Bullying/attack advice

Youcant_seeme

Hi all,
I am wondering if someone maybe be able to help me with what to do regarding this issue:
Son is in 1st class and on Friday 2 boys in the yard singled him out pushed him to the ground, sat on his stomach and chest pushing on him. My son is asthmatic and couldn't breathe so he was choking on his slavia and had to spit it out. It went on one the one boys coats and the principal got involved.
He gave my son a written warning about spitting even though he was attacked.
The other boys got away with what happened. Also this had happened before with no repercussions.
One of the boys has been at my son since junior infants and has even bit his teacher before.
We spoke with both his teacher and principal with no satisfactory outcome just that wel watch the yard more on break time.
The principal still basically blaming my son for what happened and will not speak to the other boys.
We think it is very unprofessional.
We are thinking of taking it further to have our sons warning recinded and for the other boys parents to be made aware and punished as to us it was a very serious incident as he keeps saying "I couldn't breathe
My son is an anxious wreck now and we genuinely don't feel he is safe and his trust in authority figures is damaged more than once in this school.
Any advice please?

XsApollo

This is the second post I’ve read about bullying in schools and helpless parents fighting against unhelpful schools.
Is there not some type of higher authority that these issues can be reported to?

spurious

Gardai.

Speedline

I'm speaking from a personal perspective, so take from that what you will. Bully's need a firm hand. Knock on the parents door and let them know. Don't beat around the bush. Do not be apologetic in any way, and be firm.
Tell them it stops now.

Woodward

Ideally you would take it to higher powers to resolve things properly but honestly your son is going to suffer more before this is resolved that way, if that even works. Bullies target people who dont fight back. It wont stop them bullying but your son being assertive and fighting back will more than likely make them move on, even if he gets a beating in the process. Its not the 'correct' thing to do, but it is effective

Treppen

XsApollo wrote: »

This is the second post I’ve read about bullying in schools and helpless parents fighting against unhelpful schools.
Is there not some type of higher authority that these issues can be reported to?

Given the hundreds of schools in Ireland this is not an unusual occurrence... Unfortunately

Anyhow...

Write a registered letter to the board of management stating your case. It will have to be read and recorded into the minutes of the meeting, but you must exhaust attempts at bringing it to a conclusion before doing this. Also ask to see their anti bullying policy and go through it with a fine tooth comb.

What I'm reading is that your kid got punished and the other kids didn't, and you fear it will happen again.

Is this going by what your child told you, or did the principal tell you the other kids weren't reprimanded?

If the other child has a history of aggression then the school have to deal with that... But a school is under no obligation to tell you about it, or tell you what punishments they give to other children.

Going to the guards is a bit extreme for 1st class, but if there is serious bodily harm going on the next time, then I think they should be making a friendly phone call to the principal.

Any way you could suss out the other parents? But best to avoid if any sense of confrontation.

.42.

If your son was assaulted. Contact the Gardai.

readysetgo

.42. wrote: »

If your son was assaulted. Contact the Gardai.

Super idea, set up a gofundme page there for a new wing on Oberstown for 7 year olds...


In the mean-time, as this is a school issue it needs to be dealt with in school by the school staff. I would address the matter in 2 ways.
1- arrange a meeting with the class teacher to discuss and give evidence of anything that has happened in class

2- Write an e-mail to the principal outlining incidences that have taken place on yard and that you are concerned about the level of supervision. ask if it is sufficient and that due to your son's asthma you are concerned similar may happen again

Leave the school put in place measures to deal with your concerns and give it a few weeks. If it happens again then you have given them fair warning and you can pursue a complaint via the Board of Management.

yoke

teach your son how to fight.



The police arent going to be able to do anything if there are no witnesses willing to make statements on your son's side, and no video footage.

costacorta

3 sides to every story , your sons side , the 2 boys side and somewhere in the middle lies the truth ? .

readysetgo

costacorta wrote: »

3 sides to every story , your sons side , the 2 boys side and somewhere in the middle lies the truth ? .

totally agree with this nearly always being the case in life.

there is no point escalating an issue that takes place in school to directly involving guards or other parents, it won't end well.

