Return to office dilemma, no longer in Dublin

Greenlights16

Have any employees of large dublin companies heard much about return to office yet?

working for my current company for about a year. Very happy in job, as happy as any one i've ever had. However, I've been working remotely for that full year and only gotten into the dublin office less than 10 times to meet my boss and a few colleagues.

circumstances have changed and I will be moving back to NI in the next month.

I have not told my Dublin employer yet as we have all been working remotely from our homes in Dublin, and there is no word of returning to the dublin office a few days per week until september at earliest, so I have seen no need to. Plus I've been getting on very well and due for a pay rise next month after a good performance review.

My boss is sound, but I have not said a thing to him. I am putting it on the backburner and working away until an issue arises, hopefully late summer at earliest, but you just never know. I am not sure what advantage bringing it up now has, maybe it lets him know early, as we have not returned to office yet, rather than springing it on them when we're given a months notice.

The commute will be 2.5-3hrs each way per day to Dublin. I have said in my head, the maximum I am willing to do is 2 days per week in the dublin office. I will drive down early on say a tues, stay over somewhere cheap on a tues night out of my own pocket, and drive up home wed evening. Anything more than that and it would not be worth it, wasting upwards of 5 hours per day commuting. I do think they might be ok with it, but i am not sure.

I am a good employee and have caused no bother, work well and respected by my bosses and colleagues thus far.

Vestiapx

Depends what you do really

Augme

The biggest problem is you are now living in another country. That will cause potential tax/legislative issues for your organisation, especially now post-Brexit. Remote working in the Republic would be a much easier sell. Far more difficult when doing remote up north.

Vestiapx

Augme wrote: »

The biggest problem is you are now living in another country. That will cause potential tax/legislative issues for your organisation, especially now post-Brexit. Remote working in the Republic would be a much easier sell. Far more difficult when doing remote up north.

Ni is actually not that bad, I know loads of people that live in the north and work in the south.

Greenlights16

Yep, I agree tax is one of the issues. But that’s not the discussion I was after here I suppose, or I would have put it in the taxation forum.

It’s more around how to approach the issue. Should I say something now, or hold off and say nothing. Once it’s out it could be too late and I may be regretting saying anything, that’s what my gut tells me. The longer I am with them and creating a good impression, the more leverage I’ll have ? Even if that is only another few months into this year

thefa

Knew a couple of people crossing the border everyday to come work in the south when I worked in a border county. Presume they were using the double taxation agreement. They were crossing the border for work but I’m not sure how relevant that is. Maybe the website below can give some guidance re tax.

https://borderpeople.info/a-z/taxation.html


Could depend on the size of the company and some of its policies which could restrict them to only having employees resident in Ireland. Does your contract specify anything and is it something that could get you dismissed?


In terms of your prospects at the company, hiding the fact you’re living abroad won’t stand to you if discovered. I don’t think an additional few months is going to materially increase your leverage either and, despite all the WFH, you may not have the bargaining power to work only 2 days a week in the office in the future unless it fits into the company’s plans.

I would be tempted to give the manager a call and explain your circumstances have changed and you think you may have to go back to NI for at least the short term and gauge his response. Realise that will alert him to the possibility of you doing it anyway if they cannot accommodate but I’m not sure the alternative is better beyond possibly buying you a few more months.

Greenlights16

Very good point . I’d rather meet him face to face I think (my boss) when telling him

I suppose telling him now and saying I’ll have to go back to NI temporarily , with the intention to come back to Ireland at a later date, gives him time to think about. Because at present no one is in the Dublin office, I’m doing a good job remotely, so the chances of me being sacked immediately are probably fairly low? (I hope)

Greenlights16

Vestiapx wrote: »

Depends what you do really

I provide construction cost advice to major clients on their projects in Europe, I’m never actually on the projects in Europe.

I’m fully aware that you need to meet people face to face and it’s healthy so that’s why I’m saying I’d be more than happy to give 2 days per week to it. Even though I’m doing the job 100% effectively at present remotely.

jmlad2020

They may or may not agree to 2 days. Slightly risky. As you applied to work in Dublin originally this will be treated the case after Covid I'd think. Might come back to bite you if Covid rapidly ends this year.

Personally I'd tell them.

riffmongous

Greenlights16 wrote: »

I provide construction cost advice to major clients on their projects in Europe, I’m never actually on the projects in Europe.

