Domestic adoption

barry1708

Hello everyone,

I hope you’ll all have a great Sunday first.

So I wanted to write this message to I guess seek information.

My partner and I (gay couple, French, the both of us), have been trying to grow our family of 4 (us and two doggies), we went through a bit of everything and being a gay couple adds its own level of difficulty (surrogacy abroad is unfortunately too expensive, surrogacy in Ireland too risky in term of the legal frame, intercountry adoption seems extremely complicated for us, it seems that only the USA are the option, we went to an adoption meeting here in Cork with an American agency and ended up knowing that the “fees” that surround the adoption itself are around 80K, so again not an option.
We thought about foster care, however contacting agencies here in Ireland, we were told that one of us have to give up on his job so he can be 100.100 with the child/children we will be taking care of. So again not an option. I honestly felt for so long that all the doors we were trying to open will automatically shut down in front of us.
We have a meeting with Tusla by the end of the month for a domestic adoption process but not being an Irish citizen + having a look online and seeing the numbers of children being adopted by a couple not being like family members, relatives etc … seem extremely low. It’s honestly our last hope. I came here I guess to get feedbacks/experiences on people trying domestic adoption and not being part of the child family.
Did it work? How long did it take you from start to finish etc etc.

Thanks again for reading and have a great Sunday.

Gael23

This might get better answers in the LGBT Forum

barry1708

Gael23 wrote: »

This might get better answers in the LGBT Forum

Hi, and thanks for your reply.

I’ll repost it there then.

thanks

Stihl waters

Gael23 wrote: »

This might get better answers in the LGBT Forum

How did you come to that conclusion

antix80

My advice for a French couple wanting to grow their family of 4 would be to get another dog.

fits

I don’t know much of anything about adoption but just wanted to wish you well. I suspect foreign surrogate might be your best option despite the cost.

shesty

The numbers for domestic adoption are extremely low to be honest.Add in your other circumstances and it might be nearly impossible.I suspect fits is right.You are certainly going the right way about it and I think you should meet Tusla and get the information from them as it will probably let you know best what your options are.I would say prepare any questions you might have first so you come away fully informed.But I feel you will have to look abroad.
I have family adopted from abroad about 20 years ago, and it was a long arduous process, but adopting within Ireland just wasn't really an option at the time as (this sounds awfully cold) there were just no children available, basically.I don't think that has changed too much.

Gael23

Stihl waters wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion

There will be posters there in the same position of trying to start a family

Moonbeam

I am closing this thread while I read the comments.

Moonbeam

antix80 wrote: »

My advice for a French couple wanting to grow their family of 4 would be to get another dog.

Please keep your advice relevant and on topic.

Moonbeam

I have moved this thread to the adoption forum where there is a lot of knowledge in this area.

Stihl waters

Gael23 wrote: »

There will be posters there in the same position of trying to start a family

Are the requirements for adoption different for same sex couples, I wasn't aware of that

Gael23

Stihl waters wrote: »

Are the requirements for adoption different for same sex couples, I wasn't aware of that

No but there are posters in the LGBT forum in the very same position as the OP

Stihl waters

Gael23 wrote: »

No but there are posters in the LGBT forum in the very same position as the OP

You're still not making sense, its an adoption issue, it has nothing to do with the fact they're a same sex couple, that has nothing to do with what the op is asking, its the same rules for all

The_Conductor

Back on topic everyone.

OP- the issue would seem to be to straddle a few different issues.
1. You're non-nationals
2. Neither of you are at home (and regardless of what you might imagine, this is an important factor)
3. Domestic adoption is virtually non-existent in an Irish context
4. A child is not a canine, and regardless of how you view your dogs, it has little to no bearing on how you'd bring up a child.

Its irrelevant that you are a gay couple- its just not a factor- its just that what you're seeking is far beyond where Ireland was 30 odd years ago.
The bigger issue in all of this, from your perspective, is domestic adoption is virtually non-existent in Ireland any longer.
Keeping this in mind- the logical next step would be to familiarise yourself with the Hague Convention, and see how you might be in a position to help elsewhere.

Also- I'm not trying to be mean- but you do seem to have a rather flippant attitude to adoption. Adoption is not about you being in a position to enlarge your family- its about how you might be in a position to help a child, and you should be starting from the viewpoint that whatever you do, has to be in the best interest of the child. It is good that you have looked at fostering- I'd suggest this might give you a different perspective on what you might decide to do.

Given that both you and your partner are French- another issue to look at- is whether or not a child would be entitled to Irish citizenship- or French citizenship (I am not aware of the legal mechanisms in place in France- this is something you'd have to look into yourself).

At the moment there are cases of surrogacy in the media on a regular basis- often featuring countries such as Belarus or Ukraine. Yes, it is expensive- however, whatever way you look at it, bringing up a child is expensive, ridiculously expensive- so perhaps its not a course that you should be ruling out?