7 year olds can enjoy 'horseplay', wrestling, cops and robbers, mma, whatever they do these days and some need to be reminded to rein it in now and again. i'd imagine this is most likely the case here and can be dealt with by class teacher/snas/principal without it developing into a neighbourhood feud.

Treppen

costacorta wrote: »

3 sides to every story , your sons side , the 2 boys side and somewhere in the middle lies the truth ? .

Sometimes one side can be the truth too!

.42.

readysetgo wrote: »

Super idea, set up a gofundme page there for a new wing on Oberstown for 7 year olds...


In the mean-time, as this is a school issue it needs to be dealt with in school by the school staff. I would address the matter in 2 ways.
1- arrange a meeting with the class teacher to discuss and give evidence of anything that has happened in class

2- Write an e-mail to the principal outlining incidences that have taken place on yard and that you are concerned about the level of supervision. ask if it is sufficient and that due to your son's asthma you are concerned similar may happen again

Leave the school put in place measures to deal with your concerns and give it a few weeks. If it happens again then you have given them fair warning and you can pursue a complaint via the Board of Management.

Assault is assault. Why make the OP jump through hoops..


Call into your local station and see what they say OP.

Hobby farmer

.42. wrote: »

Assault is assault. Why make the OP jump through hoops..


Call into your local station and see what they say OP.

Not if the children in question are under the age of 12.

am_zarathustra

Best advice is to contact the BOM by letter. Depending on the makeup this can be very effective. Definitely ask for a meeting again with the principal to outline your concern and give them a chance to address them but the normal next step is the BOM. You should get notice that they letter has been recieved too. Depending on the make up of the board send it to the Chairperson or Secretary if it gets to that stage.

You seem pretty reasonable and like your just concerned for your child so hopefully it could be resolved with the principal but make it clear that if it isn't you will be going further with it. Sometimes that's the push that's needed.

Also worth asking for the incident report, there should be one.

Do not teach your child to fight back, violence met with violence is never the answer and it should not be taught to children at that age as an answer. Bullying comes from insecurities and a good school will deal with the perpetrators in that vein. Ask for the Anti Bullying policy if it is not available online. Be clear you understand the systems bad you and your child's rights.

daheff

Be the squeaky wheel that keeps at the principal, teacher and BOM to do something.

Ask, in writing, for a copy of schools anti bullying policy, and who is the designated person who is responsible for implementing & administering it.

Make 'noise' and nuisance for them to make them sit up and do something about the problem. Document everything. Once they see you start doing this they will be incentivised to fix the problem just to have you stop annoying them.

Don't go to the gardai or the bullies parents....at least not yet. You may find the gardai unsympathetic and the bullies parents even bigger bullies.

.42.

Hobby farmer wrote: »

Not if the children in question are under the age of 12.

You’re not allowed call the Gardai on Children under 12?

fryup

contacting the Guards?? for schoolyard bullying??? they'd scoff at the notion...they've got enough on their hands

*OP did the kids involve know your child had a asmethic condition?

Hobby farmer

.42. wrote: »

You’re not allowed call the Gardai on Children under 12?

You can ring the Gardai about anything you like, what they can or will do is another matter entirely.

The age of Criminal responsibility is 12 so given that these are 1st class students I’m assuming they are. So reporting an assault of this nature involving children under 12 will not achieve anything.

Youcant_seeme

fryup wrote: »

contacting the Guards?? for schoolyard bullying??? they'd scoff at the notion...they've got enough on their hands

*OP did the kids involve know your child had a asmethic condition?

Hi, last thing I will be doing is contacting the gards or parents outside of school. A similar incident happened before with same boys and was assured it was explained to them and wouldn't happen again etc. I understand that kids will fight, wrestle, rough play in school but issues with same kids especially one of them has happened to many times at this stage. I have drafted a letter for the principal and have asked for a phone call today so it can be resolved without going any further.

