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Tenancy Ending

  • 14-04-2021 4:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    I'll keep this brief hopefully

    - Landlord mentioned to us in January they'd be looking to sell the house we're living in but had to wait until April for notice (6 months) because of 5km but was telling us out of courtesy that were the plans
    - Apparently the eviction freeze has been extended until July now
    - From a personal pov, I would like to move out Sept/Oct to ramp up savings for buying next year. However as tenancy would (now) be ending shortly after it would be near impossible to fill the room. Ideally I don't want to leave the other guys in the house foot the cost by paying additional rent but ultimately I care about myself more than them
    - The situation is 4 of us signed a 12 month lease in Jan 2019. 2 of the 4 remain and the other guy has been in the house since 2015 or maybe before
    - The lease stated the total monthly rent for the house rather than per person
    - I asked previously about a new lease when tenants changed but mgmt co said no need
    - when the two other guys joined the house, we sorted out finding replacement tenants, took deposits from them and gave the guys leaving back their deposits - No deposits changed hands through mgmt co
    - previously the mgmt co wanted one person to collect rent and pay them in one lump sum but that was a pain so I changed that last year to everyone paying mgmt co directly themselves

    I wouldn't be offey with the rules around is someone a tenant or a licensee or whatever. Ultimately, if I move out in Sept or Oct:

    1. Am I entitled to do that, once I give appropriate notice?
    2. Who's responsible for finding a replacement tenant for the remaining period?
    3. If a replacement is not found, who is responsible for the "shortfall" in rent?

    I would like to move out Sept/Oct but don't want my deposit or what anyone else in the house is currently paying effected.

    Thanks


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    I rechecked the lease and it actually says started 21 August 2018 and no term - says Part 4 as the term so I think that's 4 years?

    No specifics re notice periods for either party other than in line with RTB regulations


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ Hontou


    Talk to your landlord. They want to sell and may be happy as each person leaves as it is minimising risks of overholding. You have nothing to lose in putting your case to the landlord.


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    Already had that conversation and they said they would expect the full rent to be paid even if there's 1 person remaining in the house.

    What I'm looking to see is if I can give my notice period (56 days I think) and the other guys not be responsible for the rent shortfall and the landlord/mgmt co would be the ones responsible for filling the room in the house to make up the rent shortfall. I assume the two guys who are not on the lease that are here are licensees and not tenants so can't get caught for it


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010


    Already had that conversation and they said they would expect the full rent to be paid even if there's 1 person remaining in the house.

    What I'm looking to see is if I can give my notice period (56 days I think) and the other guys not be responsible for the rent shortfall and the landlord/mgmt co would be the ones responsible for filling the room in the house to make up the rent shortfall. I assume the two guys who are not on the lease that are here are licensees and not tenants so can't get caught for it

    You stated the total rent is due, rather than per person, this means you don’t each have separate rental agreements. You need to check your lease, if it says you all are joint and severely liable for the rent, then which ever tenant is still in the property is responsible for the rent in full. It is not the owners responsibility to find a tenant to replace you.

    On a separate note, if the tenants are likely to receive notice, now is probably the best time in years to be looking for rental accommodation, if the tenants wait until Sept/Oct, they will be in the mix with students, workers returning to offices etc

    And, restriction on notices has been lifted, unless the tenants have been affected by pandemic/on pandemic payments, I think from next Wednesday, the LL can serve termination notice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭✭ Apoapsis Rex


    You are lucky your landlord doesn't realise that he could have given notice in January, and the notice can be counted down, but you don't have to leave until after the restrictions deadline plus 10 days.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You stated the total rent is due, rather than per person, this means you don’t each have separate rental agreements. You need to check your lease, if it says you all are joint and severely liable for the rent, then which ever tenant is still in the property is responsible for the rent in full. It is not the owners responsibility to find a tenant to replace you.
    Just had a look and it does.

    “The tenant includes the successors in title. Whenever there is more than one tenant, each and every covenant and obligation can be enforced against all the tenants and against each individually”.

    So that settles that anyway and seems to indicate the guys that aren’t on the lease are tenants and not licensees.

    What would the situation regarding getting back my deposit be? “When the tenancy ends, to repay the security deposit to the tenant without interest, after all sums due to the landlord (if any) ...have been deducted “ Given a total deposit was paid, am I entitled to my portion of the deposit back if I serve my notice and my tenancy ends?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010


    Just had a look and it does.

    “The tenant includes the successors in title. Whenever there is more than one tenant, each and every covenant and obligation can be enforced against all the tenants and against each individually”.

    So that settles that anyway and seems to indicate the guys that aren’t on the lease are tenants and not licensees.

    What would the situation regarding getting back my deposit be? “When the tenancy ends, to repay the security deposit to the tenant without interest, after all sums due to the landlord (if any) ...have been deducted “ Given a total deposit was paid, am I entitled to my portion of the deposit back if I serve my notice and my tenancy ends?

