Rights when school drops certain leaving cert subjects

totthots

Hi, my daughters school is currently allocating subjects for next Sept, 5th & 6th year leaving cert cycle and have advised us that our daughters chosen subject for leaving cert, Music, is not going ahead as only 7 students put it down as their preferred subject to study. They say not enough numbers so not going ahead...have we any recourse, they say purely its a numbers issue, even tho there is a music teacher etc....any advise welcome.

spurious

The Department would be unlikely to fund a class of only 7. If they could get numbers up past 12 or so, you might be able to make a case.

Any chance some extras might join?

MathsNerd78

The Department provides the school with an allocation of teachers. It is then up to the management of the school what subjects to offer based on their allocation, i.e. the school sets its own priorities. It’s quite common to have a music class with only seven students. However, another subject is likely to suffer as a result of allocating one teacher to so few students.

picturehangup

That is such a shame.

Is there any possibility that your daughter could take it outside of school?

If there are other students in the school who wish to take it, perhaps a teacher could be found to take the 7 students outside of the school timetable, possibly paid by the parents? I know it's not ideal, but when I started teaching music years ago, I facilitated such a class, but I was paid by the school. I took the class twice weekly for an hour each time.

Feel free to PM me, if you wish.

spurious

There may possibly be an argument to be made that by offering JC Music an expectation was created that she would be able to do LC Music.

I know the Department in similar cases (where a teacher left in 5th yr) was obliged to fund a teacher outside any allocation. Whether the JC is considered the same 'course of study' as the LC might be a tricky one to argue.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

There may possibly be an argument to be made that by offering JC Music an expectation was created that she would be able to do LC Music.

I know the Department in similar cases (where a teacher left in 5th yr) was obliged to fund a teacher outside any allocation. Whether the JC is considered the same 'course of study' as the LC might be a tricky one to argue.

I don't think the Dept will go for that. LC subjects are about supply and demand. Schools don't have unlimited allocation so have to provide subjects that will satisfy the majority. Most schools would have it written into school policies that subjects are offered and put on subject to demand.

In my school it looks like Art won't run in fifth year this year because only 3 have chosen it. That's the first time I've seen that happen in 20 years.

spurious

Yes I wouldn't be too hopeful. The situation I was referring to was where a teacher of a specialist subject left in May of 5th year and the class were left high and dry. An ex-quota arrangement was made for the class.

Treppen

To my mind it looks really bad if a school has offered a minority subject for junior cert and then pulled out for leaving cert. If this is the first time numbers are unexpectedly low then they should make an exception. Do they expect your child to choose another subject they're not as good at!

Imagine if I was teaching a good JC music class and had students really doing well with good potential for leaving cert music/points. If that rug were pulled from those students it is genuinely affecting their overall LC points.

Very often I've had strong and weak students having music as their best subject and capitalising on the points reward (and mental health!) Benefits.

By any chance is the music teacher in that school teaching another subject (like Irish or Maths!).

Looks like the limiting to ten subjects in junior cycle is coming home to roost in LC.

OP, I would attempt to contact the music teacher in the school and find out a bit more.

Also if they're cutting a subject for the leaving it raises major concerns for all of those students in Junior Cycle now studying music... This is very much an issue for the parents council, and worthy of stating your concerns in a letter to the BOM. Nothing may come of it but at least it's been put on record and that the school were warned of future roadblocks for the Junior Cycle cohort and incoming students who were told music was on the menu.

Also on the off chance the patron on the BOM is from a religious order, contact them , despite many people's gripes with religious orders, they do see the value in an "holistic" education that incorporates the arts.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116975532#Comment_116975532

how would another class suffer by having the music teacher teach music?

RoamingDoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836025#Comment_117836025

Because the music teacher wouldn't be available to cover one of their other subjects. From the school's perspective, this would be taking an Irish teacher or an English teacher from a normal class size, giving them to a very small number of students for those times, and then making up the deficit by increasing the number of students in the subject they were removed from.

