated. Locals can say and think this, but outsiders doing it is asking for trouble.

"They are largely tribal societies; they don’t have the educated cadres who are going to be able to do this"

He is completely correct. Africa is ruled by the tribal mentality and anyone of any tribe who gets up the food chain is expected to help his fellow tribesmen, to the detriment of outsiders,as required. The lack of "educated cadres" is also bang on; African countries generate insufficient quantities of skilled engineers/technicians/doctors/specialists to serve their own communities, on a per head basis. Some of that is down to lack of funds or lack of schools or staff or equipment and those that do get trained invariably leave for better conditions elsewhere, which is why third parties like Western NGOs/Missionaries/Church schools do the bulk of the educating in many African countries. Some of it is also down to enforcing control on populations by controlling access to education/medicine/movement/transport/infrastructure,etc by Africans on Africans. Some people just don't like having the truth spoken to them.

Hego Damask

Reality war.

What he said is true, the image above prooves it, yet we have to live in this orwellian 1984 universe where lies are the truth...

is_that_so

Stovepipe wrote: »

He is completely correct. Africa is ruled by the tribal mentality and anyone of any tribe who gets up the food chain is expected to help his fellow tribesmen, to the detriment of outsiders,as required. The lack of "educated cadres" is also bang on; African countries generate insufficient quantities of skilled engineers/technicians/doctors/specialists to serve their own communities, on a per head basis. Some of that is down to lack of funds or lack of schools or staff or equipment and those that do get trained invariably leave for better conditions elsewhere, which is why third parties like Western NGOs/Missionaries/Church schools do the bulk of the educating in many African countries. Some of it is also down to enforcing control on populations by controlling access to education/medicine/movement/transport/infrastructure,etc by Africans on Africans. Some people just don't like having the truth spoken to them.

When you are looking for business from them, truth like this hurts! It's poor judgement. A wishy washy "different challenges" commentary could have offered something similar.

AdrianBalboa

Once again the “tell it like it is,” “leave it to the free market” merchants get their snowflake feathers #triggered by a non-story.

An unwritten rule in any business is that you don’t slag any potential customers off publicly. Who remembers the Cristal fiasco when their managering director said their hip-hop customer base we’re unwelcome? That was in 2006, it wasn’t “woke nonsense” then and this isn’t woke nonsense now.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/rap-stars-lose-taste-cristal-after-owner-s-attack-bling-6098086.html

Church on Tuesday

biko wrote: »

I don't see the problem with this statement but it's hard to know these days what the latest wrong is.

That's because there is nothing wrong with that statement, we just live in the age of pandering now.

AndrewJRenko

Hego Damask wrote: »

Reality war.

What he said is true, the image above prooves it, yet we have to live in this orwellian 1984 universe where lies are the truth...

Do salespeople generally go round telling customers what gobsh1tes they are in this Orwellian world of yours?

Purple is a Fruit

Even though it's true for some parts of Africa, it's hardly fair to apply it to the entire continent. He was probably forced to resign but at 74 with plenty of achievements he should be fine.

dxhound2005

Stovepipe wrote: »

He is completely correct. Africa is ruled by the tribal mentality and anyone of any tribe who gets up the food chain is expected to help his fellow tribesmen, to the detriment of outsiders,as required. The lack of "educated cadres" is also bang on; African countries generate insufficient quantities of skilled engineers/technicians/doctors/specialists to serve their own communities, on a per head basis. Some of that is down to lack of funds or lack of schools or staff or equipment and those that do get trained invariably leave for better conditions elsewhere, which is why third parties like Western NGOs/Missionaries/Church schools do the bulk of the educating in many African countries. Some of it is also down to enforcing control on populations by controlling access to education/medicine/movement/transport/infrastructure,etc by Africans on Africans. Some people just don't like having the truth spoken to them.

That's impressive knowledge about a Continent which has about 50 countries and is three times the size of Europe.

AllForIt

I didn't read the article, but, I don't think it's the the case to say that becasue African nations do not have cultures that are conducive to doing business is the same as saying they are gob****es or backward.

