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Banditry or blatant cheating whats worse?

  • 21-04-2021 12:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭ RoadRunner


    Quick poll. Something in another thread got me thinking. What's more morally corrupt - cheating by improving your lie, ie the foot wedge or purposefully building your handicap, ie banditry?

    One is a premeditated action that affects future games unfairly the legality of which is shady. The other is a blatant infringement, must be done in secret and affects the current game only.

    Which is morally the worst type of cheat? 95 votes

    Cheating by improving your conditions improving such as your ball lie (think Patrick Reed)
    90% 86 votes
    Cheating by reducing your score over a number of games to build handicap (banditry)
    5% 5 votes
    No moral difference both are equally wrong
    4% 4 votes


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭ finglashoop


    people are only cheating themselves.

    never mind anyone else.

    athe thought of coming second to a cheat or a bandit would piss me off but nothing really you can be done . have to trust everyone is doing the same as myself


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭ L.O.F.T


    Both are equally as bad.

    That said and from experience, there is no worse feeling seeing a fellow golfer cheat, your stomach drops.
    Believing a guy is cheating is different and assuming he / she is building a handicap may not be true and may only be your opinion. It's very hard to prove and tricky ground to accuse someone of doing so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,850 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    L.O.F.T wrote: »
    Both are equally as bad.

    That said and from experience, there is no worse feeling seeing a fellow golfer cheat, your stomach drops.
    Believing a guy is cheating is different and assuming he / she is building a handicap may not be true and may only be your opinion. It's very hard to prove and tricky ground to accuse someone of doing so.

    Yeh exactly. I’m the sole voter on A

    Have seen it blatantly first hand and it was rotten. Ball in the forest and a different ball comes flying out with their next shot. Asked them and they played dumb and continued on. Was too young to call them out on it properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    I really believe improving your lie and the like happen far more than you'd think. And I fully believe the majority of people don't think they're doing anything wrong, either because they say that's what everyone does so it's a level playing field, or they just convince themselves that they're not even bending the rules, let alone breaking them.

    I'm thinking of things like placing within 6 inches. 6 inches is about the length of your mickey. If you actually pay attention to people placing the ball, it's so often decided by where the nearest good lie is rather than the best lie within 6 inches no nearer the hole. I'd say the same for grounding the club when addressing the ball. You're allowed to ground the club, you're not allowed to flatten the grass in front of your ball. Taking relief at the nearest point of relief in fairness is one that I think people actually don't know. And I'll hold my hand up and admit that I was one of those people - I thought the nearest point of relief had to be in play so you couldn't be dropping in a hazard. But a lot of people go much further than that and pretty much pick a nice spot.

    But you see it time and time again that people can switch their brains off to believe what they want to believe. The lockdown has made this so apparent - I think of my sister in law fully believing that she was self isolating. While at the same time going shopping, going for walks with her other sister in law and seeing her boyfriend. But she 100% believed she was self isolating. It's the same for golf. Guys unquestionably break rules while at the same time giving out about the cheating epidemic in the game and not realising that they're talking about themselves. I could be one of them and so could you. It's not an excuse or anything. People should be self aware and not do it, but I'm not going to lose sleep over them.

    The banditry is a different thing. I actually do fear that if people start putting in casual rounds that you will have some people abuse that. I know when I'm not in a comp I'm much more likely to try shots that are not the right option. Maybe they'll convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with that too though. It might not be all that different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    blue note wrote: »
    I really believe improving your lie and the like happen far more than you'd think. And I fully believe the majority of people don't think they're doing anything wrong, either because they say that's what everyone does so it's a level playing field, or they just convince themselves that they're not even bending the rules, let alone breaking them.

    I'm thinking of things like placing within 6 inches. 6 inches is about the length of your mickey. If you actually pay attention to people placing the ball, it's so often decided by where the nearest good lie is rather than the best lie within 6 inches no nearer the hole. I'd say the same for grounding the club when addressing the ball. You're allowed to ground the club, you're not allowed to flatten the grass in front of your ball. Taking relief at the nearest point of relief in fairness is one that I think people actually don't know. And I'll hold my hand up and admit that I was one of those people - I thought the nearest point of relief had to be in play so you couldn't be dropping in a hazard. But a lot of people go much further than that and pretty much pick a nice spot.

