Proposed UK Government Amnesty for Troops & Paramilitaries in NI during Troubles

osarusan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57006280

Reports that the UK government intends to restrict future prosecutions of British soldiers who served in NI during the Troubles have sparked anger.

The Daily Telegraph and The Times reported legislation will be announced in the Queen's Speech on Tuesday.

It has been reported that the move would also apply to former paramilitaries.

The Times article linked to is behind a paywall, but this is visible for free:

British veterans and terrorists will be exempt from prosecution for actions taken during the Troubles as part of plans to draw a line under the past, The Times has learnt.

Ministers intend to bring in a statute of limitations so no one can be charged over incidents up to the 1998 Good Friday agreement except for cases involving war crimes, genocide or torture.

Plans included in the 2014 Stormont House agreement to set up a £150 million unit to investigate all deaths during the Troubles will be scrapped, Whitehall sources confirmed. A Nelson Mandela-style "truth and reconciliation" process will be implemented instead.

Loads of different groups are angry at the idea, for different reasons obviously.

Reading through the article, apart from no mention of the DUP, it seems like every single party is against it, along with Amnesty and the Northern Ireland Veterans' Commissioner, with the Irish govt against 'unilateral' action also.

How wide is the amnesty net being proposed? Does it cover basically everything by everybody on all sides, or is it more selective than that? The Times article would suggest it covers everything?

Fandymo

osarusan wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57006280



The Times article linked to is behind a paywall, but this is visible for free:


Loads of different groups are angry at the idea, for different reasons obviously.

Reading through the article, apart from no mention of the DUP, it seems like every single party is against it, along with Amnesty and the Northern Ireland Veterans' Commissioner, with the Irish govt against 'unilateral' action also.

How wide is the amnesty net being proposed? Does it cover basically everything by everybody on all sides, or is it more selective than that? The Times article would suggest it covers everything?

except for cases involving war crimes, genocide or torture.

suicide_circus

Good for the goose...

Mary Lou, the gift that keeps giving

Sinn Féin President Mary Lou McDonald said the move was an "attack on the rule of law".

She said what the British government is doing "is an attempt to put British soldiers above the law and prevent investigations into murder, torture, shoot to kill and collusion involving British forces in Ireland".

"Let's be clear this is not about dealing with the legacy of our past, this is about continuing the decades long cover-ups and frustrating families in their efforts to get truth and justice."

An Claidheamh

Literally hours after Simon Coventry met NI secretary, British govt announces amnesty for British army child murderers

Coveney never informed at meeting

Michéal Martin clueless about it this afternoon

Almost complete silence from government Twitter accounts (and Amnesty International) about Britain’s unilateral move to protect war criminals


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/any-unilateral-uk-move-on-soldier-amnesty-a-breach-of-trust-taoiseach-says-1.4557043?mode=amp


https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0506/1214048-uk-troubles-prosecutions/


Once again, Irish government looking weak

Will they dare use European Court of Human Rights/ The Hague against them á la 1970s?

Or blame Sinn Féin and wait until it dies down?

deeks

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Literally hours after Simon Coventry met NI secretary, British govt announces amnesty for British army child murderers

Coveney never informed at meeting

Michéal Martin clueless about it this afternoon

Almost complete silence from government Twitter accounts (and Amnesty International) about Britain’s unilateral move to protect war criminals


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/any-unilateral-uk-move-on-soldier-amnesty-a-breach-of-trust-taoiseach-says-1.4557043?mode=amp


https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0506/1214048-uk-troubles-prosecutions/


Once again, Irish government looking weak

Will they dare use European Court of Human Rights/ The Hague against them á la 1970s?

Or blame Sinn Féin and wait until it does down?

When was the announcement made?

An Claidheamh

deeks wrote: »

When was the announcement made?

Today

Smee_Again

Perfidious Albion

MrMusician18

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Today

Hasn't actually been announced. It was leaked to the telegraph as going to be in the Queen's speech next week

Someone has to rip off the sticky plaster at some point.

deeks

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Today

Do you have a link to the announcement?

deeperlearning

Johnson is sabre rattling as there are elections today.

