Who has right of way at this junction?

dubrov

Hi all,

I was cycling a few days ago at this junction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2976853,-6.1712718,18z
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.296461,-6.1700586,3a,75y,144.07h,95.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sePC8LcPaEm9wB94scOaU3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I was cycling away from town and looking to go straight on to Temple Hill road.

I had assumed I had right of way with motor traffic but had to stop as a car from behind overtook me at speed to turn left down Temple Park Avenue.

I went to go again but the second car did the same thing. The third car beeped as if to say I am coming so watch out. I then had to sit there and watch about 10 cars go left before the light went red and a green light for bikes only came on.

I wasn't going to run the gauntlet against car traffic so was always about 2 metres back from danger.

As you can see from Google Street view the bike path is off road in the lead up to the junction but clearly joins the road a good bit before the junction.

My question is, who has right of way in this scenario and why?

TheW1zard

Theres a bike lane with a green for bikes.
You've to wait for the green

eeeee

That junction is spectacularly badly designed, and a model of how not to do a junction off a cycle path.

When I come up there I come off the cycle path early cross into the right hand lane up the hill and go straight with the cars.
Otherwise you're hitting a red light to keep going on straight to traffic that wants to turn left even though you're hoping straight on!

magicbastarder

what did the bike specific traffic light show?

i used to cycle that on my way to work; i was heading for newtownpark avenue. that particular arrangement has appeared since i was last there.
i always used to take the road because of the ambiguity of taking the bike lane, but it's not something i'd have advised for someone not willing to sprint, as it's uphill.

eeeee

The bike light is red as you head straight up the road you're already going straight on and want to keep going straight, it's red to allow cars to turn left :rolleyes:
That's why I leave the bike path and head into the straight ahead lane with the traffic up the hill.

dubrov

magicbastarder wrote:

what did the bike specific traffic light show?

I think the bike light was off altogether but am not completely sure. I'd like to think I would've noticed a red. I'll check next time but am hoping someone is familiar with it and knows.

Even if it was red, why design a bike lane like that? It's easy to miss a bike light when you are conditioned to look at the main light. It also means I won't use the bike lane again if it means I need to stop and yield every time I come up to that junction.

dubrov

Thanks. That makes more sense. I won't be using the bike lane again in that area again then

magicbastarder

yeah, it has the potential to be confusing, they're going to treat cyclists and motorists as completely different phases of traffic there.

the reason they did that was it's on a climb and many cyclists will be moving slowly, but they needed to cater for left turning motorists without requiring the cyclists to pull out to the outside of those motorists. so if you're comfortable doing so, take the road and use the lights the motorists would.

Breezer

I take the cycle lane because it’s a hill and I don’t fancy crossing two lanes of traffic on a hybrid. I might do it on something faster.

If it’s any consolation, the last few times I’ve been through, the bike light has gone green pretty quickly. Time was you’d sit for ages. I assume something has been done to the sensor.

dubrov

To be fair, it wasn't hard to stop. It would be just as easy for cars to yield to cyclists ahead of them at the junction though.

However, maybe it would lead to more accidents in reality.

magicbastarder

i used to go through that junction, outbound, before 7:30 am so it was quiet enough usually. i'd say outbound at evening rush hour would be different.

timeToLive

crazy design but if it's red then the cyclist should stop and wait for green

Mr. Cats

Even for cyclists turning left at that junction there is a traffic light that puts bike and car traffic turning left on different phases. I’ve often wondered if it’s because of the pinch point just after the turn or it’s to avoid a hook from traffic turning left that is taking the next left on corner into the street of houses.

In my experience the bike light is either red or green but never off/not lit.

fullstop

eeeee wrote: »

The bike light is red as you head straight up the road you're already going straight on and want to keep going straight, it's red to allow cars to turn left :rolleyes:
That's why I leave the bike path and head into the straight ahead lane with the traffic up the hill.

Or you could just wait your turn?!

I’m sure if a car came up the hill and the cycle light was green you have an issue if they decided to use the cycle lane green light to save some time.

