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Building up against a neighbours house

  • 04-05-2021 12:21pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    Our street has detached houses (A frame style). The gap between each house is a side entrance. Its approximately 145cm gap. If you want to put up a gate you have to drill into the wall of the house next to you (which all of us have done in the past).

    My question is - I want to cover my side entrance completely. I want to fill it with shelves and some storage. I was thinking I could build a wooden structure up against my neighbours house and use it as a wall that I can put a roof over. I intend to add a door at both ends to make it water tight. I also intent to add a skylight or two. Are there any issues with this? I've seen it done a lot elsewhere but was just wondering for myself.

    example (NOT MY HOUSE):
    nxNsv2n.png


Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That’s building a fire bridge. Bad idea. Some would use stronger terms.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Do you actually own the entire width of the entrance, for starters?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    I do own the entire width AFAIK. Great point JayZeus, I could use a different material to wood.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭ ec18


    does the back garden wall run direct from the back of your neighbours house? ot how is the boundary defined?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    ec18 wrote: »
    does the back garden wall run direct from the back of your neighbours house? ot how is the boundary defined?
    Its flush with the house
    LS72kxd.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭ FishOnABike


    Sniipe wrote: »
    I do own the entire width AFAIK. Great point JayZeus, I could use a different material to wood.

    You might own the gap but you don't own your neighbour's external wall.

    Getting permission to put a gate in the gap is one thing but roofing the gap completely is asking for a whole lot more.

    Major concern would be managing water runoff from the roof, flashing, guttering, downpipes and drains.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭ FishOnABike


    Looking at the picture just posted it would be unusual for eaves to overhang another property or for a downpipe to discharge onto another property.

    I would think property lines should be checked including whether there neighbouring house has any right of access or wayleave for their external wall, eaves, downpipes and drain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    would think property lines should be checked including whether there neighbouring house has any right of access or wayleave for their external wall, eaves, downpipes and drain.
    I was wondering the same myself. I want to do things above board within the legal limits, but its difficult to figure it out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    Major concern would be managing water runoff from the roof, flashing, guttering, downpipes and drains.
    I was thinking of a flat roof that would be a bit below the eaves where water drains away from the buildings. I wouldn't be drilling into their building at all so the water run off was my only concern on that front.
    Looking at the picture just posted it would be unusual for eaves to overhang another property or for a downpipe to discharge onto another property.
    It does seem unusual.

    I would think property lines should be checked including whether there neighbouring house has any right of access or wayleave for their external wall, eaves, downpipes and drain.
    Where would I get the property lines info from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭ PMBC


    Dpending on the length of what you are proposing i.e. front to back, I dont think discharging the roof water will be an issue since there appears to be a rainwater doenpipe at the rear.
    However imho there are a few major issues
    1 Since you want to build off your neighbours external wall you will need to have a very good relationship with him apart from his agreement.

    2. It is vital to get right the connection and flashing of the joint, which might need a cavity tray, between your neighbours wall and the proposed roof.

    3. That is a beautiful front elevation and be careful you dont destroy it and devalue your property and your neighbours.

    4. You may/probably need planning permission and at least should step back the entrance door so that it doesnt have the same impact visually.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,448 ✭✭✭ jetfiremuck


    Is there a management in place? it may be common ground as in you own the house but not the walkways. They may be lax if there are other gates, and the issue of public liability would be a concern .


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭ Wildly Boaring


    PMBC wrote: »

    3. That is a beautiful front elevation and be careful you dont destroy it and devalue your property and your neighbours.

    The elevation is off google surely.
    Those houses are cladded


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    PMBC wrote: »
    1 Since you want to build off your neighbours external wall you will need to have a very good relationship with him apart from his agreement.
    Apologies, the original picture above is not my house, its an example I found online. My residence was built in 1978. My neighbour is a rented accommodation. I rarely see the landlord and his house is not maintained. I feel sorry for the students there.
    PMBC wrote: »
    2. It is vital to get right the connection and flashing of the joint, which might need a cavity tray, between your neighbours wall and the proposed roof.
    I will inquire.
    PMBC wrote: »
    4. You may/probably need planning permission and at least should step back the entrance door so that it doesnt have the same impact visually.
    I plan to step back the side entrance


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    Is there a management in place? it may be common ground as in you own the house but not the walkways. They may be lax if there are other gates, and the issue of public liability would be a concern .
    No. To be honest, I could probably do it without any complaints, but I would prefer to do it all above board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,403 ✭✭✭ FishOnABike


    Any extension to the side is in all probability going to require planning permission.