    But you see it time and time again that people can switch their brains off to believe what they want to believe. The lockdown has made this so apparent - I think of my sister in law fully believing that she was self isolating. While at the same time going shopping, going for walks with her other sister in law and seeing her boyfriend. But she 100% believed she was self isolating. It's the same for golf. Guys unquestionably break rules while at the same time giving out about the cheating epidemic in the game and not realising that they're talking about themselves. I could be one of them and so could you. It's not an excuse or anything. People should be self aware and not do it, but I'm not going to lose sleep over them.

    The banditry is a different thing. I actually do fear that if people start putting in casual rounds that you will have some people abuse that. I know when I'm not in a comp I'm much more likely to try shots that are not the right option. Maybe they'll convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with that too though. It might not be all that different.


    Personally I think a premeditated thing like the foot wedge or ball down the trousers etc is much, much worse than banditry per se. For one thing, banditry is almost always only ever someone's opinion on another player. The ones who look like bandits often aren't, they're just inconsistent, and any real good bandits will do it in such a way as you'd never really know anyway.

    But there's also a difference between breaking the rules and cheating IMO. I'd bet we've all broken a rule inadvertently at some point over the years, or misinterpreted a drop situation or just done something we were never aware of or misunderstood.
    A trivial one I can remember - playing one morning a few years ago, absolutely p1ssing rain, and my playing partner went into a bunch of trees to play his ball out, he hit one of the branches a wallop to get the water off it so he wouldn't be soaked when he went in under it to play out. Neither he nor I had any idea it was against the rules, I actually found out quite randomly a while later. It made no difference to the competition and he was genuinely amazed when I said it to him - if you knew the guy, he wouldn't knowingly break a rule in a million years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    In that example he didn't even gain an advantage other than staying dry. I wouldn't be thinking about that at all.

    The examples I gave are where people do gain an advantage. And know the rule and would be able to criticise someone else for it, but suspend reason when it's their shot.

    The likes of a foot wedge or just giving a wrong score are out and out cheating. There's absolutely no coming back from those.


  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭ swededmonkey


    I'm not good enough for banditry. You never know when you're going to shoot a good score, so I'll take them when they happen. Its not all that often!


  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ Dtoffee


    Cheating during play is much worse and can be carried out every hole .... it can become a habit and an easy way to gain numerous shots per round. Other than your playing partners calling you out, club officials have no way of knowing if you are cheating

    Banditry may get you an extra shot or two on your handicap, but you still need to play well (and within the rules) on the day. Banditry can be seen by club officials on your scores and sudden improvement, the handicap system is there to help in this respect and cuts are applied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 WWEfansince90s


    During Covid last year there were three separate occasions where playing partners of mine blatantly recorded lower scores.

    Example: last year I played 9 holes with an 18 handicapper and mentally counted his score. He had two pars, two doubles and 5 pars. So 9 over and 18 points. He tapped in on the 9th and cheerily chirped ‘that’s a nice 20 pointer’.

    On another occasion in a Medal, a playing partner wrote down the wrong score on two holes just so he’d stay in the buffer and avoid his point one back!

    Point I’m trying to make is that at least when people are marking each other’s scorecard it’s more likely to be authentic so hopefully that’ll make a return soon!

    Because marking your own card is a license to cheat


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,929 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    During Covid last year there were three separate occasions where playing partners of mine blatantly recorded lower scores.

    Example: last year I played 9 holes with an 18 handicapper and mentally counted his score. He had two pars, two doubles and 5 pars. So 9 over and 18 points. He tapped in on the 9th and cheerily chirped ‘that’s a nice 20 pointer’.

    On another occasion in a Medal, a playing partner wrote down the wrong score on two holes just so he’d stay in the buffer and avoid his point one back!

    Point I’m trying to make is that at least when people are marking each other’s scorecard it’s more likely to be authentic so hopefully that’ll make a return soon!

