Gross misconduct

RandomGirl78

Hi,

one of my closest friends have been working for a company for 8 years now, with an absolute clean sheet. As I was working with her for 5 years now, I can say, that she’s an absolute fantastic colleague, with great results in her job.

Though there were irregularities, especially with the salary, in at least 4 occurrences, caused by mistakes of our managers, she was always a loyal employee. One of those, starting always early and finishing late, going the extra mile for customers, colleagues and the company.

Recently she developed some problems in her life, like her partner lost job, the landlord is selling the house, the car broke down, costing a lot of money, her partners mum died. Simply a lot of issues piled up, adding to the stress we have at work currently.

Now it came up, that she took some goods from our stock a few months ago. It was a single, isolated incident and the goods were of relatively low value.

In the investigation meeting, I witnessed, she didn’t try to hide what she did, admitting her fault instantly. She explained the situation, even pointing out that it is no excuse and that she didn’t come up herself, as she was too ashamed. And offered to pay for the goods.

I wonder if there is any advice for situations like this, any argument that might be helpful. Personally I feel that it would simply be too harsh, to fire her, though the procedures for misconduct are strict. Especially as she always was like “We are all humans and make mistakes” when her salary was not paid out correctly.

dobman88

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

Hi,

one of my closest friends have been working for a company

Now it came up, that she took some goods from our stock a few months ago.

In the investigation meeting, I witnessed, she didn’t try to hide what she did, admitting her fault instantly.

the procedures for misconduct are strict.

These are the only relevant parts to your post imo. You say yourself the procedures are strict and she has admitted to theft.

In the grand scheme of things it might be small but the company clearly have strict rules. Her best bet is to try and move on and secure another job.

antix80

The salary mistakes are just that.. Mistakes. Pathetic to mention it

I doubt many employers could tolerate an untrustworthy employee. Personally, I'm a line manager and I'm responsible for my direct report's behavior and mistakes... I'd likely refuse to have someone like that report to me because I don't have time to check security cameras.

From an internal controls point of view she has to go.

Probably time for her to move on.

Jim2007

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

In the investigation meeting, I witnessed, she didn’t try to hide what she did, admitting her fault instantly. She explained the situation, even pointing out that it is no excuse and that she didn’t come up herself, as she was too ashamed. And offered to pay for the goods.

And that is strike two! She did not own up to it and was not concerned about the suspicion and pressure that her colleagues were under as a result of her behavior.


While it is natural for you to feel for your friend, there reality is that lots of people have problems, especially now, but they did not resort to stealing but struggled on. And I would expect that others on the team could also have done without the extra hassle of being under suspicion. You can't ask people to continue working with someone that has done that to them.

jimmycrackcorm

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

In the investigation meeting, I witnessed, she didn’t try to hide what she did, admitting her fault instantly. She explained the situation, even pointing out that it is no excuse and that she didn’t come up herself, as she was too ashamed. And offered to pay for the goods.

I wonder if there is any advice for situations like this, any argument that might be helpful. Personally I feel that it would simply be too harsh, to fire her, though the procedures for misconduct are strict. Especially as she always was like “We are all humans and make mistakes” when her salary was not paid out correctly.

She got caught stealing. If this were a Garda investigation, it would be of no use in a Garda interview admitting it and then expecting there should be no court case and the likely outcome.

The only mitigation is to point out an otherwise unblemished record but that's not going to fly much when the employer's trust has been broken. What message will it send; that employees are free to steal and if they get caught, will go unpunished...?

antix80

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

the employer's trust has been broken. What message will it send; that employees are free to steal and if they get caught, will go unpunished...?

2 issues.

1. Trust is broken.

2. It's not about sending a message. It's about precedent. If she's not fired and another employee does the same thing, they shouldn't be fired either. Otherwise they can attribute any motive to tge employer treating them differently - victimisation, racism, ageism, etc.

The employer's options are 1.let it blow over, unlikely as they investigated. 2. A disciplinary measure up to and including termination or... 3. The most heartbreaking of all. Give the employee the opportunity to quit.

RandomGirl78

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

She got caught stealing. If this were a Garda investigation, it would be of no use in a Garda interview admitting it and then expecting there should be no court case and the likely outcome.

The only mitigation is to point out an otherwise unblemished record but that's not going to fly much when the employer's trust has been broken. What message will it send; that employees are free to steal and if they get caught, will go unpunished...?

Nobody said anything about “unpunished”. But it looks like most people see it just black or white

Even in a legal case, there are different outcomes, depending on the facts.

If you are a known offender, the punishment would be worse. Admitting into wrongdoings are often leading to a lower sentence, especially when you are honestly sorry. And of course, the value of the stolen goods and some circumstances would be taken into account as well.