TheW1zard

The Council build a cycle track for cyclists and give them their own green light and they dont use it and give out the other way is dangerous. Jesus

Mr. Cats

fullstop wrote: »

Or you could just wait your turn?!

I’m sure if a car came up the hill and the cycle light was green you have an issue if they decided to use the cycle lane green light to save some time.

The different lights apply to the traffic in the different lanes. So a car moving or stopping based on the cycle lane light would be incorrect. Similarly a bike using the main lane would be incorrect to obey cycle lane lights rather than normal lights.

It’s not compulsory for bike traffic to use cycle lanes. There’s many reasons for this and it’s a different topic to this thread.

CramCycle

fullstop wrote: »

Or you could just wait your turn?!

I’m sure if a car came up the hill and the cycle light was green you have an issue if they decided to use the cycle lane green light to save some time.

?!?
If you are in the main traffic lane, you are waiting your turn as you are going with the main lights.

magicbastarder

TheW1zard wrote: »

The Council build a cycle track for cyclists and give them their own green light and they dont use it and give out the other way is dangerous. Jesus

it's a common problem, junctions at the top of hills/slopes with left turning traffic dealing with cyclists going straight on. some cyclists are fit enough and experienced enough to take the 'traditional' lane, and junctions like the above now give slower or less experienced cyclists the option to take a more protected cycle lane.

another junction which is hard to engineer for cyclists would be uphill on the N11 past st john of gods, for right turning traffic. if you are cycling that way, you've two options - get to the lights at the junction, and turn into a pedestrian, or cut across the bus lane and two other lanes to access the right turn lane. many cyclists won't like doing that obviously, as it involves cutting across the N11 up a hill.

Jonesy101

hmm, theres a specific green turn left light. so if that was on and yours was red you were definitely in the wrong but I assume that you had a full green light, its pretty confusing for bikers and drivers so the only safe option is to yield and make sure its safe to proceed.

magicbastarder

yeah, you will get occasions where motorists see the green for cyclists and mistake it for themselves, and vice versa, so i suspect there may be comings together at that junction.

hesker

I can understand the design intent as explained above but bloody hell that is fraught with risk for a first time user. Is there any advance notice to cyclists approaching the junction

MangleBadger

I cycle that way when commuting. And as others have said I will usually try and take the lane if there is the option. The problem is the lane is off road so you are dropping off a kerb to join traffic. Besides this junction is actually quite a good cycle lane and one I would consistently use.
The other issue is the bike light is quite small and you are not looking for it. They're so few and far between you get used to looking at normal traffic lights. Not sure how many times I cycled past it before I noticed it.

magicbastarder

actually, i've possibly had more issues at the junction before that with left hooks, than at the junction in question.

i.e. people heading for seapoint avenue.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2977569,-6.1715657,3a,75y,140.19h,77.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEKy2FeLaOXuLNPcQFVVsBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

again, you're on the inside of left turning traffic.

Seaswimmer

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, i've possibly had more issues at the junction before that with left hooks, than at the junction in question.

i.e. people heading for seapoint avenue.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2977569,-6.1715657,3a,75y,140.19h,77.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEKy2FeLaOXuLNPcQFVVsBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

again, you're on the inside of left turning traffic.

At least this is pretty much non existant anymore with Seapoint Avenue one way. A left turn only brings you back to Blackrock now.
I commuted up Temple hill for years, before and after the cycle lane. There are 2 bike sensors on the aproach to the lights, one about half way up the hill and another near the lights themselves so the bike light is usually activated by the time you get to the lights. A conflict arises where a cyclist may want to take a left up Monkstown Road and a car may want to turn sharp left into Temple Park Cresent. Most people see the bike light as controlling bikes that want to go straight on (towards Deansgrange) and not for Monkstown Road.
However the amount of cars that turn left into Temple Park Cresent is very small so not a major issue.
A bigger issue for new, slow or elderly cyclists is the very short amount of time that the cycle light stays green for. Given that one is starting on a hill the bike light can be almost red when you get near the other side of the junction if you dont start off pretty sharply when it goes green.
Overall though a big improvement on Temple hill from the days when you had 2 lanes going into one lane at the top and you were constantly looking out for cars shooting left up MonKstown road from either lane if they could get away with it.

