Sunscreen

jethrothe2nd

I've always been a bit lazy about putting on sunscreen before/during cycling, but after a recent trip to the GP, I'll be changing my habits quicksmart. He took closeup pictures of what I have never considered as anything other than freckles and showed me the pictures. Pretty shocking. Not (at this point) cancerous, or anything that needs any intervention, but needs to be watched.

Thus followed a sobering lecture on what I might have to look forward to if I fail to slap on anything less than factor 50. In his own words, my cards are marked. No doubt designed to shock, but it had its effect.

No other point to this thread other than to encourage anyone who might be as laissez-faire as me about these things to perhaps consider otherwise.........

fat bloke

You're dead right. I've been trying to be better in that regard too myself. You don't feel the heat on the bike all the time but it's still regular UV radiation exposure for 3,4,5 hours at a time, a couple of times a week.... for half a lifetime. That'll add up, no question about it.

Kander

P20 is my go to option most times. Apply it once before going and your pretty well covered for the day, for me anyway. It can stain clothes though so be careful if you are using nice kit.

Large bottle small glass

By being ultra conservative in relation to sun exposure you control and reduce your risk to skin cancers but lose out on the benefits of sun exposure which reduce your risk to a whole host of other diseases which kill in bigger numbers.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/mnt/releases/308202#1

https://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/5/1548.short#sec-4

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/80/6/1678S/4690512?gca=80%2F6%2F1678S&gca=80%2F6%2F1717S&gca=80%2F6%2F1721S&sendit=Get%20All%20Checked%20Abstract(s)

jethrothe2nd

I guess there is a balance. Just from looking briefly at one of the linked articles:

Sensible sun exposure (usually 5–10 min of exposure of the arms and legs or the hands, arms, and face, 2 or 3 times per week) and increased dietary and supplemental vitamin D intakes are reasonable approaches to guarantee vitamin D sufficiency.

In the context of cycling I'd be out for an hour minimum which would clearly indicate the need for sunscreen based on that.

secman

I had a scare a couple of years ago , had to have a growth on my shin removed, thankfully benign, always use sunscreen since then, had a good chat with the dermatologist about the whole topic.

Macy0161

Currently undergoing photo therapy. Well I was, but small exposures have put it on hold this week! Around my watch, where my arm warmer must've slipped. And despite never burning there before*, I went knee warmers rather than full leg warmers and burnt my shins and calfs

This weekend looks like long sleeve and tights weather, but I've arm and leg UV sleeves on order, but will probably look again for the arms for ones with a thumb loop!

*I was in with the dermatologist, and he reckoned nothing to do with the photo therapy making me more sensitive, just exposure. However, I did go long legs rather than shorts (both on the bike and off) in recent weeks because of the photo therapy telling me to cover up.

Anyway, he said factor 50 half an hour before going out. Then a top up just before, and then every two hours.

TheBlaaMan

An important message, thanks

I use a fact 15 or 20 on my face each and every day x 365 and in sunnier weather F50 here after a similar scare and a non-cancerous mole was removed some years ago. I tan easily and dont really burn without having been really neglectful, but that is very rare. Nonetheless, the arms and legs haven't always received the same treatment and I have to remember to put on the suncream.

MojoMaker

Thanks for posting jethroII, a timely reminder.

I have a feeling cyclists in Ireland are probably the worst for this behaviour.

lochdara

I had a scar on my arm for a long time. I got it checked a few months ago to find it was basil cell carcinoma, a friendly form of skin cancer if you want to call it that. Consultant gave me cream which made my arm to like a war zone with cuts and scabs from hidden cells. its all cleared up now. He told me factor 30 + every 1.5 hrs and cover them if possible. I bought some castelli spf 50+ arm covers for bike and maybe kayak and bring cream too.