Which is actually an even worse state of affairs, becasue if the culture is the problem it's not going to magically fix itself over time. It would be better they were backward becasue that's fixable.

dxhound2005

There were empires and very advanced civilisations in Africa before colonisation. Egypt, Ethiopia, Mali, Zimbabwe and many others.

Since the colonials mostly left there has been great progress, not least in education.

Strumms

Hego Damask wrote: »

Reality war.

What he said is true, the image above prooves it, yet we have to live in this orwellian 1984 universe where lies are the truth...

Truth, there was nothing wrong with what he said. Unfortunately there are a thick wankball cohort of non thinkers who would rather others tell them lies that don’t offend as opposed to truths that might ruffle feathers ..

TheValeyard

Gatling wrote: »

But Africa politics from local to main government are all run on a tribal basis , nothing what was said in the article should be considered offensive ,

As someone who dealt with some African local governments many moons ago, this is very true and corruption in many parts is simply a matter of survival. Literally in cases there's a bribe for the bribe.

jetsonx

Stovepipe wrote: »

Nobody in Africa would pay a blind bit of notice to this. EoC would be welcomed with open arms,especially if he brought "gifts" with him. A few Mercs in the right hands, a few bob in the right bank accounts and plenty of loose change to grease the wheels. Nothing happens in Africa until the right people are paid off. Eddie was completely right.

From what I know about Africa. This sounds on the button.

But, there no way the woke brigade will admit this goes on.

Stovepipe

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's impressive knowledge about a Continent which has about 50 countries and is three times the size of Europe.

Feel free to point out any African country which is not riddled with corruption/awash with guns/grossly inefficient from a technical point of view. I worked on oil and gas projects with African and Arab engineers/techs/mechs and quite frankly,some of them shouldn't have been allowed near a screwdriver. Plenty of good ones but enough dodgy ones that it kept you on your toes. Maintenance of equipment and health and safety were concepts that some regarded as an amusing afterthough/interesting concept. The Syrians,of several Arab nationalities, were probably the deftest mechs I met. They were quick to learn, eager to learn and get on. Iraqis were also good,as, believe it or not, Saddam Hussein promoted education for the common man and the lads I met were good... Other nationalities, less so. Indians and Pakistanis were technically competent, always had usable English but spent so much time aggravating each other that it was easier to do work without them. The two most racist were,to no-one's surprise, a White South African and to my personal surprise, a Ugandan, who seemed to detest all other Africans on a sliding scale but he especially hated Nigerians, to the point where he had to be taken off one project for his own safety. I would reckon that if you want to lift Africa out of the mire, then you need as much education as they can absorb and generate more doctors/teachers/engineers,etc,etc and drag the continent away from the gun and the bribe mentalities.

~Rebel~

I think one of the most important aspects - that oddly seems not to have been mentioned here - is that the company was just acquired by a Norwegian group.

I dare say for a 74 year old who was already shuffled out of the top job there 4 years ago, it was exactly the wrong time to insult a potential new market, with the new bosses only just in the door and likely wanting nothing but good press after their takeover.

And sure look, a bit of common sense... in business it’s not always wise to state a truth bluntly. How you frame your argument is as important as the argument itself. Starting things off on an unnecessary sour/condescending note in how you chose to pick your words isn’t a great call.

jmayo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that. For the first twenty or so years of his life, Africa was carved up into European colonies, not democratic nations.

Would you call most of the countries in Africa democracies today.

Most of them have had 40 to 50 years to sort things out, but yet all we have had is incessant infighting, civil wars, tribal warfare, one dictatorship followed by another.

On the other hand Asian countries have grown into economic powerhouses.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do salespeople generally go round telling customers what gobsh1tes they are in this Orwellian world of yours?

Grease the right hands and they couldn't give a flying fook.
Ask anyone that actually does business in Africa what it is like.
Hell ask an African for their honest opinion.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There were empires and very advanced civilisations in Africa before colonisation. Egypt, Ethiopia, Mali, Zimbabwe and many others.

Since the colonials mostly left there has been great progress, not least in education.