RandomGirl78

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

Nobody said anything about “unpunished”. But it looks like most people see it just black or white

Even in a legal case, there are different outcomes, depending on the facts.

If you are a known offender, the punishment would be worse. Admitting into wrongdoings are often leading to a lower sentence, especially when you are honestly sorry. And of course, the value of the stolen goods and some circumstances would be taken into account as well.

The consideration for the employer is the precedent set. If someone caught stealing is given anything short of being let go, then anyone caught in the future would argue that they deserve only what your friend received. Unfortunately the employer often assumes that this may not be the first time she stole, just the first time she was caught.

OMM 0000

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

she took some goods from our stock a few months ago.

This is the only relevant fact here.

She stole (criminal act) and got caught.

Best case scenario is they fire her and that's the end of it.

I have sympathy for your friend and I believe you that in normal times she's a decent person.

C3PO

I would think that the best she can hope for is to get out of there with her reputation intact!

1hnr79jr65

In my position of managing others and investigating internal fraud in one of companies i worked for, it came up that 2 lads i got on very well where scamming the company out of product worth many thousands of euros through exploiting a system. And while i got on well with them, i had no issue in outing them to management, documenting everything to help bring legal proceedings against the 2 of them.

Both had family/personal issues, however it did not excuse their actions and if they were willing to steal on such a large level then, who knows if they could have stolen from colleagues.

In your friends case, her personal circumstances are unfortunate and you can empathize with that, however she must be held accountable for her actions, why should anyone or any company absorb a loss for someone else theft. Loss if it gets out of control could end up hurting the company and putting jobs in danger in the long run.

Best thing she can do is resign immediately.

Darc19

If you can be sure that the goods were low value and it's a one off, them I would look at it in an empathetic way.

Life can throw up all sorts of obstacles, some of us handle them well, some of us don't.

She seems to have had a fair whack of unplanned issues and I'm sure covid has not helped.

I'd look at what holiday she has built up and suggest that she takes 2 weeks to get her head straight again.


I would have a caveat that you are taking her on her word and if an incident happens again, it will lead to immediate dismissal, but at the same time to come to me if things get difficult

juno10353

Having been on jury duty in a case where an employee stole goods, the judge went to great lengths to instruct us that stealing from an employer is a greater crime than that of stranger as an employee has a duty of care to employer

'She was always a loyal employee'...until she stole from her employer. I appreciate she's been going through a rough time personally and perhaps her employer will consider it a once-off lapse in judgement but you'd struggle to trust an employee again after that and always wonder where the next lapse in judgement will be. If she hasn't already done so she should familiarise herself with the Company policy on conduct so she knows what her options are and goes into any conversation well-informed.

Jim2007

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

If you are a known offender, the punishment would be worse. Admitting into wrongdoings are often leading to a lower sentence, especially when you are honestly sorry. And of course, the value of the stolen goods and some circumstances would be taken into account as well.

And it could have been worse, the company could have reported the matter to the Garda and she might be facing a criminal prosecution and all the publicity that involves.

And contrary to what you'd like to think, courts to do not look kindly on individuals who only own up when caught.

Kander

I can understand the company point of view as other posters mentioned it's black and white. However this might play out differently in the WRC depending on the circumstances if a case was brought forward.

If the theft is of an item of minimal value say €5 and the outcome of this disciplinary is gross misconduct & dismissal. The WRC, if a case is taken, would look to see if the punishment was reflective of the seriousness of the infraction. Factors such as length of service and any previous cases would need to be shown that they were taken into consideration by the company.

If the item was of minimal value then there could be a case for unfair dismissal if it went that far.
If the item was work €5000 that's a different story.

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

'She was always a loyal employee'...until she stole from her employer.

Always ... regarded as ... a loyal employee, until she got caught.

Leopards rarely change their spots.

bucketybuck

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

I wonder if there is any advice for situations like this, any argument that might be helpful. Personally I feel that it would simply be too harsh, to fire her, though the procedures for misconduct are strict. Especially as she always was like “We are all humans and make mistakes” when her salary was not paid out correctly.

I assume that when you ask for advice, you mean that you want suggestions for things that your friend can do in her defence? You are just a bystander in all this and don't work for the company yourself, correct?

Personally I don't think you are helping her with all the personal opinions about this being too harsh, or that previous mistakes with salary mean that this theft was somehow mitigated. You are her friend, of course you think it is harsh, would you think the same about a stranger? Its one thing to support a friend but if she gets a sense of entitlement because of it or tries to claim that the company is being unfair then that could be like a red rag to a bull.