In the event that the music teacher only taught music (not that common), they'd then by down a substitute or someone who could do work that keeps the school functioning in terms of admin.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860276#Comment_117860276

what do music teachers teach apart from music?

RoamingDoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860338#Comment_117860338

Typically an arts subject that they would have studied as part of their music degree.

The music teacher in my school also taught French but I know of others who teach Irish, English, etc.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836025#Comment_117836025

It's not relevant what the music teacher's other subject is or that they are teaching music. The point is that if a school decides to put on a class for 7 students then it is likely that another subject on the block is bursting at the seams. This is not the case in all schools, and it depends on the number of students in a year group and the subjects offered, but in theory if you had a year group with 90 students in it and put on a block with say Music, Biology, Geography, Business as the options, and 7 chose music, then the other 83 are split across the other three subjects. As sciences have a max capacity of 24, then you have 59 between Geography and Business so likely two classes of 30 and 29. Now this scenario might not play out exactly like this but any school offering a minority subject can end up with larger classes in others subjects on at the same time, so while the student in the class of 7 is getting almost private tuition, the student in the class of 30 is not.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906546#Comment_117906546

how is the fault of the people that chose music?

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906634#Comment_117906634

I didn't say it was their fault, you're putting words in my mouth. Schools will make decisions to suit the majority not the minority. If they can accommodate the minority they will, but they can't on every occasion so if they can't justify running a subject it will be dropped. Sometimes on a temporary basis, sometimes on a permanent one.

AnRothar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906634#Comment_117906634

It is not.

But something people miss is life is not fair.

And as Mr Spock said "the needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few of the one" .

It is often a simple matter of prioritising finite resources.

Wanderer78

....maybe an issue for a person trying to pursue a career in this field, what happens then?

looksee

Or they co-operate with another nearby school that has a (say) small music class and arrange for students to attend together. It means some clever timetable juggling to make it work, especially when class times vary a bit, but it can be done.

AnRothar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907185#Comment_117907185

Two things,

one the child will learn early that life.is not fair.

Or

two parents move the child to.a.different.school. This only works if the child is a true prodigy.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907312#Comment_117907312

jesus christ, some people truly have issues! we have the abilities to try create these opportunities for kids, a workable solution has already been provided above, i.e. schools sharing resources. yes we all know life isnt fair, but beleive it or not, some minds simply cannot convert to other ways of thinking and processing this world. the world needs artistic minds, but the world of arts, particularly in the modern world, is continually shafted, as it is deemed by many as being, 'non-productive'. a 'true prodigy', ffs! so we can create an elitist world or something!

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907336#Comment_117907336

Nobody is saying that kids shouldn't study music or another minority subject, but not every town has two schools, even in towns that have two schools they sometimes don't offer the same subjects. Schools don't have infinite resources, they all ask for voluntary contributions. Those contributions help to buy things like toilet roll and pay the bills in many cases.... nothing fancy. In some cases if a student can't get a subject the school can work with a local school to provide minority subjects, in some cases they can't because they schools are too far away from each other to walk between in a reasonable time, in some areas there simply isn't the demand between two schools, in some towns there is only one school. In some cases if the student wants the subject badly enough, they will move school, or do the subject outside school. This just doesn't apply to the subjects like art and music, this can apply to any subject. My school has no fifth year class in history or art this year because there wasn't a demand for either subject. Sometimes subjects are offered in a school and a student picks two subjects and they end up on the same block so they have to choose between them and the subjects aren't popular enough to warrant a second class in either on another block.

ireallydontknow

My opinion from what follows will be obvious, but I won't engage in the fractious debate because I think most of what there is to be said has already been. But I would just say, expanding on what someone else said, that most LC subjects are not prerequisites for their corresponding university courses. One exception is Art. A student who has not studied Art at LC, and been educated in how to produce a portfolio of work, will struggle to gain entry to the best art courses.

looksee

There are one or two year portfolio courses in many PLCs and doing a year in one of these is a great stepping stone from school to University regardless of subject.