Does the progress in education make up for the wars and dictatorships?

dxhound2005

Africa is on a different scale to Europe. The French did not make much of a go of Algeria when they ran the place. The straight lines on the map left behind by colonialism do not help in getting democracy established. Europe is full of tribes as well, Russians, Ukranians, Poles French etc.

Algeria is approximately 2,381,740 sq km, while France is approximately 551,500 sq km, making France 23.16% the size of Algeria. Meanwhile, the population of Algeria is ~43.0 million people (24.9 million more people live in France).

mcmoustache

Hego Damask wrote: »

Reality war.

What he said is true, the image above prooves it, yet we have to live in this orwellian 1984 universe where lies are the truth...

Who's telling you that Africa's full of rosey democracies? I'll bring up their cancellation myself at the next Wokist committee meeting.

riclad

he is being honest, many african countrys are not democracys,
if you want a contract you pay bribes, or employ the relative of someone who is in the ruling party or tribe who is paid as a consultant,advisor etc
european countrys have a standard of bidding for government contracts
which is there to ensure the tax payer gets a fair deal and to ensure theres no incentive to bribe govertment officials
its like if you accuse the israeli government of mistreating arabs or bombing civilians you can be accused of being a racist

Strumms

12 out of the top 20 most corrupt countries in the world are African countries. That’s according to years of research and evidence gathering on behalf of the CPI.. (corruption percentage index).

Places cannot be corrupt, people, administrations and their mindsets certainly can... not something we should be keen to import..

dxhound2005

His company is in business in Africa. Putting on my hat as an instant expert on all things African, I would say he came up against some locals who were looking for a better deal. His rant was sour grapes when they turned out not to be as stupid as he imagined.

https://www.mainstreamrp.com/regions/africa/

It would not be unknown for European companies to exploit African countries for their own gain. Shell Oil in Nigeria for example.

Stovepipe

Shell can operate in Nigeria because they pay the most.

dxhound2005

Strumms wrote: »

12 out of the top 20 most corrupt countries in the world are African countries. That’s according to years of research and evidence gathering on behalf of the CPI.. (corruption percentage index).

Places cannot be corrupt, people, administrations and their mindsets certainly can... not something we should be keen to import..

It's Corruption Perceptions Index, not a percentage measurement. I have seen many posts on Boards from people who perceive that Ireland is the most corrupt country in the world.

Jim2007

jetsonx wrote: »

This is a quite shocking. The man was only airing his real-life observation but he gets the sack over it.

Was this fair?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/chairman-of-power-company-resigns-after-comments-about-africa-1.4576783

If you were an employee or investor in the company he represents would you think it was fair that this man’s dumb ass nonsense cost you your bonus, pay increase, job, loss of investment etc... even though you had no part in it?

The man was there to promote the company he represents not cause it serious embarrassment and disadvantage it commercially. Once he opened his mouth there was only ever going to be one outcome.

Tell me how

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's Corruption Perceptions Index, not a percentage measurement. I have seen many posts on Boards from people who perceive that Ireland is the most corrupt country in the world.

That's white collar crime, it's black market type shenanigans that many here are most motivated to complain about if you know what I mean.

micosoft

is_that_so wrote: »

"They are largely tribal societies; they don’t have the educated cadres who are going to be able to do this"

And how long ago is it since and Englishman said this about us? Last Tuesday for me. Especially as relates to Northern Ireland but stick Catholic, Celtic, Drunkard for Tribal and it's said about the south as well. How quick we Irish are to forget not just that others said this about us but how incredibly offended we get when a Brit or other is condescending towards us. Perhaps we are the original "Woke" society?

A lot of hypocrites tbh on the Woke piece. I've never seen anyone as offended as English Gammon when you point out it's merely a statement of fact that they go bright pink when exercised about whatever the Daily Mail is on about. It's a deliberate distortion of the term Woke which merely means don't be a dick and use banal stereotypes about people different to you.

In any case the specific issue here is that if these are your customers you don't offend them. Just like Albert Reynolds got upset at the tribunal when counsel implied "even the dogs on the street knew about this" as Albert pointedly did not want to offend his best customers. It's free market capitalism at it's finest and nothing to do with being Woke.