    Because marking your own card is a license to cheat

    But you're supposed to be cross marking cards even with your own card, so a compare after the round with the marker should have cleared this one up?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭ RoadRunner


    A couple of thoughts. Banditry takes place over the course of a long time and is premeditated. Whereas the foot-wedge is likely a response to a perceived bad break and an instantaneous decision likely in the heat of the moment. The court system for example generally takes a more lenient view of the latter (but the poll results here don't bear that out)

    I had been thinking that a bandit is already breaking the rules and so the same person is way more likely to use the footwedge or the loosepencil more quickly. But on reflection I'm now swinging the other way on this and think that if someone is maintaining a sustained campaign to inflate their handicap over time they are likely doing this because they take the actual rules of golf more seriously. Are there many people who are both bandits and serial cheaters at the same time?

    I have heard in the past that golf societies based around football clubs are an out-and-out joke when they play. Their sport is based around not being seen to break the rules so the freedom that the course offers them to bend the rules is too much for them to handle!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭ Russman


    I think way more people would view on-course cheating a la the foot wedge as a much bigger line to cross than getting a 0.1 when you might have made the buffer.

    I think banditry is a very grey issue, its not black and white IMO - I honestly, hand on heart, don't think its nearly as big a thing as its made out to be. Of course there are some and it only takes a few for it to gain traction (or a run in the Pearse Purcell :D:D), but in my experience the vast majority of amateur/club golfers are just inconsistent. I think its a mix of Irish begrudgery "...bloody hell, how the F is Joe off 18 ? I played 9 with him one night last week and he had 3 birdies, F sake...," on one hand, and a bit of cute hoorism on the other - we've all seen/heard of inter-club teams being "prepared" from the year before.

    For me its simple, on course cheating is definite and provable and there's no come back from it, banditry is really just an amateur's opinion on another amateur and will vary wildly and can't be proven - is he playing bad or is he "playing bad" ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    Russman wrote: »
    I think banditry is a very grey issue, its not black and white IMO - I honestly, hand on heart, don't think its nearly as big a thing as its made out to be. Of course there are some and it only takes a few for it to gain traction (or a run in the Pearse Purcell :D:D), but in my experience the vast majority of amateur/club golfers are just inconsistent. I think its a mix of Irish begrudgery "...bloody hell, how the F is Joe off 18 ? I played 9 with him one night last week and he had 3 birdies, F sake...," on one hand, and a bit of cute hoorism on the other - we've all seen/heard of inter-club teams being "prepared" from the year before.
    [/I]" ?

    I think you're spot on here. I've driven two of the par 4s in my club with an iron (and am fairly happy I should be taking an iron for another depending on the tee and wind). I was level par for 9 holes on two of my last 6 rounds. And I'm off 17. That's the type of thing where someone says that handicap is dodgy.

    But if you just look at my last 20 scores 17 is absolutely fair enough. If anything it's going up. And the scores are all that matter, as they say there's no stories on the scorecard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ BraveDonut


    There is nothing worse than being beaten out of a prize by someone you know has cheated.

    Having said that, I feel sorry for anyone that plays golf to win prizes


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭ DuckSlice


    BraveDonut wrote: »
    There is nothing worse than being beaten out of a prize by someone you know has cheated.

    Having said that, I feel sorry for anyone that plays golf to win prizes

    I have witnessed someone cheat and to go up and collect a prize in a captains day, now it was just 10th place or something like that so speaking up wasn't worth the hassle, but if he was in the top prizes I think I would have spoke up.

    He practiced on the course the morning of the comp in front of everyone, no shame.

    And you are right, its nice to win prizes, but for me the best prize is beating my PB


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ phelimb


    BraveDonut wrote: »
    There is nothing worse than being beaten out of a prize by someone you know has cheated.