    Is your tenancy separate from the others? If you find someone to replace you, you get your deposit from him/her, apart from that, you may have to wait for the tenancy to end (everyone moves out) to get your deposit back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ Hontou


    Work really hard on getting someone else. Have you advertised for a replacement? Put it up on Daft under house share. There is someone on Boards looking for a place for 3 nights a week for a few months.

    Alternatively, have you pushed for the other tenants to move out sooner? Try that. Are you all affected financially by Covid? If not the notice has not moved to July. It starts now, and you can be all out together in October or before with consensus. You have been given notice for a last possible date to be out, but you can move out before that as a group. I still think if the landlord wants to sell, the sooner you are all out the better. I'm a landlord whose tenants notice was extended because of Covid to July. I want to sell. If they said they were moving out tomorrow I'd be thrilled.....and they would get their full deposit back. (Assuming the place is reasonably ok).


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    @Dav010 tenancy is not separate so what you're saying seems to be accurate unfortunately
    Hontou wrote: »
    Work really hard on getting someone else. Have you advertised for a replacement? Put it up on Daft under house share. There is someone on Boards looking for a place for 3 nights a week for a few months.

    Alternatively, have you pushed for the other tenants to move out sooner? Try that. Are you all affected financially by Covid? If not the notice has not moved to July. It starts now, and you can be all out together in October or before with consensus. You have been given notice for a last possible date to be out, but you can move out before that as a group. I still think if the landlord wants to sell, the sooner you are all out the better. I'm a landlord whose tenants notice was extended because of Covid to July. I want to sell. If they said they were moving out tomorrow I'd be thrilled.....and they would get their full deposit back. (Assuming the place is reasonably ok).
    To be honest we've gone through the process of finding replacement tenants 3 times in the past 12 months and would like to avoid that again, especially when it's going to be short term. Trying to come to an agreed consensus between 3 of us (one guy moved in Feb so without meaning to sound blasé don't care too much about him) is probably the best option. The lads are sound anyway

    I know one of the guys is happy to move out relatively soon and the landlord would like to sell asap. She did mention not wanting the house vacant over Christmas though so the timing seems to matter on their end. We didn't actually receive the notice in Jan, just notice we would be receiving the notice ha, but seems like the landlord was incorrectly advised then also because they thought they couldn't even issue it.
    I'll have a chat with the lads anyway and see what they're happy with. All of us giving notice together would work if they are happy to. I'll also mention to the landlord that she seems to have been told information that's not correct because my understanding was also that only rent freezes were extended until July. Not sure if any of the guys could say impacted by covid. We'd all have the option thankfully of being able to move back in with families so wouldn't be homeless

    Thanks for the helpful responses guys.

    On a separate/relates note, one of the guys has gone AWOL past few weeks. Still paid bills but I'm worried he won't pay his share of the rent that's due this week. What happens in that case? Are we liable to cover his part of the rent? I suppose the security deposit could go against in that case and we'd just have to find a new tenant within 30 days to avoid having the cover the rent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ Hontou


    On a separate/relates note, one of the guys has gone AWOL past few weeks. Still paid bills but I'm worried he won't pay his share of the rent that's due this week. What happens in that case? Are we liable to cover his part of the rent? I suppose the security deposit could go against in that case and we'd just have to find a new tenant within 30 days to avoid having the cover the rent?[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, the rest of you will have to pay the rent, but he then owes you.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭ Curious1002


    If one guy moved in in Feb this year and some moved in in 2015 - how much notice would all the lads get? If the "youngest" lad gets separately 30 days notice and the others e.g. 180 days, the remaining guys will have to fork out some cash and cover the rent for the youngest one who moved out way before them. This doesn't sound right so i think the entire house will get one and the same notice period in accordance with the guys who signed up the lease in 2015, so 180 days.

    Thats the danger of sharing accommodation - when the house gets the notice - you all have to synchronise the move together or to mitigate your individual losses by organising a short term replacement until the notice expires.
    If everyone moves out a month or two before the notice of termination says, there is no chance for the landlord to get the last 1-2 months rent. If the agent or a landlord opens the dispute that they didnt get the last rent the RTB Adjudicator will laugh at the landlord/agent face. Both sides have to mitigate their losses but a phrase "reasonable efforts" plays a big role in here. There is a very slim chance the a tenant could secure a new place on the last day of the notice of termination. So RTB gives a fair treatment to both sides if they show that a tenant tried to find a replacement but failed and that they would end up on the street with no place if they waited until the end of the notice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭ Baby01032012


    It’s one joint tenancy. It doesn’t matter that 2 left and 2 replaced. Once one of the original signatories is still there the original lease is still valid. So all will be given notice jointly. If one leaves now the remainder will be liable for that guys rent ie that is what jointly and severely liable means. You all will need to pay rent until the notice ends or ye give notice yourselves or you come to an agreement with the landlord. The agency was correct in stating once the original 12 month lease had ended there was no need for a written lease as the terms continue along with Part Iv which is 6 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ MacDanger