I’m fully aware that you need to meet people face to face and it’s healthy so that’s why I’m saying I’d be more than happy to give 2 days per week to it. Even though I’m doing the job 100% effectively at present remotely.

Be open about it in that case I'd say, say you are willing to do 2 days in the office. That way they will be able to plan around it while if you drop it later after they have maybe decided you as newest employee (for example) need to be in the office 5 days a week it will kick up a stink

Greenlights16

Fair points. Was wishful thinking of me just putting it off to late summer or whenever it is! Will have to get onto the boss this week.

I don’t think he will be too concerned about the tax residency side of things if he is ok with it, as there is another lad on my team from Spain originally, and with covid he goes back to Spain for 1/2 weeks per month on the boat to his parents and works from there.

I always had intended to tell them I’m in donegal but better to be truthful and just say it’s NI I suppose. No doubt in later years if it all goes well HMRC will come knocking some day saying why haven’t I filled out tax returns

listermint

You are putting yourself and the company at risk for tax avoidance. I'd imagine you are already over the number of days that's available for working outside the state. Your obligation is to inform the employer based on that alone. Commute times and anything else is secondary. Your tax status and residency is at question.

Greenlights16

I haven’t actually moved yet, but will be now in next few weeks / month. Still in Dublin . But yes, get what you are saying

listermint

Greenlights16 wrote: »

I haven’t actually moved yet, but will be now in next few weeks / month. Still in Dublin . But yes, get what you are saying

Note the spanish lad is probably under the number of days outside the state so that probably works well for him.

stayback

I would also throw in Brexit .. Spain is within the EU so we would have some common tax policies with them but with Brexit I’m not so sure .. NI is technically outside the EU but I’m not 100% sure about the tax implications

HildaOgdenx

At a guess, some employers will be happy enough to continue with a mix of wfh and in the office, where it has been working well for all concerned.

I know of a company that has downsized on office space since this began. So, it may not be a case of full return to office for all. No harm in sounding out the issue, with your manager, when the opportunity presents itself.

(That's leaving aside the tax issue, in your situation, because that's not something I am familiar with, and others have advised on it).

Humour Me

Another thing to consider is if you will be able to work the 2 days in the office consecutively. Our office won’t be opening until September at least and my head of department is happy to allow flexibility when the office reopens. However he has also said that at least one day a week he wants everyone in the department in on the same day to allow for meetings, cross training etc.

We will also be expected to attend client meetings in the office if the client doesn’t want to hold them virtually, management won’t be facilitating some of the team being in person and some dialling in if the client requested an on-site meeting.

I would ask if there have been any discussions about returning to the office and wfh in the future, and mention you may have to move temporarily, and you want to plan ahead.

sebdavis

No point asking on a forum, what is in your contract?
Does it allow for home working? if so how many days are you expected to be in the office

You are a year into a job, I would expect people could be 5, 10 years working for the company. Maybe they all want to work from home. How do you think they will feel is suddenly you decide you are only arriving into the office 2 days a week and the rest of them have to go in 4-5?

Unless you have the ability in your contract, or the company has a policy of working from home the majority of time you are in trouble. It's normally is an issue because if you do it then everyone else will. Then as mentioned above nobody is in the office and its a nightmare from training purposes etc

Best to ask the company, loads of them are changing their policies. Hiding and saying nothing will just cause conflict and potentially you could lose job for not showing up to work

whomitconcerns

I live in UK and came home recently. Had a good chat with my employer about it. 90 days out of 180 days rolling is the max outside of the UK or outside the EU in your case, before there are tax avoidance issues, so your boss not minding is not as simple as that. Both you and he could have issues. And that's before you look at health insurance or anything else that's residency based.

JPup

I reckon you should informally flag it to your boss next time you are speaking and mention it as something you were mulling over. Don’t make it a deal breaker yet. Just get the idea out there initially.

Senior management will be having conversations at all office based companies over the next few months about how to accommodate working from home in the future so it would be useful to get your idea in now so it can be considered during those discussions.

I reckon you’ll be far from alone in looking to move further away from the office though and I think most companies will be open to accommodating people in similar situations.

sebdavis

JPup wrote: »

I reckon you should informally flag it to your boss next time you are speaking and mention it as something you were mulling over. Don’t make it a deal breaker yet. Just get the idea out there initially.

Senior management will be having conversations at all office based companies over the next few months about how to accommodate working from home in the future so it would be useful to get your idea in now so it can be considered during those discussions.

