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Rifle mag capacity (Split thread from target forum).

  • 08-05-2021 11:52am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    MOD NOTE

    Split off from target forum thread discussing magazine capacities and legalities.

    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Virtually impossible to get in plus ten shot capacity in the EU anymore. No one will sell them or ship within the EU ...Its ten or nothing:(

    In fairness it is illegal to be in possession of any centrefire rifle mag in excess of 10 rounds, now legislation enacted here and as it is a European wide law with a few exceptions folks should be aware of the hefty fine €5,000 and compulsory revocation of license as well as a potential jail sentence.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    smmember20 wrote: »
    In fairness it is illegal to be in possession of any centrefire rifle mag in excess of 10 rounds, now legislation enacted here and as it is a European wide law with a few exceptions folks should be aware of the hefty fine €5,000 and compulsory revocation of license as well as a potential jail sentence.

    BUT not if it is a bolt action, MARS/Lever release, Pump or any other action, other than semi-auto. Gotta keep that in mind too.:)

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    BUT not if it is a bolt action, MARS/Lever release, Pump or any other action, other than semi-auto. Gotta keep that in mind too.:)

    I thought from section 2F in the SI of 420 covered non semiautos aswell, as repeaters?
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/420/made/en/print

    Open to correction on that though.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    I thought from section 2F in the SI of 420 covered non semiautos aswell, as repeaters?
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/420/made/en/print

    Open to correction on that though.

    2F appears to only apply to Category B firearms, listed below. Looks like that section at least doesn't apply to bolt action, Mars or Lever release rifles.

    Category B — Firearms subject to authorization

    1.

    Semi-automatic or repeating short firearms.

    2.

    Single-shot short firearms with centre-fire percussion.

    3.

    Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is less than 28 cm.

    4.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.

    5.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.

    6.

    Repeating and semi-automatic long firearms with smooth-bore barrels not exceeding 60 cm in length.

    7.

    Semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    2F appears to only apply to Category B firearms, listed below. Looks like that section at least doesn't apply to bolt action, Mars or Lever release rifles.

    Repeating being the word there.

    From SI 21/2008 -
    “repeating firearms” means firearms that are loaded and reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by a manually-operated mechanism;

    Thus covering bolt action, mars, lever release, etc.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Repeating being the word there.

    From SI 21/2008 -

    Thus covering bolt action, mars, lever release, etc.

    I still don't think so.

    Category B — Firearms subject to authorization

    1.

    Semi-automatic or repeating short firearms. - This is talking about short firearms so this doesn't apply.

    2.

    Single-shot short firearms with centre-fire percussion. - Doesn't apply.

    3.

    Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is less than 28 cm. - Doesn't apply as again it is talking about short firearms.

    4.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds. - This is talking about semi-auto so doesn't apply.

    5.

    Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds. - This is talking about semi auto so doesn't apply.

    6.

    Repeating and semi-automatic long firearms with smooth-bore barrels not exceeding 60 cm in length. - This is talking about long guns with smooth-bore barrels so doesn't really apply in most cases as rifles aren't smoothbore.

    7.

    Semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms. - Semi auto again so it doesn't apply.


    I'm always happy to be corrected but I don't see any of the above covering normal bolt action rifles/Mars/lever release rifles.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    You are reading the firearms act 2008 which is basically copying in the above from the EU firearms directive 1991[?]
    You need to check out the new EU directive of 2017 and the corresponding new national act in 2019...:)
    The definitions of the firearms have changed in the EU directive.

    Semi-autos are now either Cat A or Cat C3
    Cat A prohibited with a magazine either fixed or capable of accepting in long arms above 10 rounds or 20 rounds in short arms
    Cat C3 semi-auto with a mag capacity of 10 or 20 rounds in either long or short arms respectively.

    There is no mention in either national law or the directive of this applying to any other action type or a calibre of .22. Bar here in Ireland with the 10 round .22 mag capacity in rifles or the prohibition on pistols above .22 long rifle.

    Your point 6 applies to shotguns.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    BUT not if it is a bolt action, MARS/Lever release, Pump or any other action, other than semi-auto. Gotta keep that in mind too.:)

    Exactly, and what differentiates a repeating magazine from a semi auto one? I think Ruger make a rifle that accepts AR mags, so if it's in your .223 bolt action it's ok, but it's illegal if it's in your AR? What a joke for a piece of legislation, the EU has better things to be doing than making sh*te like this.

    Let's also not forget that it refers to "loading devices" but neglects to define what they are. I've said this before and I'll say it again, when I hear loading device I think of those boards you use to speed load magazines. Also this would only apply to magazines and tubular magazines because of the definition under the 2008 SI, thus making belt fed semi autos not legally semi autos and hence no magazine restrictions.