    @Dav010 tenancy is not separate so what you're saying seems to be accurate unfortunately


    To be honest we've gone through the process of finding replacement tenants 3 times in the past 12 months and would like to avoid that again, especially when it's going to be short term. Trying to come to an agreed consensus between 3 of us (one guy moved in Feb so without meaning to sound blasé don't care too much about him) is probably the best option. The lads are sound anyway

    I know one of the guys is happy to move out relatively soon and the landlord would like to sell asap. She did mention not wanting the house vacant over Christmas though so the timing seems to matter on their end. We didn't actually receive the notice in Jan, just notice we would be receiving the notice ha, but seems like the landlord was incorrectly advised then also because they thought they couldn't even issue it.
    I'll have a chat with the lads anyway and see what they're happy with. All of us giving notice together would work if they are happy to. I'll also mention to the landlord that she seems to have been told information that's not correct because my understanding was also that only rent freezes were extended until July. Not sure if any of the guys could say impacted by covid. We'd all have the option thankfully of being able to move back in with families so wouldn't be homeless

    Thanks for the helpful responses guys.

    On a separate/relates note, one of the guys has gone AWOL past few weeks. Still paid bills but I'm worried he won't pay his share of the rent that's due this week. What happens in that case? Are we liable to cover his part of the rent? I suppose the security deposit could go against in that case and we'd just have to find a new tenant within 30 days to avoid having the cover the rent?

    Since the LL has already given you notice, if you can all agree on a single moving out date, I think (open to correction on this though) that you can move out on that date and get your deposit back (assuming everything else is in order). There was a thread about this here recently enough (had a look but can't find it) and apparently the standard eviction notice says to vacate the property "on or before" the date specified so basically you don't have to pay up until the end of the lease period because the LL has initiated the termination of the lease


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    MacDanger wrote: »
    Since the LL has already given you notice, if you can all agree on a single moving out date, I think (open to correction on this though) that you can move out on that date and get your deposit back (assuming everything else is in order). There was a thread about this here recently enough (had a look but can't find it) and apparently the standard eviction notice says to vacate the property "on or before" the date specified so basically you don't have to pay up until the end of the lease period because the LL has initiated the termination of the lease

    From what I read, the landlord has only given notice of intention to give notice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,534 ✭✭✭✭ the_syco


    I know one of the guys is happy to move out relatively soon and the landlord would like to sell asap. She did mention not wanting the house vacant over Christmas though so the timing seems to matter on their end.
    To be fair, xmas is a long time away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    Just received notice from the letting agency and it refers to us being able to give short notice. How long is this - can't find anywhere online that says how long this is. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭ meijin


    Just received notice from the letting agency and it refers to us being able to give short notice. How long is this - can't find anywhere online that says how long this is. Thanks.

    so do you have an official termination notice now? it would say "on or before [date]", which means that you can leave any time after receiving the notice, even the next day if you want

    once they give you notice, there is no special permission required for you to give "short notice"


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭ Dav010


    meijin wrote: »
    so do you have an official termination notice now? it would say "on or before [date]", which means that you can leave any time after receiving the notice, even the next day if you want

    once they give you notice, there is no special permission required for you to give "short notice"

    But if all do not leave the next day, the person left has to pay the rent in full while the tenancy continues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    Thanks
    Dav010 wrote: »
    But if all do not leave the next day, the person left has to pay the rent in full while the tenancy continues.
    Yeah, that is what I'm concerned about - if the other guys just decide to up and leave


  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    Update on this situation :

    - So tosspot that moved in start of Feb left weekend before last on a day notice. Trying to find a replacement til 30 Nov but obviously hard to fill a short term let

    - he had paid his rent to cover Sept so obviously not getting that back unless we get someone in before end of sept

    - other lads said now they want to end the tenancy end of Oct. Us 3 pay our rent and use your mans deposit to cover the other part. Then we all get our deposit back

    - power in numbers and all that re decisions but is what is proposed legal? As stated above he's legally a tenant rather than a licensee and we are all equally liable for rent as per lease


    Any comments/thoughts etc welcome. From a legal perspective, don't want anyone taking moral high ground, I'm not happy with the plan of action myself.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    Do you have his deposit or are you going to leave the landlord short of that amount of money?

    If you are going to leave the LL short, IMO you should all go at the end of Sept.



  • Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ DmanDmythDledge


    No we are using his deposit to cover the balance of the rent. LL won't be short.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    Do you have the deposit or the landlord? Use of the deposit to pay rent is not allowed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭ Emma2019


    It happens all the time though. If a landlord is happy to have less than a month's rent in their account as a deposit it's fine. It's not paying your last months rent and telling the LL to use the deposit without their agreement is not allowed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭ Claw Hammer


    Whatever about it happening all the time, it is not for the tenant to say that the landlord will not be out of pocket.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭ Emma2019


    Again, if the LL agreed, it is not an issue.



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