    A garden shed would probably be far less complicated from a planning, construction and consent of the adjacent property owner perspectives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,919 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    Looking at the picture just posted it would be unusual for eaves to overhang another property or for a downpipe to discharge onto another property.

    I would think property lines should be checked including whether there neighbouring house has any right of access or wayleave for their external wall, eaves, downpipes and drain.

    Not for a 1978 build as he posted later, its not done now


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭ TheBoyConor


    You'd need planning permission for starters. You'd also need to comply with the party wall requirements of the Law Reform Act. And get the consent of your neighbour to do work that will affect their house, the appearance of it, and it's value.

    So, if I were you, I'd get a garden shed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭ POBox19


    Sniipe wrote: »
    Its flush with the house
    LS72kxd.jpg
    That wall is built entirely on your neighbours side in line with their house. It is not a party wall. The walls of the houses are not party walls so you can't attach to the next doors house. The eves overhang the space between the two buildings so you cannot encroach on their space below You are both going to need access every now and then to maintain the walls, gutters and eves.
    You'd need the owners permission before you do anything to his house. You may be allowed a gate hung on your side provided he is allowed access to his property.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭ KevRossi


    Sniipe wrote: »
    Apologies, the original picture above is not my house, its an example I found online. My residence was built in 1978. My neighbour is a rented accommodation. I rarely see the landlord and his house is not maintained. I feel sorry for the students there.

    In my experience these people can be the worst to deal with. They usually want everything for nothing. Can be very belligerent if it goes wrong.

    You'd need any permission in writing and this possibly witnessed. I'd go with a shed, or look into attaching it to your wall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,919 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    POBox19 wrote: »
    That wall is built entirely on your neighbours side in line with their house. It is not a party wall. The walls of the houses are not party walls so you can't attach to the next doors house. The eves overhang the space between the two buildings so you cannot encroach on their space below You are both going to need access every now and then to maintain the walls, gutters and eves.
    You'd need the owners permission before you do anything to his house. You may be allowed a gate hung on your side provided he is allowed access to his property.

    Based on the above, where is the ownership boundary wall and where is the right of access specified?
    I see this differently, based on a few legal spats, but I want to see where you are going to with this line.

    The import of your line is that
    1: the overhang has sterilised the ground under it.
    2: the op cant secure his back garden


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    I've a meeting with an architect next week. I'll discuss more with him. I feel that enclosing my side would be illegal. I'd rather not have the wrath of my next door neighbour. Besides, it has me thinking that his house will become a semi-detached house if I go ahead with this.
    My thoughts were if there was an issue I could also remove the whole structure... but I now don't think this is a wise approach.

    My garden is small. However, I will add a bigger shed and make it into an office.

    I appreciate all the feedback. You are very helpful.

    Working from home has me wanting to work from home into the future and I'm trying to repurpose my wide hall into an office and have people use the side entrance as a main entrance. The main front door would be useable as a front door however I was thinking we would use the side entrance on a more regular basis.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Any extension to the side is in all probability going to require planning permission.

    A garden shed would probably be far less complicated from a planning, construction and consent of the adjacent property owner perspectives.
    You'd need planning permission for starters. You'd also need to comply with the party wall requirements of the Law Reform Act. And get the consent of your neighbour to do work that will affect their house, the appearance of it, and it's value.

    So, if I were you, I'd get a garden shed.

    You don’t need planning permission to build a shed/garage/store to the side of your house. Assuming heights and floor area comply of course.

    OP, this is one of those unusual situations where a picture speaks a thousand words. This all comes down to the lay of the land and actual ownership.

    It would be common enough construction if the original builder had of done it. Think of how the many thousands of properties with sharing garages are constructed.

    Fire regs can be overcome with the correct materials and in all likely hood, the gable wall of the adjoining house will
    Provide the 60m separation, the next thing is to ensure a roof finish that is non combustible so tiles, slate, fibreglass or Similar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭ coolbeans


    Gumbo wrote: »
    You don’t need planning permission to build a shed/garage/store to the side of your house. Assuming heights and floor area comply of course.

    OP, this is one of those unusual situations where a picture speaks a thousand words. This all comes down to the lay of the land and actual ownership.

    It would be common enough construction if the original builder had of done it. Think of how the many thousands of properties with sharing garages are constructed.

    Fire regs can be overcome with the correct materials and in all likely hood, the gable wall of the adjoining house will
    Provide the 60m separation, the next thing is to ensure a roof finish that is non combustible so tiles, slate, fibreglass or Similar.