OP is a drama llama.

suicide_circus

Weren't hundreds of terrorists released under the GFA?

Necro

Threads merged

An Claidheamh

deeperlearning wrote: »

Johnson is sabre rattling as there are elections today.

OP is a drama llama.

Leaking to the Daily Telegraph is how the Tories make announcements, the Irish government were clearly not expecting it

How would elections in Scotland and one by-election in England make Johnson announce something affecting the North?

You are naive

An Claidheamh

suicide_circus wrote: »

Weren't hundreds of terrorists released under the GFA?

True, but these terrorists have to be trialled and admit their crimes before they can be released though

An Claidheamh

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Leaking to the Daily Telegraph is how the Tories make announcements, the Irish government were clearly not expecting it

How would elections in Scotland and one by-election in England make Johnson announce something affecting the North?

You are naive

Council elections all over England
London Mayor election and the Welsh parliament election all today...

Calahonda52

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Literally hours after Simon Coventry met NI secretary, British govt announces amnesty for British army child murderers

Coveney never informed at meeting

Michéal Martin clueless about it this afternoon

Almost complete silence from government Twitter accounts (and Amnesty International) about Britain’s unilateral move to protect war criminals


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/any-unilateral-uk-move-on-soldier-amnesty-a-breach-of-trust-taoiseach-says-1.4557043?mode=amp


https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0506/1214048-uk-troubles-prosecutions/


Once again, Irish government looking weak

Will they dare use European Court of Human Rights/ The Hague against them á la 1970s?

Or blame Sinn Féin and wait until it dies down?

Lacks balance and objectivity as contribution

Endaaaagh

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Literally hours after Simon Coventry met NI secretary, British govt announces amnesty for British army child murderers

Coveney never informed at meeting

Michéal Martin clueless about it this afternoon

Almost complete silence from government Twitter accounts (and Amnesty International) about Britain’s unilateral move to protect war criminals


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/any-unilateral-uk-move-on-soldier-amnesty-a-breach-of-trust-taoiseach-says-1.4557043?mode=amp



https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0506/1214048-uk-troubles-prosecutions/


Once again, Irish government looking weak

Will they dare use European Court of Human Rights/ The Hague against them á la 1970s?

Or blame Sinn Féin and wait until it dies down?

In fairness, they also announced amnesty for IRA child murderers. Why single out the british?

ec18

humiliated is way too strong of a word for this

The IRA and terrorism have very little to do with whether a British soldier should shoot British citizens who are marching for civil rights.

Interesting take by the the British.

blanch152

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Leaking to the Daily Telegraph is how the Tories make announcements, the Irish government were clearly not expecting it

How would elections in Scotland and one by-election in England make Johnson announce something affecting the North?

You are naive

So it wasn't announced, despite your earlier claims.

This is the wrong decision. All crimes should be prosecuted.

Tomorrow, we should remember the deaths of Eric and Desmond Guiney, a milkman and his 14-year old son stoned to death by nationalist thugs, just because they were Protestant.

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/may5_hunger_strike_riots_swept_city.php

No cause is worth that sort of behaviour. Those incidents are a stain on this country. The perpetrators of crimes like that should have no escape.

Amirani

Not sure exactly how this humiliates 2 Irish political parties.

Blackjack

Amirani wrote: »

Not sure exactly how this humiliates 2 Irish political parties.

I'm sure the Sinn Fein press office will be along at some point soon enough with the appropriate amount of outrage to convince their followers and fellow travellers that it's some sort of humiliation.

An Claidheamh

Endaaaagh wrote: »

In fairness, they also announced amnesty for IRA child murderers. Why single out the british?

So you're happy with that as long as the Brits get off also

An Claidheamh

Blackjack wrote: »

I'm sure the Sinn Fein press office will be along at some point soon enough with the appropriate amount of outrage to convince their followers and fellow travellers that it's some sort of humiliation.