Edit: Cycled through there about an hour ago and noticed there is also a gantry now over the cycle lane with a set of cycle lights on it. Almost as big as a regular traffic light. Also the delay beween the cycle lght being orange and red is non existent. About 1 second so I will raise that with DLR traffic.

dave_o_brien

TheW1zard wrote: »

The Council build a cycle track for cyclists and give them their own green light and they dont use it and give out the other way is dangerous. Jesus

Another way to look at the point you have made is that the Council have built a track for cyclists which is so dysfunctional as to require a novel set of lighting signals that don't appear commonly enough that users might be familiar with them leading to an already imperfect junction becoming even MORE dangerous and leading to general disgruntlement from those for whom the junction was designed (people on bikes) and those impacted by the confused behaviour of them (people in cars).

It's a spectacularly sh*t design. But it's not the "cyclists" fault that it's a f**k up.

iffandonlyif

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Another way to look at the point you have made is that the Council have built a track for cyclists which is so dysfunctional as to require a novel set of lighting signals that don't appear commonly enough that users might be familiar with them leading to an already imperfect junction becoming even MORE dangerous and leading to general disgruntlement from those for whom the junction was designed (people on bikes) and those impacted by the confused behaviour of them (people in cars).

It's a spectacularly sh*t design. But it's not the "cyclists" fault that it's a f**k up.

Groan.

CramCycle

TheW1zard wrote: »

The Council build a cycle track for cyclists and give them their own green light and they dont use it and give out the other way is dangerous. Jesus

What?!? I use the road because its not dangerous for me, and I am comfortable with it and I actually don't impeded anyone. The only real danger here is for cyclists who use it and either a car goes through on a green bike light (happens enough on the few times I have been going through) or a cyclist misinterprets the green traffic light as applying to them as it would on many other junctions, less likely but not impossible.

Anyway, to answer the OPs question, if you are on the track, right of way is given by the lights for that lane, ie the bicycle light for you and the green turning arrow for the lane to your right

dave_o_brien

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Groan.

Y'know, I never thought of it like that. Thank you.

dubrov

Thanks all. I see now that I did not have right of way.

It's actually the first time I have come across a bike light that is red for cyclists while the main light is green.

TheW1zard

The OP was in the left turn lane, if all you Sean Kellys want to bomb up the hill thats fine, but you should be in the right lane to go straight.
Being in the left turn lane and trying to go straight is suicidal.
I do cycle it, and its never confused me.

C3PO

Cycle through that junction on the way home every day. If you are in the cycle-lane you need to wait for the green "bicycle" before proceeding straight. Personally, like suggested previously, I try to accelerate into the car lane and cycle with the motor traffic through the junction. But that's not always easy to do depending on traffic volume.
It's a really annoying junction but not confusing imho!

C3PO

TheW1zard wrote: »

The Council build a cycle track for cyclists and give them their own green light and they dont use it and give out the other way is dangerous. Jesus

Also worth mentioning that cars turning left routinely break the lights at that junction so the centre of the road is probably a safer place to be!
.... and cyclists are not obliged to use cycle-lanes!

CramCycle

TheW1zard wrote: »

The OP was in the left turn lane, if all you Sean Kellys want to bomb up the hill thats fine, but you should be in the right lane to go straight.
Being in the left turn lane and trying to go straight is suicidal.
I do cycle it, and its never confused me.

Did you even look at the link or know the junction? The straight ahead cycle lane, where the cyclist was is to the left of the left turn lane, this is where the OP clearly stated they were. He just had a query over the right of way. That has been answered but just to clarify, no one has suggested what you have suggested, the options suggested were in the straight ahead bike lane or in the straight ahead general traffic lane.

fullstop

CramCycle wrote: »

?!?
If you are in the main traffic lane, you are waiting your turn as you are going with the main lights.

