Breathing

Feisar

Another dopey question!...

So I’ve been doing a lot of dry firing over lockdown, was at the range last week and happy with my progress. Dry firing seems to have instilled that familiarity of driving a car in my shooting. (I’m a citóg and have found a nice way of manipulating the bolt that doesn’t break my position).

Anyway, last week I caught myself holding my breath to much, it’s something I’ve always done but now with the other stuff more working of muscle memory it’s standing out more.

I can’t focus my scope in the house, am going to try get one of those things for the scope that lets it focus at short range so I can practice breaking the shot while actually aiming at the bottom of the breathing cycle.
But does anyone have any techniques they use to train breathing?

GolfVI

Feisar wrote: »

Another dopey question!...

So I’ve been doing a lot of dry firing over lockdown, was at the range last week and happy with my progress. Dry firing seems to have instilled that familiarity of driving a car in my shooting. (I’m a citóg and have found a nice way of manipulating the bolt that doesn’t break my position).

Anyway, last week I caught myself holding my breath to much, it’s something I’ve always done but now with the other stuff more working of muscle memory it’s standing out more.

I can’t focus my scope in the house, am going to try get one of those things for the scope that lets it focus at short range so I can practice breaking the shot while actually aiming at the bottom of the breathing cycle.
But does anyone have any techniques they use to train breathing?

For breathing I never hold my breath. I breathe normal and squeeze the trigger at the end of the exhale, before taking a new breath
I find this is when my body movements are at the minimum and I’m most relaxed.

I always found holding my breath results in me gasping heavy especially when you need to wait longer than expected to shoot.

Feisar

GolfVI wrote: »

For breathing I never hold my breath. I breathe normal and squeeze the trigger at the end of the exhale, before taking a new breath
I find this is when my body movements are at the minimum and I’m most relaxed.

I always found holding my breath results in me gasping heavy especially when you need to wait longer than expected to shoot.

See I’m the same on game/vermin but when it comes to targets quarter MOA notions kick in and I start to over think things. Looking for ideas to train my mind out of it.

Wadi14

In the natural breathing cycle we breath in , we breath out , we pause slightly and we breath in again, there is a natural pause in the breathing unless we suffer from some breathing illness lung disease etc.

As your starting to aim and take up trigger pressure you should take a couple of deep breaths to oxygenate the body, when your ready to fire the shot breath out and elongate the natural pause in your breathing, you should fire off the shot within this pause. In and around 6 seconds max of a pause, any longer and the body starts to cry out for oxygen.

If you cant fire off the shot within that time span, start the process of aiming and trigger pressure all over again, after you have oxygenated the body again.

The best tip I can give you is, learn how to lower the rifle from your shoulder, you don't have to take every shot just because you have the butt in your shoulder pocket. If anything is not right start over again.

Feisar

Thanks, I really appreciate when lads take the time to reply to my questions.

clivej

It's all in the head.
Exhale, finger on trigger, but your off aim.
You say to yourself don't take the shot, but you forget to tell your trigger finger, and you take the shot anyway. The bullet flies into exactly where you were aiming, just off the Bullseye.

Feisar

clivej wrote: »

It's all in the head.
Exhale, finger on trigger, but your off aim.
You say to yourself don't take the shot, but you for get to tell your trigger ginger, and you take the shot anyway. The bullet flies into exactly where you were aiming, just off the Bullseye.

Wadi alluded to one of the biggest fundamentals no one talks about, patience.

I was out again there on Sunday and my desire to shoot crept in. NPA was not good and I wasn't "happy" in my setup, can't put my finger on it. A personal issue was flitting through my mind as well and all this showed in my results.
Having said that when I focused on fragments of clays on the bank behind I could dust them with seeming ease. But that's not a repeatable measurable thing so I focused on paper so I can track my (hopefully) progress.
I do find myself focusing well though when trying to hit a bit of a clay as opposed to firing a group.
I really need to change my mindset from firing five shots to firing one shot five times.

Again, mental.

Wadi14

Feisar wrote: »

I really need to change my mindset from firing five shots to firing one shot five times.

Again, mental.

Your shooting will improve I have no doubt in that because your seeing thing to improve your shooting.

you are correct your firing one shot not five,
so how do you get all those five shots touching. CONSISTENCY.
Consistency in your set up your position and in your equipment (ammo choice if shooting .22lr), in your mental thought process, in your sequence of firing the shot.

Oh just one thing , when you operate the bolt on your rifle do you lift your head off the butt ?

JP22

Wadi14 wrote: »

Your shooting will improve I have no doubt in that because your seeing thing to improve your shooting.

you are correct your firing one shot not five,
so how do you get all those five shots touching. CONSISTENCY.
Consistency in your set up your position and in your equipment (ammo choice if shooting .22lr), in your mental thought process, in your sequence of firing the shot...........

Just my tuppence worth, in adition to above and all other info given, if your serious about improving your shooting be it casual or for comps, get yourself a wind flag, especially for .22RF.

You don't have to buy one, make up your own for the time being. It takes as little as 3 or 4 mph wind to throw a .22 off tgt. My scores improved since using a wing flag and I wouldn't shoot without one.

