Disciplinary procedure

lulublue22

Hi All

Can an outside person attend a disciplinary hearing - employee can have a union rep or a colleague present. However there is no union and colleagues would be late teens to early twenties outside of management.


tks

Dublin Lad2021

lulublue22 wrote: »

Hi All

Can an outside person attend a disciplinary hearing - employee can have a union rep or a colleague present. However there is no union and colleagues would be late teens to early twenties outside of management.


tks

I believe it needs to be approved by HR, I believe it can't be a lawyer though.
The person with you is only really supposed to be a witness on your behalf so a colleague who has gone through it might be helpful even if they are teens/early 20s
Best of luck with it OP

Dublin Lad2021

lulublue22 wrote: »

Not me but an 18 year old 1st job ( minimum wage , part time ) who doesn’t know what it’s about. Letter sounds serious enough but no details as to what exactly the issue is and his colleagues are similar age who I don’t think would with the best will in the world be bothered. I just don’t want him railroaded.

Hi OP,
Hold onto that letter, the fact he is being summoned to disciplinary hearing and has no idea what it's about and the letter doesn't state what it's about is a HUGE red flag.
He should have been summoned to an investigation interview before any disciplinary hearing was coordinated. Sounds like he's already getting railroaded

It’s unlikely he is being called for a disciplinary meeting without some indication of wrongdoing, is it that he doesn’t understand the letter, or he doesn’t understand why he is being disciplined, or both? He is entitled to know the allegation being made in order to be able to defend it.

Edit, I see you provided a little more detail, so the letter does outline what the meeting is about. If he did no wrong, he has the opportunity to put his side to the person conducting the disciplinary.

mrslancaster

Some info here OP: https://www.workplacerelations.ie

The Code of Practice on grievance & disciplinary procedures; there should be progressive steps.

Dublin Lad2021

lulublue22 wrote: »

No interview before this. It’s a grey area re letter - the letter states alleged .... and gives the date of the incident but it is not explicit and he does not know what they are referring to. So he effectively won’t be able to prepare for the meeting. We are not happy with what the alleged implies but he is genuinely clueless. I have asked him to seek further clarification from his manager who is not dealing with the situation but I would feel better if he had someone with him.

Hi OP,

Does the letter specifically say it's a disciplinary hearing? It's possible they are using this as the interview process before deciding about disciplinary hearing
Does the letter say anything to the effect of action taken from the meeting can be up to and including dismissal?
I would advise the 18 year old to contact HR ask for you to be in attendance due to not being in a trade union and not believing anyone in the company would be appropriate and to ask for clarification of what he is being accused of as he has no idea and is perfectly entitled to any evidence the company has, any company policies he has violated and full details of exactly what he is being accused of i.e. Theft, Fraud etc.

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

Tks for that - it is definitely a disciplinary hearing - the letter clearly states so and they included a separate generic information pack as to what that means ie verbal warning right up to dismissal.

And your friend has no idea what incident the allegation relates to? Surely he should ask HR/employer for details about this prior to the meeting.

lulublue22

Dav010 wrote: »

And your friend has no idea what incident the allegation relates to? Surely he should ask HR/employer for details about this prior to the meeting.

He has contacted his manager and is awaiting a reply.

lulublue22

mrslancaster wrote: »

Some info here OP: https://www.workplacerelations.ie

The Code of Practice on grievance & disciplinary procedures; there should be progressive steps.

Perfect tks for that.

Mrs OBumble

lulublue22 wrote: »

Perfect tks for that.

Be aware that it's only a Code of Practise. That means it's someone's idea of how things should be. Companies can have their own documented disciplinary procedures which don't conform to the COP. Tthe only legal requirement is that they follow their own procedure.

Also, remember that 18 year olds can sometimes be economical with the truth, and naïve about behavioural standards.

Strumms

It’s funny how they’d allow an outside union rep, but not an outside legal representative....

Bicyclette

Does the person have a copy of the employee handbook? Or were they given it?
http://www.employmentrightsadvice.ie/employer/working/employment-contract-employer/the-employee-handbook

Before anything happens, I'd be going through the employee handbook with a fine toothcomb and also documenting all meetings or possible disciplinary events.