But there is a dedicated cycle lane and traffic lights. When there’s no cycling infrastructure cyclists will complain, but when there is the cyclists want to ignore it if it doesn’t suit them. You see things like this all the time on junctions in the likes of The Netherlands, which is held up as the gold standard for cyclists. Cycle light is green, motorist waits. Cycle light is red, cyclist waits. It’s pretty simple.

CramCycle

The last few times I have went through that junction driving, every car in front of me broke the red to turn left so forgive my lack of faith. I am not complaining either way, I am lucky that I do not need it but I appreciate that some do. I don't hold up other traffic and I wasn't complaining, just explaining that I don't and won't use it for now. There maybe a day I have to use it and I appreciate the option.

The only thing I would change is possibly a red light camera which would quickly solve the issue and make it safer for all. Neither cyclists or motorists should run the red there, I don't, so I am not sure why you think I am complaining.

CramCycle

Also cyclists are not a homogeneous group by the way, the same way some motorists applaud some road changes and others despise them, cyclists are no different. We are not all the same, even though we are all.equal.

fullstop

CramCycle wrote: »

The last few times I have went through that junction driving, every car in front of me broke the red to turn left so forgive my lack of faith. I am not complaining either way, I am lucky that I do not need it but I appreciate that some do. I don't hold up other traffic and I wasn't complaining, just explaining that I don't and won't use it for now. There maybe a day I have to use it and I appreciate the option.

The only thing I would change is possibly a red light camera which would quickly solve the issue and make it safer for all. Neither cyclists or motorists should run the red there, I don't, so I am not sure why you think I am complaining.

Red light cameras FTW. Badly, badly needed in Dublin.

fixXxer

CramCycle wrote: »

The last few times I have went through that junction driving, every car in front of me broke the red to turn left so forgive my lack of faith. I am not complaining either way, I am lucky that I do not need it but I appreciate that some do. I don't hold up other traffic and I wasn't complaining, just explaining that I don't and won't use it for now. There maybe a day I have to use it and I appreciate the option.

The only thing I would change is possibly a red light camera which would quickly solve the issue and make it safer for all. Neither cyclists or motorists should run the red there, I don't, so I am not sure why you think I am complaining.

I cycle this way every day and this is definitely the biggest problem. The orange light is the go faster light and the red is only red after 10 seconds. It's one of those junctions where is safer if it clear to go through, which is crazy in itself. There is a segregated cycle lane all the way from Blackrock which is why the junction is designed that way, but there's nothing in there to dissuade the amber gamblers.

dreddie

OK. So I commute through that junction everyday on my way to Bray, outbound in the morning. I obey every other traffic light on my commute except that one. There, I use the cycle lane and check over my right shoulder to make sure there is no traffic coming and then proceed. If there is traffic I wait until it clears (presuming they have a green light and there is a red for cyclists).

A few years ago, around New Year, there was a Garda stationed there every morning for a few weeks. I waited for a green cycling light, and waited, and waited, and waited!! After a few mornings of this he told me to proceed if there was no traffic coming. I took this as an acknowledgement that the signalling in this junction is dysfunctional but cars do have right of way when cycling light is red.

Breezer

dreddie wrote: »

OK. So I commute through that junction everyday on my way to Bray, outbound in the morning. I obey every other traffic light on my commute except that one. There, I use the cycle lane and check over my right shoulder to make sure there is no traffic coming and then proceed. If there is traffic I wait until it clears (presuming they have a green light and there is a red for cyclists).

A few years ago, around New Year, there was a Garda stationed there every morning for a few weeks. I waited for a green cycling light, and waited, and waited, and waited!! After a few mornings of this he told me to proceed if there was no traffic coming. I took this as an acknowledgement that the signalling in this junction is dysfunctional but cars do have right of way when cycling light is red.

That was my experience too, but it seems to be fixed of late. I haven’t had the pleasure of being left hooked through a red here yet, but will watch out for it.