Breezer

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

By being ultra conservative in relation to sun exposure you control and reduce your risk to skin cancers but lose out on the benefits of sun exposure which reduce your risk to a whole host of other diseases which kill in bigger numbers.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/mnt/releases/308202#1

https://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/5/1548.short#sec-4

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/80/6/1678S/4690512?gca=80%2F6%2F1678S&gca=80%2F6%2F1717S&gca=80%2F6%2F1721S&sendit=Get%20All%20Checked%20Abstract(s)

I appreciate that you’re trying to educate people here, and you’re correct, vitamin D is important, and on the face of it, it’s reasonable to assume sunscreen would interfere with its synthesis.

However, the current evidence does not support this conclusion.

Your first link is not a scientific journal article. It’s a report on the findings of a bunch of outlier dermatologists. Their work is no doubt worthy of consideration, but we can’t take their findings, in isolation, as fact, over the consensus view based on the full body of available evidence.

Your second link is throwing up a 404 error, and your third is taking an exceptionally long time to load for me, I’m afraid. So I can’t comment on those.

Your fourth is a respectable review, but it’s 17 years old now.

See here for a more recent (albeit 7 years old) review of the available literature on the topic (pages 62-65 reference sunscreen). It actually references your 4th article’s author, but presents the results in the context of other studies which concluded differently.

Here is a 2019 study.

There is a need for more studies in this area, but the most recent evidence points towards sunscreen not preventing adequate vitamin D synthesis. Covering up with clothing, on the other hand, does, so you’re better off with the short sleeves.

I work with skin cancer. You don’t want it. Any of it. Melanoma is horribly lethal. The other types talked about in your first article, basal cell and squamous cell carcinomas, are generally much less lethal, although not always, particularly squamous cell. And they can still cause a lot of tissue destruction, and therefore need to be treated. And once you get one, you’re likely to get others. This can result in multiple unpleasant treatments (liquid nitrogen, creams that cause a lot of inflammation, radiotherapy, surgeries, skin grafts), disfigurement and scarring, and at the very least a lot of trips to the doctor for surveillance.

smacl

Breezer wrote: »

Here is a 2019 study.

Thanks for the link and an interesting read and great to get some input from someone with expertise in the area. I note the tests were carried out in Rio in August and involved SPF 30 protection. Are there any recommendations for suitable factors for this part of the world at different times of the year? I'd usually go SPF 20 on the face and SPF 30 on the arms and legs here and up it to SPF 50 in warmer climes.

Cionn

I do not think there is any debate for the need of sunscreen, and in my view its not just a summer need. However I have an issue of practicality with the application of it for a 3+ hour spin.
When I sweat the sunscreen combines with the sweat and gets into my eyes, rendering my sight borderline useless and I find that dangerous. Any recommendations for a product that can survive a spin and not get into the eyes. Only recently I have heard of something called a dry sunscreen.

magicbastarder

i never apply sunscreen to my forehead, the helmet is in the way.

Large bottle small glass

Breezer wrote: »

I work with skin cancer. You don’t want it. Any of it.

Thanks for your post.

You are right I don't want it, but I don't want any cancer, cardiovascular disease, depression etc etc, but if I live long enough one of them is going to get me. I also like strong bones, to sleep well and feel good sitting in the evening/morning sun.

My point isn't don't wear sunscreen; it is the regular ultra conservative message in the media and directly from dermatologists in relation to sun exposure is just that.

I have had a sister in law informed by a well regarded dermatologist to never have uncovered skin unprotected.

Here is well reference (if long) article on striking a balance between the benefits of sun exposure while being protected.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290997/

There is no zero risk strategy with sun exposure or anything in life. You can get your skin cancer risk to near zero but what does that do for all the health benefits of sun exposure? Is there a balance to be struck?

A GP can easy see and react to visible sun burn/heavy tan but in scaring the sh1te out of his/her patient could he/she do more damage in the long term if said patient going forward loses out on the health benefits of sun exposure(I'm not sure and there seems to be lots of evidence that it might be about more than just Vitamin D synthesis)

A small study in Brazil in August at their latitude and outdoor lifestyle with SPF 30 isn't conclusive in terms of an Irish person in our climate, our indoor lifestyle and our latitude. I'd like to know the results for your average Irish person getting 10-20hrs outside for a few months of the year with SPF30-50.

