Dragons - The Dinosaur Link?

JupiterKid

I was reading a book on the folklore of dragons, so prevalent in both Western and Chinese folklore. The mythical, fire breathing, reptilian monsters which usually represent a threat to the well being of humankind.

Many Western myths feature saints fighting and slaying the evil dragon, like St. George of England.

But has anyone else apart from me noticed the likenesses between dragons and certain types of dinosaurs? However, dinosaur fossils and bones have really only been identified and recognised by scientists since the mid 19th Century.

So how did the people of yore dream up the features of the dragon, given that they supposedly did not know of dinosaurs?

touts

JupiterKid wrote: »

I was reading a book on the folklore of dragons, so prevalent in both Western and Chinese folklore. The mythical, fire breathing, reptilian monsters which usually represent a threat to the well being of humankind.

Many Western myths feature saints fighting and slaying the evil dragon, like St. George of England.

But has anyone else apart from me noticed the likenesses between dragons and certain types of dinosaurs? However, dinosaur fossils and bones have really only been identified and recognised by scientists since the mid 19th Century.

So how did the people of yore dream up the features of the dragon, given that they supposedly did not know of dinosaurs?

Just because dinosaur fossils have only been recognized as dinosaurs for the last couple of hundred years doesn't mean the odd skull etc wasn't dug up in the past and get called a dragon.

Dtp1979

Dragons ain’t real kid, let it go

REPTILEDAN88

Dragons were mentioned close to 5000bc they likely come from large lizards species like Monitor lizards and Hydrosaurus species with their big Sails, hence their common name Sailfin Dragons. Heres a Sailfin now and yeah its very possibly some were dug up while they built palaces etc. The Reptile Zoo in Kilkenny actually just one of these in his names Genoa. Theres alot of other very prehistoric looking ones too like the smaller Harpesaurus beccarii and then you have other lizards like Chameleons and Iguana species different cultures would probably consider dragons too.

Duckworth_Luas

When large fossilized dinosaur bones were discovered in the past the were assumed to have been the bones of a race of giants.

St George was not of England, he was a Palestinian Greek.

In medieval manuscripts knights were often shown fighting snails rather than dragons.

TheValeyard

Film Reign of Fire wasnt bad.

whisky_galore

JupiterKid wrote: »

The mythical, fire breathing, reptilian monsters which usually represent a threat to the well being of humankind.

Not in Eastern folklore, they're symbols of good luck, harmony, prosperity etc.

JupiterKid

Thanks for all the musings on the origins of the dragon myth in human folklore.

@Reptiledan88 - I think your theory of those lizards being a possible origin of the dragon in the human imagination seems a rather plausible one. Interesting...

ClosedAccountFuzzy

One theory on fire breathing dragons that I encountered is that they may be associated with coal or other fossil fuel deposits.

Long before coal was regularly used as a fuel source, it was abundant in easily accessible caves. These may have been lit and smouldered.

It’s something we wouldn’t have seen for a very long time as all easily accessible sources of coal were mined/collected and used.

Coal use wasn’t widespread in Britain until the 1200s and was generally considered a very dirty fuel, incompatible with cooking and household living.

It became more desirable than wood, as it required less tending than a wood fire, and found its way into domestic heating and then from there to industry. It caused the redesign of houses as the old concept of having wood fires in the middle of a domestic building, with little or no flue was impossible with coal. So fireplaces emerged at the gable ends of building and you start to see chimneys etc.

They think, for example, the Welsh association with fire breathing dragon symbols may originate from this and association with caves where fire breathing dragons lived may have simply been very rich coal deposits that were easily accessible and probably occasionally burned.

RulesOfNature

JupiterKid wrote: »

I was reading a book on the folklore of dragons, so prevalent in both Western and Chinese folklore. The mythical, fire breathing, reptilian monsters which usually represent a threat to the well being of humankind.

Many Western myths feature saints fighting and slaying the evil dragon, like St. George of England.

But has anyone else apart from me noticed the likenesses between dragons and certain types of dinosaurs? However, dinosaur fossils and bones have really only been identified and recognised by scientists since the mid 19th Century.

So how did the people of yore dream up the features of the dragon, given that they supposedly did not know of dinosaurs?

Western myths specifically Anglo Saxon/Celtic literary tradition uses dragons are metaphors for Kings. Bad kings hoard wealth. Bad kings take livestock. Bad kings are slain by the Righteous kings like Beowulf, who defeats the dragon with his successor Wiglaf. And of course the famous Welsh Red Dragon who is associated with the famous King Arthur the righteous leader of the Britons and the Red Dragon kills the White Dragon which represents the Anglo saxon invaders.

More often than not Dragons are a not-so-subtle way of criticizing a monarch, skirting the execution block for treason.