But if the person is working in the organisation less than 12 months, then they have limited access to unfair dismissal legislation.

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

Yes they can - but they can also be diligent and hard working and genuinely not understand why they are facing a disciplinary hearing particularly since no one mentioned anything to them on the day of the alleged incident nor on any of the subsequent days they were in work prior to receiving a summons in the post during their weeks holiday informing them they were to attend a disciplinary hearing during their holidays. I suppose we need to remember that not all employers follow policy or procedure as they should.

Might help if we knew what the allegation is.

Dublin Lad2021

lulublue22 wrote: »

Yes they can - but they can also be diligent and hard working and genuinely not understand why they are facing a disciplinary hearing particularly since no one mentioned anything to them on the day of the alleged incident nor on any of the subsequent days they were in work prior to receiving a summons in the post during their weeks holiday informing them they were to attend a disciplinary hearing during their holidays. I suppose we need to remember that not all employers follow policy or procedure as they should.

Hi OP,

I'd imagine that's exactly what's going on, I would imagine the employer is taking liberties knowing they're dealing with an 18yo who doesn't know employment law and about things such as natural justice and fair procedure, doesn't know about their rights in regards to being brought to a disciplinary hearing etc. Considering the accused is 18 and most of the colleagues are in the same age region it's probably common of them to behave like that.
If I were the 18 year old, I'd contact whoever issued the invitation to disciplinary and ask for a copy of the company policy that covers disciplinaries, there might also be something in his contract regarding the disciplinary procedures. I'd ask for the detail of what he's accused of including any evidence, witness statements etc. Then I'd ask for confirmation if you are able to attend.

brightspark

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Be aware that it's only a Code of Practise. That means it's someone's idea of how things should be. Companies can have their own documented disciplinary procedures which don't conform to the COP. Tthe only legal requirement is that they follow their own procedure.

While it's true that a company doesn't need to conform with a COP, they would need to be able to state why their procedures are better/more appropriate than the COP.

Annasopra

lulublue22 wrote: »

Tks for that - it is definitely a disciplinary hearing - the letter clearly states so and they included a separate generic information pack as to what that means ie verbal warning right up to dismissal.

Is it not an investigation into what happened first?

Annasopra

So does he now understand what he is being disciplined for?

Why did noone in management say anything before sending a letter?

messrs

From previous experience there would always have to have been a chat first with the Manager or HR letting the employee know what the issue was then a letter inviting the employee to a disciplinary meeting allowing the employee to bring someone with them. I know in a previous company I worked for you were allowed to bring someone external if you wished.

I see you have said in another post now that it may not necessarily be a fully disciplinary but more so a few of them getting in trouble for not following correct procedures. Either way they should be fully informed prior to the meeting what exactly it is going to be about.

Best of luck to them though, I hope it goes okay

messrs

lulublue22 wrote: »

There wasn’t which I have an issue with. All paperwork indicates a disciplinary hearing verbal feedback from a manager not involved in the process indicates a bollicking and a verbal warning warning. Given that the outcome is predetermined it can hardly be an interview to ascertain what happened.

Does he know which procedures he allegedly wasnt following? Was he even made aware of these procedures in the first place? Its very hard going into a meeting like this without the full information and not having a chance to prepare for it. I really hope its not a case as someone mentioned above that they are not following correct procedures because they are all only 18 so they think they might get away with it.

messrs

Sounds like then maybe someone else got in trouble previously for this same thing so now they have to be seen to be following the same steps for him so as not to be seen as favoritism so if anything ever comes back from the last person they have it documented that he was spoken to about it and all steps were followed

mrslancaster

messrs wrote: »

Sounds like then maybe someone else got in trouble previously for this same thing so now they have to be seen to be following the same steps for him so as not to be seen as favoritism so if anything ever comes back from the last person they have it documented that he was spoken to about it and all steps were followed

If all the required steps were followed he would know exactly what the issue is & should have had previous verbal warnings. For a written letter about a disciplinary to come out of the blue is not on, to give that to someone with little workplace experience is bad form.

Maybe it's a small company, maybe they've no written policies, maybe they don't know what's required for disciplinary/grievance procedure, maybe they're chancing their arm :eek:. no excuse IMO, there's basic requirements that every company should comply with.