There is a well documented issue with Asian/African heritage infants in Australia with rickets in the quite recent years. Given our now diverse population any public health advice should reflect that. An immigrant(or the children of) from India for example will need more sun exposure to produce the same amount of Vitamin D and won't be as good at storing it as your random red haired native.

There is a world of difference I would have thought between some eejit lying the the sun unprotected for 2 weeks and remaining indoors for the other 50 weeks with someone
*avoiding high risk periods
*watching UV index forecasts
*protecting when out for prolonged periods
while still enjoying the benefits of the sun and not fearing it and making decisions for a position of fear rather than well educated reflection.


I spend a huge amount of my time outdoors and choose to deliberately expose lots of skin when low risk and avoid the sun completely when it is most damaging. If I am out at high risk periods(which are rare enough here) I cover up or use sunscreen.

I also regularly check my skin and go to GP if I see anything off. Luckily he is a gp who still cuts people and over 20 years has removed two benign moles I thought were new/different.

TheBlaaMan

Cionn wrote: »

I do not think there is any debate for the need of sunscreen, and in my view its not just a summer need. However I have an issue of practicality with the application of it for a 3+ hour spin.
When I sweat the sunscreen combines with the sweat and gets into my eyes, rendering my sight borderline useless and I find that dangerous. Any recommendations for a product that can survive a spin and not get into the eyes. Only recently I have heard of something called a dry sunscreen.

Just try a few types/brands. Some cause a lot of grief and others none at all. Experimentation is needed - costly, but worthwhile

positron

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

An immigrant(or the children of) from India for example will need more sun exposure to produce the same amount of Vitamin D and won't be as good at storing it as your random red haired native.

When would the Government take notice of this scientific fact and give folks like me some extra time off in Summer - to top up on vitamin D - it will reduce the burden on HSE surely.

As owner of the said slowly vitamin D absorbing skin - I am probably less prone to skin cancer compared to average boardsie - but I am not entirely immune from it either. My skin still burns if I get too much sun - although I personally never had skin blistering off or anything like that. Not a huge fan of sunscreens either. P20 is the best of the lot, but since my tropics adapted body-cooling-system (sweat glands) produce copious amount of sweat, P20 gets washed off fairly quickly (sorry if TMI).

So this year I am planning on buying more long sleeve UV protecting clothing to wear on the bike.

Tigerandahalf

Many people in Ireland are deficient or worse.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30943754.html

If you are using a suncream a factor 10 or 20 is plenty.
If it takes you 10 mins to slightly burn factor 10 will x10 that time, so 100 mins.

I am fine for 20 mins. I know my threshold from bad experience.
Factor 20 gives me plenty of protection when out for a few hours but I would always be cautious for fear of missing an area.

Wear a cap or hat and avoid the hottest parts of the day is good and simple advice.

A friend of my wife's mood was poor and was feeling unwell. She works in an office. She was so deficient the doctor put her on an oral dose.

A bit of balance.

I find the Calypso Once a Day brand good and is cheaper than p20.

breezy1985

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Many people in Ireland are deficient or worse.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30943754.html

If you are using a suncream a factor 10 or 20 is plenty.
If it takes you 10 mins to slightly burn factor 10 will x10 that time, so 100 mins.

I am fine for 20 mins. I know my threshold from bad experience.
Factor 20 gives me plenty of protection when out for a few hours but I would always be cautious for fear of missing an area.

Wear a cap or hat and avoid the hottest parts of the day is good and simple advice.

A friend of my wife's mood was poor and was feeling unwell. She works in an office. She was so deficient the doctor put her on an oral dose.

A bit of balance.

I find the Calypso Once a Day brand good and is cheaper than p20.