Finally- don't equate your two dogs with adding a child to the family- seriously don't- many of us here are adopted and were brought up without any cognisance on the part of our adoptive parents that many adopted people have needs over and above those of regular kids- these needs might be psychological or psychiatric in nature, but they also may be genetic predispositions to any of a long list of possible conditions- and keep in mind,in Ireland, we still do not have access to our own data (regardless of the recent platitudes in the media, it still hasn't happened).

Have a serious think about what you're proposing- and look into the legalities etc- just because you adopt a child in Ireland- unless you are Irish- does not make the child an Irish citizen..........

I seriously think you have further research that you need to do.

shtpEdthePlum

Yeah, and they posted here in order to see if they could get some insight.

While the above advice about the Irish adoption system being very dated is correct by and large, it's completely unfair to assume that the OP hasn't considered the responsibilities involved in having a child and also not really anyone else's place to pass judgement, given the limited information provided. Many Irish people still have the judgemental attitude towards couples expressed in the above post. This is one of the several reasons so many Irish children are brought up in broken homes instead of loving ones who have chosen to adopt children.

Moonbeam

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

This is one of the several reasons so many Irish children are brought up in broken homes instead of loving ones who have chosen to adopt children.

This makes no sense at all. How is it one of the reasons? How does being adopted stop you growing up in a broken home? are you saying people should give up their kids rather than bringing them up as single parents?

The_Conductor

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Yeah, and they posted here in order to see if they could get some insight.

While the above advice about the Irish adoption system being very dated is correct by and large, it's completely unfair to assume that the OP hasn't considered the responsibilities involved in having a child and also not really anyone else's place to pass judgement, given the limited information provided. Many Irish people still have the judgemental attitude towards couples expressed in the above post. This is one of the several reasons so many Irish children are brought up in broken homes instead of loving ones who have chosen to adopt children.

Whatever happens should always be in the best interests of the child- not the best interested of the prospective adoptive parents. This salient point seems to be overlooked, again and again. Children are not fashion accessories- just because it looks nice to have a child, and the more conventional family unit that it might suggest- does not mean that it is fair on either the child or indeed the prospective adoptive parents.

In an Irish context- under the 1954 Act, it is not permissible to place the child (or children) of a married couple for adoption. I think that in a large number of cases- this is incredibly short sighted- and results in misery for both the children and the parents, who may feel they have no other options.

It is not in the interests of a child to attempt to bring them up in a warzone- and many family homes are just this.

Add into the equation the fact that up until 1975 when the social welfare changes were enacted to enable a single mother claim children's benefit for the first time (yup- they were specifically excluded up until the autumn of 1974)- you'll see that there was both a societal and also a bureaucratic push to place children for adoption (and 1974 was the peak year for adoption in Ireland- it rapidly declined thereafter). The manner in which the falls in the number of children being presented for domestic adoption fell off a cliff after mothers were entitled to financial supports- speaks volumes. Of course not all cases fell into this category- but many did.

Domestic adoption, other than intra-family adoptions- are in the low double digits- and occasionally single digits- on an annual basis. In this context- not only is it a beauty parade between prospective adoptive parents- but the odds are stacked against prospective adoptive parents from the get-go.

If the OP were in a position to showcase how he and his partner were capable of offering the best of upbringings to a child- it might enhance their position in the order of merit. The facts the OP has given are scarce- however, he chose to advise that neither of them are at home (which is an unfortunate fact of modern life). Its the position a vast majority of people find themselves in- however, in a highly competitive situation, how does the OP sell themselves as a preferred adoptive parent- over and above any other prospective adoptive parent?

Adoption is not the be-all and the end-all, and my heart is warmed by the OP's statement about how they have explored fostering kids- sometimes foster kids are more needful of the support the OP and his partner may be able to offer- than anything else- however, I don't know the details.

For now- given the non-national status of both the OP and his partner- I genuinely think that the easiest course of action for them is to explore what their options are from the perspective of France. Note- I am not aware of the systems in place there- so I am putting it out there, ignorant of their legislative regime and requirements.

shtpEdthePlum

Moonbeam wrote: »

This makes no sense at all. How is it one of the reasons? How does being adopted stop you growing up in a broken home? are you saying people should give up their kids rather than bringing them up as single parents?

I was referring to children whose parents are often addicts or incapable of looking after them for other reasons, many of whom are currently in the foster system. Obviously in the overwhelming majority of situations, a child is generally better off with their parent or close family member. It's just that this isn't always possible, for a multitude of reasons.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Whatever happens should always be in the best interests of the child- not the best interested of the prospective adoptive parents. This salient point seems to be overlooked, again and again.

I am with you 100% about the first sentence. I just don't see how the child's welfare is even being overlooked here.

Children are not fashion accessories- just because it looks nice to have a child, and the more conventional family unit that it might suggest- does not mean that it is fair on either the child or indeed the prospective adoptive parents.

What on earth made you think that this poster would use the child as a fashion accessory? That's absolutely bizarre. And nice dig there about "looking conventional" - you're starting to show your true feelings about this.