Practice and more practice is the name of the game BUT practice with consistency.

Like you said, you must do everything perfectly for that one shot into the X/Ten, happy days....:), then you have to repeat it for the next 24 tgts:D.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Attached Pdf is from bits and pieces online. May be of interest to someone.

clivej

JP22 wrote: »

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Attached Pdf is from bits and pieces online. May be of interest to someone.

A good read there.

Feisar

Wadi14 wrote: »

Your shooting will improve I have no doubt in that because your seeing thing to improve your shooting.

you are correct your firing one shot not five,
so how do you get all those five shots touching. CONSISTENCY.
Consistency in your set up your position and in your equipment (ammo choice if shooting .22lr), in your mental thought process, in your sequence of firing the shot.

Oh just one thing , when you operate the bolt on your rifle do you lift your head off the butt ?

I had a reply done up on my phone and the brother-in-law rang, end I took the phone from my ear I was back on the boards home page with no sign of my reply!

Yes I do my best to maintain position, however I'm a citóg shooting right handed rifles.
Sako TRG: it has a slick enough bolt that manipulation with my right hand is easily done.
Remington 700 VSF: Bolt is sticky enough and can take a bit to manipulate. To maintain position I use the pad of my thumb under the bolt and the pads of my fingers on the stock just outside the action port, up with the thumb, levering down with the fingers pops the bolt up and keeps the rifle relatively still, then a more traditional manipulation is used.
I've a Bergara B14R on the way so I can increase trigger time.

Feisar

JP22 wrote: »

Just my tuppence worth, in adition to above and all other info given, if your serious about improving your shooting be it casual or for comps, get yourself a wind flag, especially for .22RF.

You don't have to buy one, make up your own for the time being. It takes as little as 3 or 4 mph wind to throw a .22 off tgt. My scores improved since using a wing flag and I wouldn't shoot without one.

Practice and more practice is the name of the game BUT practice with consistency.

Like you said, you must do everything perfectly for that one shot into the X/Ten, happy days....:), then you have to repeat it for the next 24 tgts:D.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Attached Pdf is from bits and pieces online. May be of interest to someone.

I find that when shooting at the 300 meter line, I find out about a change in the wind on the paper.

JP22

Feisar wrote: »

I find that when shooting at the 300 meter line, I find out about a change in the wind on the paper.

Only shoot in HH myself so dont know other range setups, I thought most ranges had red warnings flags flying on either side of the back berms.

Wadi14

Feisar wrote: »

I find that when shooting at the 300 meter line, I find out about a change in the wind on the paper.

Do you keep DOPE on your centerfire shooting, and I don't mean on a fancy fone or app.
Written DOPE that includes the conditions your shooting in, and the results on target for those conditions. It will def help as you will have to read the wind to compile your DOPE, at the firing point and down range.

The .22 will help if you shoot out to the longer distances, 5mph wind at 200m you will be holding in around 1.3 mils.

Feisar

Wadi14 wrote: »

Do you keep DOPE on your centerfire shooting, and I don't mean on a fancy fone or app.
Written DOPE that includes the conditions your shooting in, and the results on target for those conditions. It will def help as you will have to read the wind to compile your DOPE, at the firing point and down range.

The .22 will help if you shoot out to the longer distances, 5mph wind at 200m you will be holding in around 1.3 mils.

I have started to, I did mention the weather in it but will include a weather section and it's effects on my results.

Wadi14

Its just something that doesn't get mentioned too much, most of us concentrate on the factors within the firers control, when firing a shot, concentrating on The marksmanship Principles.

You have to then look at causes of a bad shot outside the firers control. such as wind, gravity, light( bright or dull ) , rain fog snow etc., and distance to your target.

Feisar

Gents,

All comments graciously accepted/taken on board.

If anyone sees a lad with two mickies on Saturday morning with a shiny new Bergara 22LR say hello!

clivej

Feisar wrote: »

Gents,

All comments graciously accepted/taken on board.

If anyone sees a lad with two mickies on Saturday morning with a shiny new Bergara 22LR say hello!

Is that 'cos you got the corona vaccine?

Feisar

clivej wrote: »

Is that 'cos you got the corona vaccine?

That might be it, got my first jab the other day.

JP22

Feisar wrote: »

That might be it, got my first jab the other day.

Got my first one two weeks ago Feisar, had the shakes that night and mad dreams/sweats the night after, other than joint aches and pains, ok so far, TBTG.

Last time I looked I didn't have two mickies, :eek::D

Best of luck with the new Bergara, may she wear well and shoot better.

jb88

Get a bsquare level which you mount on your rail or your scope 15 -30 euro then.
Make sure your scope is not canted in the mounts.
Make sure the scope is tightly secured and level to the rail and mounts on the rifle.

Then pick a point and practice dry firing over and over again, at least 20 to 30 times before taking a shot, that way you will begin to see when you pull the trigger dryfiring what you are actually doing, ive a terrible flinch I had to counteract and that was the best way, have a good cheak weld.

Learn to shoot with both hands and eithier shoulder is my advice then regardless if your a leftie or not it wont make any difference. Ive seen lads shoot a comp with their off hand a few times and did it myself just to get better.