Avoiding the hottest part of the day is a big one that is often easy done. I spent a lot of time in London and people though 30+ was a good temperature to get drunk in and you would often hear people say it was the norm in "Spain or Australia" but it's not they go to the pub in the evening

DaveyDave

I got sunburned quite badly on Saturday when out for two hours. Forehead and neck were bad but also had burn lines on my forearms from wearing my light jacket going back home! I've been out walking 1-2 hours several times a week for the last year and generally don't burn often so I was surprised. I did put cream on but didn't bring it to reapply.

In the last year my increasing lack of hair required me to shave my head and I've been burning easily on my scalp so I try to suncream as much as possible. If it's clearly a nice day I'll cover my arms, neck etc. If it's just sunny but cloudy or not necessarily a hot day I'll just do my head/neck as I'm usually wearing a jacket.

I've been extra vigilant when cycling to work last week as it was quite sunny but Jesus Christ nothing worse than sweaty suncream making its way down onto your eyes. Need to invest in a high quality one as it just wouldn't wash away. Went to the toilet to thoroughly splash my face with water but it did nothing. My girlfriend has a fancy moisturiser with UV protection I might have a look into them as I hate the greasy feeling all over when applying creams to the arms but should try apply something more often.

magicbastarder

were you wearing a helmet?

breezy1985

Don't some sports people vaseline their eyes to stop sweat

magicbastarder

there's also this which someone mentioned here a few years ago.

https://www.sweatgutr.com/

AndrewJRenko

Time of day is significant too. Morning and evening commute times are a lot less dangerous than midday and afternoon spins.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

Don't some sports people vaseline their eyes to stop sweat

It's something I do and have done for years. Doesn't stop the sweat just diverts it away from the eyes. With or without sun cream sweat stings your eyes.

Macy0161

As I said, I got quite badly on Saturday. I was out a long time in fairness, but my forehead didn't get burnt wearing casquette and helmet.

rayman1

Personally I always use Parasol 25 https://www.irishbodycare.com/
One application, its waterproof and lasts all day.
Never got sun burned using it.

andy69

my doctor told me a few years ago to be sure to put suncream on my ears when out on the bike - not a place I used to instinctively apply it to be honest...just used to do the back and sides of my neck, and of course face, arms & legs - but anyways, I didn't see it mentioned in the thread specifically, so just in case other folk also neglect their poor ears I thought I'd just highlight that.

P20 for me if it's a long spin - applied once in the morning of the Marmotte for example and didn't need any re-application. It is a c u next tuesday to work with, and stains any white clothing, but very effective.

for the stingy eyes issues... I think I had seen some 'dry' sunscreen product, somewhere. Possibly in WheelWorx there in Dublin as they'd cater for Triathletes who'd be out for 10+ hours in their events

Breezer

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

You are right I don't want it, but I don't want any cancer, cardiovascular disease, depression etc etc, but if I live long enough one of them is going to get me.

Oh I agree, the death rate remains stubbornly at 100% regardless of what we do :P

Your post is long, and if I post a long reply to each point you made I'm going to bore most people on a cycling forum to tears, so I'm going to reply to what I think is the thrust of your argument, if that's ok.

You're arguing that there is a balance to be struck between protecting yourself from skin cancer and the beneficial effects of the sun. I couldn't agree more. What I'm saying is that, according to the most up to date scientific evidence, the use of sunscreen allows you to get the best of both worlds. You can enjoy the sun, absorb vitamin D and still protect yourself from cancer if you use it. Although depending on your skin type, age, and other factors, you may need to take a vitamin D supplement regardless of sunscreen use/sun exposure.

On the other hand, covering up excessively, and an indoor lifestyle, do negatively effect vitamin D absorption.

A small study in Brazil in August at their latitude and outdoor lifestyle with SPF 30 isn't conclusive in terms of an Irish person in our climate, our indoor lifestyle and our latitude.