Strange reaction to foreign scumbags murdering innocent Irish children

An Claidheamh

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Almost complete silence from government Twitter accounts (and Amnesty International) about Britain’s unilateral move to protect war criminals

Doesn't it explicitly exclude war crimes?

Timberrrrrrrr

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Strange reaction to foreign scumbags murdering innocent Irish children

That's no way to talk about the IRA.

blanch152

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Strange reaction to foreign scumbags murdering innocent Irish children

As a stain on this country, it is far worse when we see Irish thugs murdering innocent Irish children, Mullaghmore being one example of that.

HBC08

Clickbait thread title.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Weren't hundreds of terrorists released under the GFA?

Yes. Also. And?

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

As a stain on this country, it is far worse when we see Irish thugs murdering innocent Irish children, Mullaghmore being one example of that.

Is it. Or are there two distinct things here. A supposedly lawful army shooting civilians who were marching peacefully and terrorists.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it. Or are there two distinct things here. A supposedly lawful army shooting civilians who were marching peacefully and terrorists.

But any on here have previously stayed they weren't terrorists.

Endaaaagh

An Claidheamh wrote: »

So you're happy with that as long as the Brits get off also

No, I never said that. I think all parties who committed any type of atrocity should be prosecuted.
I was just wondering why your post was written as only an attack on the British? Why did you fail to mention that the amnesty was for all members of military or paramilitary forces? Why single out the "Brits"?
Do you think that only the British murderers should be prosecuted and any Irish murderers should be allowed to go free?

alchemist33

ec18 wrote: »

humiliated is way too strong of a word for this

Cheap political point-scoring by people who use the term "FFG". Not that I agree with this decision, btw

piplip87

I see a mention of a truth and Reconciliation commission is proposed too.

Sinn Fein are terrified of a Truth and Reconciliation commission now that they are up in the polls. Imagine if all the missing bodies where found, all crimes of the IRA known and the trigger men all uncovered. No doubt it would do then serious damage in the polls. The new young woke lefty brigade would abandon ship fairly sharpish.

I also noticed how SF want IRA men absolved of all crimes but want justice for any Loyalist or British Army murder. The bare faced hypocrisy.

Personally I think those who killed anybody and those who ordered it should face the full rath of the law and spend the rest of their lives in prison.

British Army, IRA, UDA, UVF essentially are the same scumbags in different uniforms

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But any on here have previously stayed they weren't terrorists.

What the what now? This is more deflection. Should British citizens be shot or not while marching for any reason.

Aren’t you an ultra liberal when it comes to pretty much anything else, but when it bites home, an oppressed minority marching for its right to housing or what not, it’s ok to mow them down. Because terrorism.

An Claidheamh

blanch152 wrote: »

As a stain on this country, it is far worse when we see Irish thugs murdering innocent Irish children, Mullaghmore being one example of that.

So you prefer it when it is the Brits murdering Irish children?

And the NI subjects are Irish now?

Maybe their miltary personnel and royalty should not have been using kids as human shields and holidayed in their "British" NI instead considering Ireland dared to be its own country

An Claidheamh

piplip87 wrote: »

I see a mention of a truth and Reconciliation commission is proposed too.

Sinn Fein are terrified of a Truth and Reconciliation commission now that they are up in the polls. Imagine if all the missing bodies where found, all crimes of the IRA known and the trigger men all uncovered. No doubt it would do then serious damage in the polls. The new young woke lefty brigade would abandon ship fairly sharpish.

I also noticed how SF want IRA men absolved of all crimes but want justice for any Loyalist or British Army murder. The bare faced hypocrisy.

Personally I think those who killed anybody and those who ordered it should face the full rath of the law and spend the rest of their lives in prison.