Id have trouble with clays but any other type of shooting I can do with eithier hand, you just need to practice
BRASS
Breathe
Relax
Aim
Squeeze
and it should be a suprise.

Be careful of bipods they can cause issues if not the right type or put on the wrong platform, ie a concrete bench.
The recoil however small will throw off the shot ever so slightly and it may start to annoy.##

You should break the shot in your natural respiratory pause.
Take two good deep breaths and when you exhale the air from your lungs hold the trigger for a couple of seconds then break the shot.
x marks the spot every time

JP22

jb88 wrote: »

..............
BRASS
Breathe
Relax
Aim
Squeeze
and it should be a suprise........

True, this is what lots of shooters don’t understand. When everything is setup properly the actual shot just happens; in reality you should not know when it happens.

Setup up correctly, breath naturally, apply trigger pressure, shoot during the natural breath pause (1 – 1.5 secs), with practice your mind and muscles take over and the shot is naturally released at the correct time during the pause period.

If you’re actually waiting for or anticipating the shot/trigger break you’re overthinking it and not completely focusing on the task in hand and the tgt.

jb88 wrote: »

..............Take two good deep breaths.....

I would suggest you breath normally, thats what I was taught and what I taught students to do, everything should be done normally, naturally and stress free.

Any type of stress (external & internal) put on the body will be transferred to the rifle. This is what MUST be avoided at all costs.

Wadi14

I believe in taking a couple of deep breaths, for 2 reasons
1. to oxygenate the body.
2. deep breathing helps you relax

JP22

Wadi14 wrote: »

I believe in taking a couple of deep breaths, for 2 reasons
1. to oxygenate the body.
2. deep breathing helps you relax

Yes and No.

I agree and disagree, I have seen people overdo it, they breathe like crazy thinking it will calm them but it does the opposite. They get excited, nervous and twitchy which you certainly don’t want when target shooting.

Proper deep controlled breathing technique has to be learnt and practised. For most people starting out, just breathe calmly and naturally when shooting, when you can do this consistently, you then move on to learning proper deep breathing techniques.

Works for me, just my tuppence worth.

Wadi14

true but the biggest problem new shooters have is not the breathing but staying too long in the aim and not releasing the shot when they should and the body reacting to the lack of oxygen.

Their buddy tells them to hold your breath and shoot, so like them its a big gulp of air and aim and the body is screaming ahhh he has stopped breathing he has stopped breathing lol.

jb88

JP22 wrote: »

True, this is what lots of shooters don’t understand. When everything is setup properly the actual shot just happens; in reality you should not know when it happens.

Setup up correctly, breath naturally, apply trigger pressure, shoot during the natural breath pause (1 – 1.5 secs), with practice your mind and muscles take over and the shot is naturally released at the correct time during the pause period.

If you’re actually waiting for or anticipating the shot/trigger break you’re overthinking it and not completely focusing on the task in hand and the tgt.



I would suggest you breath normally, thats what I was taught and what I taught students to do, everything should be done normally, naturally and stress free.

Any type of stress (external & internal) put on the body will be transferred to the rifle. This is what MUST be avoided at all costs.

The two deep breath s are to get as much oxygen into your body and your blood to relax your whole body, before you start, it slows down the heart rate and helps with the concentration

Feisar

Wadi14 wrote: »

true but the biggest problem new shooters have is not the breathing but staying too long in the aim and not releasing the shot when they should and the body reacting to the lack of oxygen.

Their buddy tells them to hold your breath and shoot, so like them its a big gulp of air and aim and the body is screaming ahhh he has stopped breathing he has stopped breathing lol.

Reminds me of when I was learning to swim and was crap at taking my breaths, one big gulp of air, swim like feck and some sort of lunge out of the water for another lungful of air. I'm catching myself at that craic now, holding my breath and forcing the shot. At that point though I start thinking about everything and end up all over the place.

Wadi14

A lot of shooters have picked the breathing thing up wrong, they hear the words hold your breath and shoot, but maybe have misunderstood that its pause your breathing not hold it.

Holding your breath is just going to mess your body and brain up, there is tension in your diaphragm muscles and your head and the longer you hold it the body starts screaming for oxygen, and the shakes start and the mind is telling you to breath. So when you cant take any more of it you say ahhh feck shoot lol and there it goes way out to the 6 ring lol.

BSA International

2 x deep breaths, take 3rd deep breath, release half, get sight picture, squeeze trigger, follow through, release remaining breath, repeat as necessary. Most important ..... don't dilly dally on taking shot and maintain sight picture.

Wadi14

Yes it works for some people there are a couple of world class pistol shooters that use this method,
the thing is is it repeatable ?
can we empty our lungs to half full ?
can we empty them to half full every time we want to fire a shot?
How do we know when there are half full?

In the body's natural breathing cycle we don't stop half way out when breathing out, why do it when shooting , its not natural. It's a holding your breath method as you shoot.

I am not knocking your system but would like to know how you achieve consistency in this method. I couldn't make it work I think.

BSA International

Wadi14 wrote: »

how you achieve consistency in this method.

I don't over think the whole thing.