In an Irish context- under the 1954 Act, it is not permissible to place the child (or children) of a married couple for adoption. I think that in a large number of cases- this is incredibly short sighted- and results in misery for both the children and the parents, who may feel they have no other options.

It is not in the interests of a child to attempt to bring them up in a warzone- and many family homes are just this.

Add into the equation the fact that up until 1975 when the social welfare changes were enacted to enable a single mother claim children's benefit for the first time (yup- they were specifically excluded up until the autumn of 1974)- you'll see that there was both a societal and also a bureaucratic push to place children for adoption (and 1974 was the peak year for adoption in Ireland- it rapidly declined thereafter). The manner in which the falls in the number of children being presented for domestic adoption fell off a cliff after mothers were entitled to financial supports- speaks volumes. Of course not all cases fell into this category- but many did.

Domestic adoption, other than intra-family adoptions- are in the low double digits- and occasionally single digits- on an annual basis. In this context- not only is it a beauty parade between prospective adoptive parents- but the odds are stacked against prospective adoptive parents from the get-go.

If the OP were in a position to showcase how he and his partner were capable of offering the best of upbringings to a child- it might enhance their position in the order of merit. The facts the OP has given are scarce- however, he chose to advise that neither of them are at home (which is an unfortunate fact of modern life). Its the position a vast majority of people find themselves in- however, in a highly competitive situation, how does the OP sell themselves as a preferred adoptive parent- over and above any other prospective adoptive parent?

Several people I know foster children work at least part time. There is adoptive leave for parents in a lot of jobs. My work is flexible and will enable me to work from home, so between myself and my partner there will always be somebody there.

barry1708 wrote: »

We thought about foster care, however contacting agencies here in Ireland, we were told that one of us have to give up on his job so he can be 100.100 with the child/children we will be taking care of. So again not an option

OP, it strikes that you didn't mention if you were able to work from home for a time... between this and adoptive leave, as well as other annual leave you could take, you might be able to spend the required time off to ensure the child is able to settle in and feel welcome in your home so you can establish routine and stability. It would likely be worth examining what your abilities are in this respect if you really did want to foster a child.

Adoption is not the be-all and the end-all, and my heart is warmed by the OP's statement about how they have explored fostering kids- sometimes foster kids are more needful of the support the OP and his partner may be able to offer- than anything else- however, I don't know the details.

This is very true, however I don't see in the OP where you're guessing that the poster would be unable to handle the potential mental health issues or other difficulties a foster child may have, as you had said in your first response.

For now- given the non-national status of both the OP and his partner- I genuinely think that the easiest course of action for them is to explore what their options are from the perspective of France. Note- I am not aware of the systems in place there- so I am putting it out there, ignorant of their legislative regime and requirements.

But seeing as they ARE here in Ireland, they are examining their options. Perhaps because of the demographics changing over the course of the last few years, the process for adopting if you're from abroad might be clearer. All they can do is try. I don't think "go back to your own country" is the response they need in this situation.

You don't know what the process is, and neither do I, but maybe someone does and they didn't start the thread to have their parenting abilities or ability to provide a loving household pre-emptively second-guessed. I hope they get less judgemental, unprejudiced advice from someone who has that insight.

[Deleted User]

How did your first meeting with Tusla go, 2 years ago?

You're effective 5 years into your process of asking here on boards about adoption, so I'm a little puzzled why it's taken so long to actually get going, if you're not still just thinking about it while not wanting to commit to the cost of doing so.

I'm not going to wrap this up in cotton wool - what you're thinking and 'planning' possibly involves a child's wellbeing, their future, their happiness, if you're successful in realising your dream of adding a little person to your duo. Your dogs aren't family. They're pets. Different thing entirely, which you should know.

Some things haven't changed, especially the de-facto need for one of you to give up employment to support an adopted child in the process, not to mention the unavoidable expense you'll have to address. These things won't go away and whether one of the other of you contribute to the conception of a child, foster or adopt, you will need to sacrifice some of your earning potential and lifestyle to support a child. But you've known this for years based on the advice already given, so it's reasonable to assume you've put in the easy work, before the hard work commences, right?

In the past 5 years, with 2 of you working, have you set aside a sufficient amount to be able to begin this process in earnest this time? Let's put it this way: If you've both been serious about this, you should have set aside €100 per week x 2 earners, times 52 weeks x 5 years. You should have €52k sitting there now, if you've been committed and even half serious about this all along.

Even if it's only since you got married, that should still leave you with €30k in your war chest, right? So you've enough to consult with a professional to help you get things going formally?

If not, maybe it's time to ask yourself whether or not you're ready to be a parent through any means, let alone through adoption. You may want to be, but if you can't provide for what you KNOW is needed, how can you think you're able to provide for the unexpected that comes with raising children, even just financially?

And if you have the financial means but still think it's more than you want to spend, well, that should also let you know how ready you are to do what you really must if you want to raise a child.