I reckon you’ll be far from alone in looking to move further away from the office though and I think most companies will be open to accommodating people in similar situations.

Yes they will be accommodating and I think everyone knows that but it needs to be a fair policy for everyone. It should not be a case of some lad decides he wants to work from home 75% of the time while the rest of the office is sitting in traffic all day.
That would be a nightmare for management and HR with complaints all over the place.

I do like the "my boss is sound" with zero consideration for the boss or other people working in the company

haskellgeek

I did the UK to Dublin one my understanding and my employers was it was a year until you were deemed an overseas worker (I am now this). But for OP's one I don't see an issue. Does your company have a Uk office? If so can they transfer you there while you still really work for the Dublin one?

sebdavis

haskellgeek wrote: »

I did the UK to Dublin one my understanding and my employers was it was a year until you were deemed an overseas worker (I am now this). But for OP's one I don't see an issue. Does your company have a Uk office? If so can they transfer you there while you still really work for the Dublin one?

This has complications depending on the company because who does the head count sit with? Also you will find from a HR point of view they would need a manager in Ireland and one outside. Of course this all depends on company and the contract as I mentioned before

One huge issue is the contract is an Irish contract and subject to Irish law which is completely different to UK employee rights.....

Again asking on a forum is not the correct practise, they need to approach their manager ASAP and make them aware of this.

Del2005

haskellgeek wrote: »

I did the UK to Dublin one my understanding and my employers was it was a year until you were deemed an overseas worker (I am now this). But for OP's one I don't see an issue. Does your company have a Uk office? If so can they transfer you there while you still really work for the Dublin one?

Having a UK office might not make any difference if they can't transfer the data to it. The OP is working for EU companies in an EU country, moving to a 3rd country could have issues with data transfer laws and export controls. In my company we can't just send data to other sites.

Jim2007

Augme wrote: »

The biggest problem is you are now living in another country. That will cause potential tax/legislative issues for your organisation, especially now post-Brexit. Remote working in the Republic would be a much easier sell. Far more difficult when doing remote up north.

It is not just the taxes, the fact that the employee is outside the jurisdiction means that there is practically nothing that the employer can do legally should the employee go rogue - sell the data, steal the clients, disclose confidential know how etc....


The legal advisors are usually against it.

Greenlights16

sebdavis wrote: »

No point asking on a forum, what is in your contract?
Does it allow for home working? if so how many days are you expected to be in the office

You are a year into a job, I would expect people could be 5, 10 years working for the company. Maybe they all want to work from home. How do you think they will feel is suddenly you decide you are only arriving into the office 2 days a week and the rest of them have to go in 4-5?

Unless you have the ability in your contract, or the company has a policy of working from home the majority of time you are in trouble. It's normally is an issue because if you do it then everyone else will. Then as mentioned above nobody is in the office and its a nightmare from training purposes etc

Best to ask the company, loads of them are changing their policies. Hiding and saying nothing will just cause conflict and potentially you could lose job for not showing up to work

Sorry about that Seb, I’ll delete my boards account now

Greenlights16

sebdavis wrote: »

Yes they will be accommodating and I think everyone knows that but it needs to be a fair policy for everyone. It should not be a case of some lad decides he wants to work from home 75% of the time while the rest of the office is sitting in traffic all day.
That would be a nightmare for management and HR with complaints all over the place.

I do like the "my boss is sound" with zero consideration for the boss or other people working in the company

In our company people who live in Dublin city, D4 and surrounding areas are in the office most days and have never stopped.

Some of the head men have moved back to Galway, cork, donegal, other ends of the country.

The people you mention sitting in traffic every day won’t the Dublin or greater Leinster region natives. They use public transport

Greenlights16

haskellgeek wrote: »

I did the UK to Dublin one my understanding and my employers was it was a year until you were deemed an overseas worker (I am now this). But for OP's one I don't see an issue. Does your company have a Uk office? If so can they transfer you there while you still really work for the Dublin one?

Yeah London, Manchester office and maybe more . Presence in NI also on public contracts but no office as such

Greenlights16

sebdavis wrote: »

This has complications depending on the company because who does the head count sit with? Also you will find from a HR point of view they would need a manager in Ireland and one outside. Of course this all depends on company and the contract as I mentioned before

One huge issue is the contract is an Irish contract and subject to Irish law which is completely different to UK employee rights.....