In the east dragons are a metaphor for ancestry, tradition, good luck, mostly in positive connotations, unlike the western one. They also look very different, sometimes theyre more snake-like, wings, no wings, beards, etc etc.

In India there is ONE dragon who is like a giant serpent that apparently imprisoned all the water which explains droughts or something like that. The point is it has almost nothing to do with how you picture a dragon, and its just a primordial force to explain away natural events.

Really the concept of 'dragon' only seems prevalent in human culture because we've decided that the western dragon (wyverns?) are connected to the eastern concept of dragons because they're massive creatures with fangs, but the more you look into it, the more you'll realize that each culture's concept of a dragon is more different than they are similar, so its kinda stupid that we call them all dragons and think theyre all the same.

Its more accurate to say that every culture thinks snakes and lizards are scary and awe-inspiring. But 'Dragon' as a concept, is a thin idea.

suicide_circus

The coal thing makes sense

Capt'n Midnight

The wonderful lizard of OZ

Was still around when humans arrived. As were land crocs. Salties are still there.

Five meters long, makes Komodo dragons look like tiddlers.

https://australian.museum/learn/australia-over-time/extinct-animals/megalania-prisca/

RulesOfNature

Dragons from all cultures are more different than they are similar. That's like if I described a Tiger to someone from the future (big teeth, claws, predator, eats meat, furry) and they extrapolate that to mean that Bears, Hyenas, Lions, Wolves, Hyenas are Tigers.

The idea that all cultures have their 'Dragons' is a modern construct. They have big, sometimes serpentine, sometimes lizardlike creatures in myths because they took what they saw from nature.

Timberrrrrrrr

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Dragons ain’t real kid, let it go

This guy disagrees with you

Mutha

I`ve a Jack Russell who identifies as a dragon.

Hamsterchops

Just like the bumble bee, a dragons bodyweight would be too heavy to be supported in flight by flapping wings, hence it's very unlikely that a dragon could just takeoff from ground level, unless they glided off cliffs or hill tops like giant hangliders?

Bumble bees of course are not aware that their body mass prevents them from flying, so they fly anyway ignorant of the laws of physics, this was possibly the same with dragons who had no concept of flight dynamics, so they glided anyway.

The breathing fire is difficult to explain, but I guess just like today's circus fire eaters they (the dragons) must have consumed a flammable liquid before igniting it by striking a flint against a rock, or something like that?

It's a mystery untill they dig up an actual dragon fossil with wings and all attached.

Capt'n Midnight

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Just like the bumble bee, a dragons bodyweight would be too heavy to be supported in flight by flapping wings, hence it's very unlikely that a dragon could just takeoff from ground level, unless they glided off cliffs or hill tops like giant hangliders?

Bumble bees of course are not aware that their body mass prevents them from flying, so they fly anyway ignorant of the laws of physics, this was possibly the same with dragons who had no concept of flight dynamics, so they glided anyway.

The breathing fire is difficult to explain, but I guess just like today's circus fire eaters they (the dragons) must have consumed a flammable liquid before igniting it by striking a flint against a rock, or something like that?

It's a mystery untill they dig up an actual dragon fossil with wings and all attached.

One model predicted that bumblebees couldn't fly. Other models using vortex lift agree that they can fly.







https://dinopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus


Bombardier beetles don't have actual fire but do have steam and chemicals.

Maybe fire refers to pain felt from the venom of the animal. Even Komodo dragons are venomous.

odyssey06

I also read a theory (from the book Exodus to Arthur) linking ideas of dragons in mythology with fireballs from the sky e.g. comets, meteors.

Also worth mentioning that in some mythologies (e.g. Greek) it doesn't appear that dragons have wings and fly, more often found as serpents lurking in water (so more like crododiles).

razorblunt

JupiterKid wrote: »

I was reading a book on the folklore of dragons, so prevalent in both Western and Chinese folklore. The mythical, fire breathing, reptilian monsters which usually represent a threat to the well being of humankind.

Many Western myths feature saints fighting and slaying the evil dragon, like St. George of England.

But has anyone else apart from me noticed the likenesses between dragons and certain types of dinosaurs? However, dinosaur fossils and bones have really only been identified and recognised by scientists since the mid 19th Century.

So how did the people of yore dream up the features of the dragon, given that they supposedly did not know of dinosaurs?

They think the Greeks may have discovered some too basic on drawing on clay pots.

souter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin#Possible_influence_by_dinosaurs

Fossils were encountered long before any concept of dinosaurs or deep geological time e.g. amonites etc https://withernsea1.co.uk/FossilFolklore.html

It's not unreasonable to postulate that China, being very ancient and covering a large land area including many famed mega-fauna dinosaur sites e.g. Gobi desert would include dragons in their mythology.