    Having said that, I feel sorry for anyone that plays golf to win prizes

    Tend to agree with this - I play for the enjoyment not for prizes, maybe get a better score than last week, get a birdie on a hole I've not got one on for a while/ever, hit a perfect drive or a perfect approach or sink a long putt - if a prize comes from it then great but just one shot can make my round.
    If I know somebody has cheated, regardless of whether they won something or not, it does p... me off but they are only fooling themselves and I go home happy anyway with my own honesty intact!

    Must admit, I had to google 'foot wedge' which was mentioned a few times in this thread, didn't know there was a term for that....


  • Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭ mrskinner


    My club has an online timesheet. As of today there are several 3-balls and 4-balls from 3+ households booked. The club seems to allow this. Has there been a change in the rules?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭ coillcam


    mrskinner wrote: »
    My club has an online timesheet. As of today there are several 3-balls and 4-balls from 3+ households booked. The club seems to allow this. Has there been a change in the rules?

    AFAIK the 2 ball limit still applies. Our club secretary emailed about this over the weekend saying they would intervene and remove members from slots where the rule would be broken. At the same time, they invited members to get in touch if households were bubbling or a grey area. For today I see pretty good compliance but maybe 1 or two questionable groups.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    What does he mean by grey area?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭ RoadRunner


    mrskinner wrote: »
    My club has an online timesheet. As of today there are several 3-balls and 4-balls from 3+ households booked. The club seems to allow this. Has there been a change in the rules?

    There's a thread already for this https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058078873&page=96


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭ coillcam


    blue note wrote: »
    What does he mean by grey area?

    I'm paraphrasing but the gist is any group that has more than two households but believes they should be allowed to play together for reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ phelimb


    mrskinner wrote: »
    My club has an online timesheet. As of today there are several 3-balls and 4-balls from 3+ households booked. The club seems to allow this. Has there been a change in the rules?

    The online system at my club only allows 2 per slot. But in reality there is nothing stopping 2 groups of 2 joining up at the second tee for a 4 ball.

    On a similar note, last year when the courses were open but the 5K travel limit was in place, my own club did nothing to regulate it and allowed folk from outside 5K to book slots and play away.

    Meh, what can you do? It's up to the clubs to manage things based on the rules...and individuals to stick to them


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭ slave1


    Off Topic posts being reported so can we stick to the "Banditry or blatant cheating whats worse topic" please

    Cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,628 ✭✭✭✭ Seve OB


    I think by and large most of us here are playing golf and trying to genuinely improve. But I also play golf to win and have no shame in saying that. Of course it doesn't happen that often in the grand scheme of things. :rolleyes:

    I'm sure most of us have hit at least a shot or 2 here and there which came out of the top drawer, you know, something Tiger would be proud of. That's the thing about golf, we can all actually pull off unreal shots every so often, or drain long puts and ride a bit of luck along the way and pull a score together but the hard thing is doing it like Tiger did it. Consistently.

    But then you get the gobsh1ts who see you hit a wonderful shot or post a score and automatically think you should be a scratch player and start the banditry calls. If they want to play that game, away with them just as much as the fella who does go out of his way to pull his strokes and post big numbers just to get .1 or whatever it is back. Let them off and don't give them any concern. If they go out and win big because of it.... well they know what they have done and I'm sure they are mighty proud. :o

    I am not a fan of the new WHS where ones handicap can fluctuate so much and I would much rather have seen a lower allowable increase, but not aimed at stopping the bandits going out. Rather for my own self as I don't want to see the handicap increasing when I was so close to the magical single digits before the change to WHS (9.5). A bad round before when you had maxed out your .1's meant nothing. Now every round counts, even if it doesn't actually count because sometimes when you are not on your game, bad rounds can come along like busses. Now those bad rounds are starting to form some of your best 8. :( It's hard to know yet, but hopefully we won't see to much real change in the average method but I guess it will help those who want to abuse it.

    Abusing the handicap rules I suppose is not really cheating, just like taking advantage of a rule on the course to actually benefit yourself is not cheating. You are only cheating yourself if you engage in that carry on.

    But a foot wedge, or "finding" a lost ball or just dropping one down because this is about where I should be, or calling a birdie when you had a treble :eek: ..... well that's blatant cheating and it stinks a hell of a lot more in my book.


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