Turbohymac

Fairly pointless going to gardai if you're hoping that they will sort out the problem..
The issue is with the principal of the school and board of management..
Had similar issues only last year and we moved to a smaller But properly run school and no further problems..
Just ensure that there isn't any problems being initiated by your own son..explain the reason for changing school to your son.and ensure theres respect given and recieved when he changes school..theres no doubt some tit for tat bullying going on at present and this wont end..
Just move school for next term and forget the other kids and the teachers o
f the current school..
Also ensure that the new school has proper safeguarding systems in place and that they are adhered to..
Good luck

Iguarantee

am_zarathustra wrote: »

...Do not teach your child to fight back, violence met with violence is never the answer and it should not be taught to children at that age as an answer. Bullying comes from insecurities and a good school will deal with the perpetrators in that vein...

I disagree. Teaching your child to fight back is a valid form defence against bullies.

I very much appreciate these kids are ~7, I am also a parent, but the child should be taught that nobody is allowed to bully or hit them, under any circumstances. Their personal space and their mental & physical well-being is the priority, not the health of the bully.

I believe that kids should be taught self preservation skills. A very large part of that is social skills and awareness of themselves and their environment. A smaller, but important, part of that is being able to defend themselves.

Granted, kids do stupid things all the time but some people let their ego run riot and need to be put back in their box, that’s true of some kids and adults. I’m not at all saying just punch the bullies in the face as soon as they start their antics, but kids should have confidence in their own physicality and ability to commit violence when there are no other immediate options.

RealJohn

Turbohymac wrote: »

Fairly pointless going to gardai if you're hoping that they will sort out the problem..
The issue is with the principal of the school and board of management..
Had similar issues only last year and we moved to a smaller But properly run school and no further problems..
Just ensure that there isn't any problems being initiated by your own son..explain the reason for changing school to your son.and ensure theres respect given and recieved when he changes school..theres no doubt some tit for tat bullying going on at present and this wont end..
Just move school for next term and forget the other kids and the teachers o
f the current school..
Also ensure that the new school has proper safeguarding systems in place and that they are adhered to..
Good luck

I hope this is meant as a joke.

RealJohn

Iguarantee wrote: »

I disagree. Teaching your child to fight back is a valid form defence against bullies.

I very much appreciate these kids are ~7, I am also a parent, but the child should be taught that nobody is allowed to bully or hit them, under any circumstances. Their personal space and their mental & physical well-being is the priority, not the health of the bully.

I believe that kids should be taught self preservation skills. A very large part of that is social skills and awareness of themselves and their environment. A smaller, but important, part of that is being able to defend themselves.

Granted, kids do stupid things all the time but some people let their ego run riot and need to be put back in their box, that’s true of some kids and adults. I’m not at all saying just punch the bullies in the face as soon as they start their antics, but kids should have confidence in their own physicality and ability to commit violence when there are no other immediate options.

There’s a massive difference between teaching a child not to allow a bully to intimidate them and teaching them to fight back. The former is fine. The latter is not.

Iguarantee

RealJohn wrote: »

There’s a massive difference between teaching a child not to allow a bully to intimidate them and teaching them to fight back. The former is fine. The latter is not.

Why do you believe it’s not fine to teach a child to fight back?

Speedline

RealJohn wrote: »

There’s a massive difference between teaching a child not to allow a bully to intimidate them and teaching them to fight back. The former is fine. The latter is not.

Having been bullied in school, I can verify that striking back is the only way to deal with bullies, if the teachers won't put a stop to it.

fryup

RealJohn wrote: »

There’s a massive difference between teaching a child not to allow a bully to intimidate them and teaching them to fight back. The former is fine. The latter is not.

what if the former doesn't work? ...cause sometimes in certain situations a swift smack in the mouth is the only remedy

am_zarathustra

They are a children, an adult should be dealing with this. Teaching a young child that violence is the answer is a mistake, they are not old enough to understand proportional response. I've met enough parents over the years raising kids in that vein to know it's not the right decision.

Use the systems. There are defined protocols and duty of care to fall back on. Teaching a child to use their fists because adults can't deal with an issue is very poor example. Bullying is a complex issue that has to be tackled head on by adults and their are mechanisms in every school that legally need to be adhered to. Seems like the OP has started down the right road.

I've managed to go through my adult life without striking another human, and I've been hit a few times. My life wasn't in danger so striking back would have been from a place of shame or weakness, the same place the other person was striking me from. Any time you hit another human you could cause serious damage, we should never treat violence as casual or as an answer to any problem.