British Army, IRA, UDA, UVF essentially are the same scumbags in different uniforms

With respect a Truth and Reconciliation commission (along South African ways) was and is supported by SF (ANC are their allies)

It is not supported by the unionists and the British

Whether or not all Provos would comply is another story, whether or not the Irish Labour Party and the Official IRA admit their role is a bigger obstacle, whether the British would seriously set up a proper commission and force the Tans to comply is laughable

An Claidheamh

Also fascinating, John Mercer a British politician and professional former squaddie of the Walter Mitty brigade is supporting Amnesty for those who took out his "comrades" and has the full support of unionists - they will never learn

Junkyard Tom

piplip87 wrote: »

Imagine if all the missing bodies where found

How many bodies are missing now? Is it two? And haven't the authorities said they've had full cooperation on recovery efforts?

There are far far more missing bodies in Cork alone from the 'good' IRA in the 1920's. Some were even dug up and moved to prevent them being recovered. Carry on embarrassing yourself if you wish though.

blanch152

An Claidheamh wrote: »

So you prefer it when it is the Brits murdering Irish children?

And the NI subjects are Irish now?

Maybe their miltary personnel and royalty should not have been using kids as human shields and holidayed in their "British" NI instead considering Ireland dared to be its own country

What nonsense is this? Where did I say I preferred any killing.

This thread isn't going the way you hoped, calm down.

I want all unlawful killings prosecuted. Simple as that.

Blackjack

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Strange reaction to foreign scumbags murdering innocent Irish children

I think you have a strange definition of humiliation.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What the what now? This is more deflection. Should British citizens be shot or not while marching for any reason.

No one should be shot just for marching.

Aren’t you an ultra liberal when it comes to pretty much anything else, but when it bites home, an oppressed minority marching for its right to housing or what not, it’s ok to mow them down. Because terrorism.

No I'm really not, that's just a silly label that you have decided to slap on me for whatever reason.

suicide_circus

fvp4 wrote: »

Yes. Also. And?

So we move on from these things. A better tomorrow for the children of today...do ye feel me brother?

Junkyard Tom

suicide_circus wrote: »

So we move on from these things. A better tomorrow for the children of today...do ye feel me brother?

The Ballymurphy families are still trying to have their murdered loved-ones found innocent.

Think that through.

Hamsterchops

suicide_circus wrote: »

Weren't hundreds of terrorists released under the GFA?

Yes, many of whom committed horrific murders.

FrancieBrady

US Senator John Boyle signalling that the same applies to the UK's Trade Deal and future agreements if they once again break an agreement they have signed up to (Stormont House Agreement) as applied if they broke the GFA

Not best pleased with them for trying this one.
More playing to the gallery bluster from Boris I would imagine, he'll pull the horns in when the Yanks tell him to.

PeadarCo

piplip87 wrote: »

I see a mention of a truth and Reconciliation commission is proposed too.

Sinn Fein are terrified of a Truth and Reconciliation commission now that they are up in the polls. Imagine if all the missing bodies where found, all crimes of the IRA known and the trigger men all uncovered. No doubt it would do then serious damage in the polls. The new young woke lefty brigade would abandon ship fairly sharpish.

I also noticed how SF want IRA men absolved of all crimes but want justice for any Loyalist or British Army murder. The bare faced hypocrisy.

Personally I think those who killed anybody and those who ordered it should face the full rath of the law and spend the rest of their lives in prison.

British Army, IRA, UDA, UVF essentially are the same scumbags in different uniforms

But would a proper Truth and reconciliation commission not be the best thing going forward. The sad fact is that at this stage anyone who committed shootings/bombing/kidnapping etc during the Troubles is unlikely to be prosecuted and that's on both sides. If the evidence was really there, people would have faced trial already. You might have a few more troubles related trials but as time passes they are going to just get fewer and fewer.

For the families affected by the killing of their relative at least a properly run Truth and reconciliation commission might give them some sort of closure even if the people who committed those crimes go free. They might better understand why/how people died. The sad fact is the majority of unsolved atrocities at this stage will never face trial because the evidence isn't there to prosecute in a criminal trial.

A well run commission would cause problems for the British army and former paramilitaries on both sides of the divide including politicians. But at least it might better expose how interlinked certain groups were ie IRA and Sinn Fein, the various loyalists paramilitary groups and British security forces, the exact role of certain individuals etc. That's probably the biggest barrier.