She stole from work. She should apologise profusely and throw herself on their mercy because they are well within their rights to bring criminal charges never mind to just dismiss her. Say that she made a mistake but has always tried to be a good employee and it won't ever happen again. But don't go in trying to defend the indefensible or claim that things that happened in the past somehow make stealing ok.

shtpEdthePlum

I would definitely be a sympathetic person, however in this situation there is a clear violation of ethical protocols which all workplaces would find impossible to overlook.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

I assume that when you ask for advice, you mean that you want suggestions for things that your friend can do in her defence? You are just a bystander in all this and don't work for the company yourself, correct?

From the sounds of the OP they work or have worked together at this employer as colleagues (and are also friends).

Jim2007

Kander wrote: »

I can understand the company point of view as other posters mentioned it's black and white. However this might play out differently in the WRC depending on the circumstances if a case was brought forward.

If the theft is of an item of minimal value say €5 and the outcome of this disciplinary is gross misconduct & dismissal. The WRC, if a case is taken, would look to see if the punishment was reflective of the seriousness of the infraction. Factors such as length of service and any previous cases would need to be shown that they were taken into consideration by the company.

If the item was of minimal value then there could be a case for unfair dismissal if it went that far.
If the item was work €5000 that's a different story.

The company's first defense step would be to file a complaint with the Garda resulting in a criminal prosecution. Which would result in any WRC case being frustrated at best.


You can't go around breaking the law and expecting the protection of the judicial system.

3DataModem

RandomGirl78 wrote: »

Hi,

one of my closest friends have been working for a company for 8 years now, with an absolute clean sheet. As I was working with her for 5 years now, I can say, that she’s an absolute fantastic colleague, with great results in her job.

Though there were irregularities, especially with the salary, in at least 4 occurrences, caused by mistakes of our managers, she was always a loyal employee. One of those, starting always early and finishing late, going the extra mile for customers, colleagues and the company.

Recently she developed some problems in her life, like her partner lost job, the landlord is selling the house, the car broke down, costing a lot of money, her partners mum died. Simply a lot of issues piled up, adding to the stress we have at work currently.

Now it came up, that she took some goods from our stock a few months ago. It was a single, isolated incident and the goods were of relatively low value.

In the investigation meeting, I witnessed, she didn’t try to hide what she did, admitting her fault instantly. She explained the situation, even pointing out that it is no excuse and that she didn’t come up herself, as she was too ashamed. And offered to pay for the goods.

I wonder if there is any advice for situations like this, any argument that might be helpful. Personally I feel that it would simply be too harsh, to fire her, though the procedures for misconduct are strict. Especially as she always was like “We are all humans and make mistakes” when her salary was not paid out correctly.

The problem is trust.

Every time there is an irregularity, the person will be suspected. It is human nature.

In her spot I would
1. Go and see GP to get assistance managing stress.
2. Request from employer that her unblemished 8-year record be taken into account.
3. If the company is going to proceed with a gross misconduct sanction, offer to resign before it is executed.

Jequ0n

If they bothered to check cctv the goods can’t have been that low in value....we’re clearly not talking a couple of tea bags here

Soilse

her only option is to throw herself at the employers mercy apologize unreservedly, explain the stress she has been under but say its not an excuse. As she has a good track record she may be okay but the trust will be gone, depends where she lives if its near a large city then might be best to start looking if not then be prepared for a few rocky years to regain a level of trust from the employer

Mrs OBumble

Jequ0n wrote: »

If they bothered to check cctv the goods can’t have been that low in value....we’re clearly not talking a couple of tea bags here

I've known people convicted over tea bags - but that was because they could be proven. Other items could not be proven, though they were strongly suspected

Akesh

Low value theft doesn't really make a difference. Depending on the structure of the company, stealing can create additional problems for companies if not dealt with. Very rarely does someone get caught stealing on their first attempt.

This could be embarrassing for the company if stock was stolen and not discovered for months later. This creates issues with internal control, audit etc. etc.

If she had some responsibility in the company I would expect her to be terminated for stealing.

ThreeGreens

Can you give an indication of the value of the item?

The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if the item was of such small value, then how did it come to light? Most companies would not go checking into CCTV records because a pen went missing from the stationary cabinet!

So I'm guessing that either the value isn't so insignificant or while the individual items might be insignificant, the company had suspicions that there was significant thief going on, an conducted an investigation to find out and this one small item is jus the tip of the iceberg .....the tip that they can prove.

So what was the value, and how did the theft come to light?

Jequ0n

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've known people convicted over tea bags - but that was because they could be proven. Other items could not be proven, though they were strongly suspected

The reason I mentioned it was that there are certain grey areas where you might “get away” with it, e.g. some tea bags vs actual company product. I can just speak for myself but if I was to take company products for distribution from my workplace I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting away with it without a police investigation.