Again asking on a forum is not the correct practise, they need to approach their manager ASAP and make them aware of this.

Calm the jets Seb, god of almighty you’d swear you were my Hr manager the way you’re going on!!! it’s only a discussion. I haven’t even left ireland yet. I will talk to the manager and I’ll directly DM you if that lowers your blood pressure when you find out

Jim2007

sebdavis wrote: »

Again asking on a forum is not the correct practise, they need to approach their manager ASAP and make them aware of this.

Oh for heavens sake of course it makes since to ask on a forum it's the only way to find out what others are doing and what approaches they are taking before sitting down to discuss it with his employer.


You may feel that going around half informed of what is going on around you is the way to go, but most don't.

OMM 0000

Greenlights16 wrote: »

It’s more around how to approach the issue. Should I say something now, or hold off and say nothing. Once it’s out it could be too late and I may be regretting saying anything, that’s what my gut tells me. The longer I am with them and creating a good impression, the more leverage I’ll have ? Even if that is only another few months into this year

I'm trying to visualise this if it happened to me (I am the manager in the story).

OK, so you've decided not to say anything. I then discover in August when I ask you to come back in full-time that you've moved to NI. My reaction would be WTF and I would be thinking hang on he just moved countries and never told us?

I would be a bit annoyed by I would try to make it work. If you can't come back to the office you would need to go.

Now let me imagine if you told me about it this evening.

OK, I would be thinking its fair enough. But I would also be thinking you might be disposable, as you realistically can't work properly for the company anymore. I would assume your time at the company is limited. Assumption is I will need you back in the office. However if we're moving to a work from home situation then I wouldn't give a ****.

So I think what you should try to do is ask what is the plan for people returning to the office. Basically find out what the plan is, and if it won't work for you, tell your manager. Don't wait until the last moment.

ec18

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm trying to visualise this if it happened to me (I am the manager in the story).

OK, so you've decided not to say anything. I then discover in August when I ask you to come back in full-time that you've moved to NI. My reaction would be WTF and I would be thinking hang on he just moved countries and never told us?

I would be a bit annoyed by I would try to make it work. If you can't come back to the office you would need to go.

Now let me imagine if you told me about it this evening.

OK, I would be thinking its fair enough. But I would also be thinking you might be disposable, as you realistically can't work properly for the company anymore. I would assume your time at the company is limited. Assumption is I will need you back in the office. However if we're moving to a work from home situation then I wouldn't give a ****.

So I think what you should try to do is ask what is the plan for people returning to the office. Basically find out what the plan is, and if it won't work for you, tell your manager. Don't wait until the last moment.

Unless the company has signalled to you that WfH is going to be a thing then you'll need to let him know as soon as possible. When you move you'll have to update your address with HR so it would be better for your boss to find out from you rather than someone emailing him going hey did you know he left the country.

As someone mentioned tax is a problem as you'll probably have to pay something to HMRC and revenue. As well as you will potentially be working under different worker legislation in NI than there is in the EU.

Personally I know my company are ok with you moving around the republic and commuting a day or two but outside the jurisdiction is a no no

witchgirl26

I know lots of people have mentioned the tax element but there is also other issues with working (even if working from home) in another jurisdiction in terms of legalities and duty of care. I travel to NI & the UK for work quite a bit in normal times and we had to work out how many days of the year I'm working outside of Ireland to ensure I was under the limit (can't remember the exact amount).

Also I'd look into the company's work from home policy for normal times. Most companies I know want you in the office for at least 3 days a week as if you are majority working from home, they are under an obligation to set you up at home with a proper office set up (desk, monitor etc) and will often not provide a desk in work for you.

bucketybuck

From the employee side of things:

The main question seems to be if they will make everybody come back into the office at some stage or not? If indications were that they would be ok with a long term work from home arrangement then I would talk to them now and sort something out.

If you thought that they did intend to force everybody back into the office then there is no benefit to saying anything now, all it does is give them time to make contingency plans. You would be better off doing your work and saying nothing until the point comes where they say "right folks, in you come". Then you ring the boss and tell him that circumstances have changed and that coming in every day no longer suits for you, that you are thinking of moving to NI and can you work something out. They are bound to be expecting some requests like that but are more likely to accommodate you when they don't have months to find a replacement. Of course, you would need to be prepared to be told that it is either come in or **** off.

ec18

bucketybuck wrote: »

If you thought that they did intend to force everybody back into the office then there is no benefit to saying anything now, all it does is give them time to make contingency plans. You would be better off doing your work and saying nothing until the point comes where they say "right folks, in you come". Then you ring the boss and tell him that circumstances have changed and that coming in every day no longer suits for you, that you are thinking of moving to NI and can you work something out. They are bound to be expecting some requests like that but are more likely to accommodate you when they don't have months to find a replacement. Of course, you would need to be prepared to be told that it is either come in or **** off.