    As far as i can see OP will need planning permission i.e. this is not exempted development as it is to the side and affects a boundary. Exempted development in this case applies to rear development only and to the conversion of existing structures to the side.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched2

    "Development within the curtilage of a house

    CLASS 1

    The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house."

    Happy to be corrected Gumbo but the side allowance, as far as I can make out, is only for the conversion of existing structures, not new development to the side.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    coolbeans wrote: »
    As far as i can see OP will need planning permission i.e. this is not exempted development as it is to the side and affects a boundary. Exempted development in this case applies to rear development only and to the conversion of existing structures to the side.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched2

    "Development within the curtilage of a house

    CLASS 1

    The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house."

    Happy to be corrected Gumbo but the side allowance, as far as I can make out, is only for the conversion of existing structures, not new development to the side.

    Have a look at the exemptions for garages, stores and sheds (Class 3).
    The OP said they wanted storage to the side, not an extension.

    From the OP :
    My question is - I want to cover my side entrance completely. I want to fill it with shelves and some storage.

    This would allow for a 25 Sq. M garage/Store exemption to the side, even if visible from the front. I’ve done the same to my own house ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭ TheBoyConor


    Except it isn't a garage, storage or shed.
    Op has started that they want it to serve as they main entrance and convert the hallway into an office.

    It also affects the frontal appearance of the house and affects a boundary.

    It isn't exempt.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Except it isn't a garage, storage or shed.
    Op has started that they want it to serve as they main entrance and convert the hallway into an office.

    It also affects the frontal appearance of the house and affects a boundary.

    It isn't exempt.

    The OP wants to use the existing hall within the house. That’s fine.
    They then want to cover the side entrance with a door at the front and a door at the back. Essentially creating an external walkway from the front garden to the rear garden.

    They have made no mention of breaking through the gable wall into the main dwelling. Therefore this is class 3 and can be considered exempt.

    Your understanding of the regulations are slightly skewed. Effecting the frontal appearance of a property doesn’t determine if works are exempt or not. That are many types of works that effect the front appearance that are exempt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Sniipe


    Gumbo wrote: »
    OP, this is one of those unusual situations where a picture speaks a thousand words. This all comes down to the lay of the land and actual ownership.

    ...Fire regs can be overcome with the correct materials and in all likely hood, the gable wall of the adjoining house will
    Provide the 60m separation, the next thing is to ensure a roof finish that is non combustible so tiles, slate, fibreglass or Similar.
    I will post a picture after work to help clarify. I don't understand the 60m separation...
    coolbeans wrote: »
    As far as i can see OP will need planning permission i.e. this is not exempted development as it is to the side and affects a boundary. Exempted development in this case applies to rear development only and to the conversion of existing structures to the side.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched2

    "Development within the curtilage of a house

    CLASS 1

    The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house."

    Happy to be corrected Gumbo but the side allowance, as far as I can make out, is only for the conversion of existing structures, not new development to the side.
    Gumbo wrote: »
    Have a look at the exemptions for garages, stores and sheds (Class 3).
    The OP said they wanted storage to the side, not an extension.

    From the OP :


    This would allow for a 25 Sq. M garage/Store exemption to the side, even if visible from the front. I’ve done the same to my own house ;)
    I have no issue applying for planning permission. Its probably the safest thing to do.
    Except it isn't a garage, storage or shed.
    Op has started that they want it to serve as they main entrance and convert the hallway into an office.

    It also affects the frontal appearance of the house and affects a boundary.

    It isn't exempt.
    This is probably debatable. The main entrance would still be usable. I would orientate the office so that the front door is openable. The side would be used by us and people who know the house. The side would be used as a store/garage with shoes, jackets, winter wear etc...
    Gumbo wrote: »
    The OP wants to use the existing hall within the house. That’s fine.
    They then want to cover the side entrance with a door at the front and a door at the back. Essentially creating an external walkway from the front garden to the rear garden.

    They have made no mention of breaking through the gable wall into the main dwelling. Therefore this is class 3 and can be considered exempt.

    Your understanding of the regulations are slightly skewed. Effecting the frontal appearance of a property doesn’t determine if works are exempt or not. That are many types of works that effect the front appearance that are exempt.
    Yes, we are not breaking any wall.
    Living in the west having a side that is weather proof offers us more space to store stuff without it getting wet from the rain that can come from every direction.


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