Agreed, although I did post a review article, as well as an individual study. But I did it while running out the door the other day (edit: nope, at 1am! Shows where my head's at these days!). This is the one I was really looking for, a 2019 article by an international panel of experts in various specialties, including dermatology and endocrinology (the vitamin D people), reviewing the body of evidence available internationally between 1996 and 2017:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/bjd.17992

It's full of scientific jargon, so I'm just going to post the "Key Messages" from the conclusion (still a bit jargony, but hopefully not too bad"):

British Journal of Dermatology wrote:

Key messages

• The concentration of serum 25(OH)D is a good indicator of vitamin D status.
Target serum 25(OH)D should be at least 50 nmol/L (20 ng/mL).

• Vitamin D status is modulated by many intrinsic and extrinsic factors including genetic polymorphisms, skintype (pigmentation), age, health, sun exposurebehaviour, season, latitude, clothing and nutrition.

• Routine 25(OH)D screening is not recommended for healthy children and adults, nor is systemic oral vitamin D supplementation. However, it should be considered for people with deeply pigmented skins, those wearing clothing that covers most of the body,especially during pregnancy, and the elderly, or persons in institutions.

• Daily photoprotection is recommended for all skin phototypes, subject to local weather conditions and activities. This includes seeking shade, wearing hats and clothing, using sunglasses and broad-spectrum sunscreen use on exposed skin. These strategies will help preventsunburn, skin cancer and photoageing.

• SPF should also be adapted to lifestyle (clothing, outdoor activity, diet). High UVA-PF is advised in all cases.

The panel recommends:

- A daily use of low SPF protection (i.e. SPF 15) with UVA-PF protection in temperate climates with low UVB in wintertime to inhibit photoageing.

-SPF 30 in countries/locations with intense UVB radiation (lower latitudes, high altitudes) irrespective of season.

-High SPF and UVA-PF for recreational activities under intense solar exposure along with clothing and the use of shade.

• Sunscreen use for daily and recreational photoprotection need not compromise skin vitamin D synthesis, even when applied underoptimal conditions. Increasing the UVA-PF for a given SPF improves vitamin D3production.

• Patients with genetic or acquired photosensitivity disorders require strict photoprotection. Also at risk are patients with a history of skincancer and organ transplant recipients and those with malabsorption syndromes. Daily SPF 50+ with high UVA protection is strongly recommended for all these patients along with wearing protective clothing and seeking shade. This makes them prone to vitamin D deficiency and supplementation and screening is therefore advised for this population

I'd like to know the results for your average Irish person getting 10-20hrs outside for a few months of the year with SPF30-50.

There's no studies that I'm aware of on an Irish population. The British Association of Dermatologists recommends the following though, which I think is pretty well balanced:

• Protect the skin with clothing, including a hat, t-shirt and sunglasses
• Spend time in the shade between 11am and 3pm when it’s sunny
• Use a ‘high protection’ sunscreen of at least SPF 30 which also has high UVA protection, and make sure you apply it generously and frequently when in the sun.
• Keep babies and young children out of direct sunlight
• Tell your doctor about any changes to a mole

I don't think we're arguing with each other all that much. What you advocate with regards covering up when necessary, avoiding the mid day sun, etc. is sensible. But generally speaking, we in Ireland should be using sunscreen a lot more than we do, and the "healthy tan" (I know you didn't mention this) is a myth.

smacl wrote: »

Thanks for the link and an interesting read and great to get some input from someone with expertise in the area. I note the tests were carried out in Rio in August and involved SPF 30 protection. Are there any recommendations for suitable factors for this part of the world at different times of the year? I'd usually go SPF 20 on the face and SPF 30 on the arms and legs here and up it to SPF 50 in warmer climes.

See the British Association of Dermatologists recommendations above. More detail here: https://www.bad.org.uk/for-the-public/skin-cancer/sunscreen-fact-sheet

Breezer

andy69 wrote: »

my doctor told me a few years ago to be sure to put suncream on my ears when out on the bike - not a place I used to instinctively apply it to be honest

Yep, a common place to find sun damaged skin and non-melanoma skin cancer, and an awkward place to operate on.