    At the end of the day, a case could definitely be made for why semi auto magazines don't have a capacity limit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Exactly, and what differentiates a repeating magazine from a semi auto one? I think Ruger make a rifle that accepts AR mags, so if it's in your .223 bolt action it's ok, but it's illegal if it's in your AR? What a joke for a piece of legislation, the EU has better things to be doing than making sh*te like this.

    Sing it! It only took 3.5 years of my and a few hundred others lives to get this mess to this position in Brussels.They could have done a lot worse believe you me until all the shooting orgs finally told them of the consequences..
    And here's the bigger joke. IF you had said Mossberg rifle[ not Ruger] that can tale Ar mags AND had an AR15 as well...You are in the same trouble as having a Glock pistol and a carbine capable of accepting Glock mags at the same address.:mad:
    Let's also not forget that it refers to "loading devices" but neglects to define what they are
    .
    Simply because it is a ****e EU translation from that polyglot mess in Brussels.There wasn't a universal language agreement on what a "magazine " is in the documentation so they put this catch-all wording down.:mad:
    Also, this would only apply to magazines and tubular magazines because of the definition under the 2008 SI, thus making belt fed semi-autos not legally semi-autos and hence no magazine restrictions.

    Very grey area in this EU legislation. Does loading device cover belts? Probably,as the French did have some converted to SA old ww2 keepsakes, which had to be converted to straight pull[Cat C] and the French fudged EU legislation when it suited them too] So they can use unlimited belt fed ammo .

    At the end of the day, a case could definitely be made for why semi auto magazines don't have a capacity limit.

    Certainly,as originally the standard factory issue for these was 20 rounds from the get-go,and its only because of Californian 1980s "feel good " legislation that this 10 round nonsense stated.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Sing it! It only took 3.5 years of my and a few hundred others lives to get this mess to this position in Brussels.They could have done a lot worse believe you me until all the shooting orgs finally told them of the consequences.

    Yeah, I heard that they wanted to ban all Cat A firearms and all AR or AK style rifles. So things could be much worse, but they would be much better if the EU couldn't do anything like this.
    And here's the bigger joke. IF you had said Mossberg rifle[ not Ruger] that can tale Ar mags AND had an AR15 as well...You are in the same trouble as having a Glock pistol and a carbine capable of accepting Glock mags at the same address.:mad:

    I could have sworn that the Ruger American Ranch Rifle could take AR mags, but that's besides the point. I had a read through the legislation again, and I think that you would be in trouble even if you didn't have an AR. To paraphrase it says that you can't have any mags capable of being used in a SA CF rifle.

    Simply because it is a ****e EU translation from that polyglot mess in Brussels.There wasn't a universal language agreement on what a "magazine " is in the documentation so they put this catch-all wording down.:mad:

    Ironic how they couldn't agree on the definition of magazine, so they make up a term with no meaning:D:D:D
    Very grey area in this EU legislation. Does loading device cover belts? Probably,as the French did have some converted to SA old ww2 keepsakes, which had to be converted to straight pull[Cat C] and the French fudged EU legislation when it suited them too] So they can use unlimited belt fed ammo .

    I personally don't think loading device incorporates any sort of magazine or belt, but under Irish legislation it doesn't apply to belts. SI No 21/2008 "“semi-automatic firearms” means firearms that reload automatically from a magazine or cylinder each time a round is discharged but can fire not more than one round with a single pull on the trigger". So technically belt fed semi autos aren't semi automatic firearms. I don't know what you'd call them, maybe just take a leaf out of the EU's book and make up a term:D:D:D. I'd say that this was just to class o/u shotguns as not being semi auto, but that's just speculation. At least we have an avenue to get semi auto firearms if the government try ban them.

    Certainly,as originally the standard factory issue for these was 20 rounds from the get-go,and its only because of Californian 1980s "feel good " legislation that this 10 round nonsense stated.

    They should have just made it 30 rounds or something similar to pistols. It's not like 32 round mags are standard for pistols, whereas 30 rounds is standard for rifles. Again, it would be much better if the EU couldn't legislate anything but that's too late.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45



    I had a read through the legislation again, and I think that you would be in trouble even if you didn't have an AR. To paraphrase it says that you can't have any mags capable of being used in a SA CF rifle.

    In most of Europe, you can collect mags aplenty!
    They are not considered dangerous or pressure bearing parts, and it's easier to own and collect than the guns that go with them, irrespective of capacity. So long as you don't have the gun to go with them you are fine.So you could collect HK mags,AK mags,FAL mags by the crate load and own a AR style rifle ,and a SIG rifle platform.So long as you don't have any high cap mags over 10 shots for your AR or SIG, or anything adapted to a particular platform in your possesion you are golden.:eek:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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