BingCrosbee

Speedline wrote: »

I'm speaking from a personal perspective, so take from that what you will. Bully's need a firm hand. Knock on the parents door and let them know. Don't beat around the bush. Do not be apologetic in any way, and be firm.
Tell them it stops now.

I wish it was as easy as that. We had the same situation after our daughter was badly bullied by a Cnut. Wife did exactly that and no joy. The bullies mother was exactly like the bully. Has had a huge effect on our daughter even though she is a hugely successful businesswoman.

RealJohn

All of that, really. Violence begets violence. Very bad example to set.

(@am_zarathustra)

byhookorbycrook

Get the school anti-bullying policy . Follow it to the letter of the law . Gardai will only refer you back to the school so a waste of time until you have followed the complaints’ procedure .

By law , the principal has to report on any bullying cases to the next BOM meeting.
Ask the principal what steps they are taking to keep your child safe .
Fighting back physically in the school yard will mean your child gets into serious trouble .

Remind him of the Stay Safe procedure : Say “No” or “ You are hurting me “ or similar in a loud voice , get away , tell an adult , be it teacher or SNA. Get him to rehearse la very stern vocal tone . Let him know it’s not his fault and that you will do everything to make sure it stops .
I hope you get this sorted and your son will feel safe and secure in school .

Tpcl20

As a child and an adult I have to say that I hit people who attempted to harm me. Children who are predisposed to violent outbursts are often not rational or reasonable. When they attack another child, the only language they will understand is retaliation. It's likely that they are seeing violence at home or exposed to violence in video games. From their peers, they are seeking feedback and if the feedback comes in the form of physical pain, in any cases I've come across, they won't do it again. It's like getting an electric shock - you're not going to touch the fence again after that. If you do, you're not functioning on the same level as most people. If they're not deterred by being humiliated and hurt instead of feeling the pride of having "won a fight" that they thought they'd get, there's something different going on there and they probably need help.

That said, as a former teacher, if I were to witness students fighting I would intervene and try and find out what happened. If it seemed like somebody obviously started the fight, I would speak with their parents and try and suss out if there was anything going on in their life that might be affecting them and causing to lash out. I would also contact the parent of the child who they were fighting with and do the same thing, and indicate that I had dealt with the other side of the situation. Any school should have a behaviour policy which would involve a warning for a first time, some form of disciplinary action for a second time (extra homework, detention etc).

The school may be at least a bit suspicious that your son was an equal party in the fighting. Are you sure it was two other boys ganging up on him and not three lads in a disagreement? Also no offence but the "asthma attack" excuse for spitting at somebody strikes me as a really terrible cover-up attempt for him spitting at somebody. Spitting at another child during a pandemic is a pretty lousy thing to do. Obviously they're not going to make an allegation like that unless they have direct proof, but the fact that they seemingly haven't done anything about the situation is odd.

Edit; just to clarify I have never, nor would I ever hit a child as an adult. Exposure to violence is now universally understood to cause severe emotional distress which can permanently psychologically damage and destabilise a child. Unfortunately many parents who were themselves physically abused perpetuate violence against their own children and these are the children who will act out. The school likely knows that these students would be battered at home if those students parents were alerted to every single incident. I'm not saying that it's right or fair, but it does sound to me like they're from a difficult background, whereas your child should "know better" than to react disproportionately (and especially, to get caught). If you could curtail your righteous indignation and use it as an opportunity to explain to your son the importance of watching your back, avoiding bullies, getting to a place where there's an adult nearby when he's threatened and only fighting back when it is absolutely 100% necessary (and definitely not spitting at people because that will get you in big trouble), then it could be a big learning experience for him. To let him know you have his corner but he needs to keep himself safe too. If the anxiety is too much around this, it might be an option to move school because if the issues have gone too far, sometimes scorched earth policy and a fresh start could be the better option.

You will probably know yourself what the right course of action is. But ultimately, fighting tooth and nail for justice probably won't get you anywhere here because your child spat at those boys - what you perceive to be an obvious consequence here is probably being stymied by a relatively complicated background situation.