If i understood the OP if that convo happens he will already have moved to NI by the time they say in you come?

bucketybuck

ec18 wrote: »

If i understood the OP if that convo happens he will already have moved to NI by the time they say in you come?

Yes. I'm saying to keep that to himself until it suits him best.

Not forever, I know there are tax implications, but he is just talking a few months, and if they are going "strictly back in the office now" then it is just a side issue anyway.

ec18

for him though it's likely to destroy any good will he may have with his manager if it only comes out then rather than telling them now during a chat.

I did similar recently, where I'm thinking of leaving Dublin and had a quiet word with my manager around what sort of options might be open for remote working when normality returns.

OMM 0000

When your manager thinks you're sneaky or can't be trusted, your chance of getting promoted drops considerably.

GreeBo

Greenlights16 wrote: »

Yep, I agree tax is one of the issues. But that’s not the discussion I was after here I suppose, or I would have put it in the taxation forum.

Its not *your* taxation issue that will be the problem, by you living and working in another country you make your employer have a permanent establishment and make them liable for corporation tax in the UK.

Failing to disclose this could lead to termination, I know of numerous people who had to leave and try to be hired as contractors back to the same company.

https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/10/covid-19-work-anywhere-together.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/why-multinationals-are-calling-employees-back-to-ireland-1.4379472

bucketybuck

ec18 wrote: »

for him though it's likely to destroy any good will he may have with his manager if it only comes out then rather than telling them now during a chat.

And telling him now may have his manager quietly deciding that the OP is somebody they may want to lose and start making some contingency plans in the background.

I'm not saying he will or he won't, but I've seen it happen.

knipex

Vestiapx wrote: »

Ni is actually not that bad, I know loads of people that live in the north and work in the south.

But they work in the south.

The OP will be working in NI for a company in the South. That is a very different situation, different employment laws, public holidays, H&S etc etc.

atilladehun

Since nothing is set in stone return to work wise why don't you approach it from a how would you feel/ is like to explore.

The company might be more open to a pros and cons chat versus a direct question requiring an answer. It's not really one of those better to ask for forgiveness than permission situations.

It's business, you sell things in business, sell them this idea. If you have the ear of a good boss who can make a decision I'd work them as well as HR.

Raytown Rocks

There may be an issue with your wage/income at some point
certain bigger companies ( based in Dublin) have numerous Employees who were previously living and working for said company in Dublin.

Since lockdown many have returned to their own countries on a short term basis while C19 continues.

These companies are looking to offer these guys the options to WFH long term and WFH means being in another country. Also some employees are looking for this option themselves, and have asked the company if its possible

The company is now looking to change their staffs wage based on the country they now live in and not based on a wage for them based in Dublin or the role itself

So
Employee A works for ( google/FB/Twitter etc) in Dublin on €60,000
Employee A moves back to Poland, ( insert any other country here) their salary drops to €45,000 ( insert variable other amount here)


Mostly based on cost of living in the related country.
Lower cost of living = lower wage for the same job
Higher cost of living, your told the job is Dublin based

May not affect you, but this is taking place in certain companies

kathleen37

chef wrote: »

There may be an issue with your wage/income at some point
certain bigger companies ( based in Dublin) have numerous Employees who were previously living and working for said company in Dublin.

Since lockdown many have returned to their own countries on a short term basis while C19 continues.

These companies are looking to offer these guys the options to WFH long term and WFH means being in another country. Also some employees are looking for this option themselves, and have asked the company if its possible

The company is now looking to change their staffs wage based on the country they now live in and not based on a wage for them based in Dublin or the role itself

So
Employee A works for ( google/FB/Twitter etc) in Dublin on €60,000
Employee A moves back to Poland, ( insert any other country here) their salary drops to €45,000 ( insert variable other amount here)


Mostly based on cost of living in the related country.
Lower cost of living = lower wage for the same job
Higher cost of living, your told the job is Dublin based

May not affect you, but this is taking place in certain companies

I don't doubt this.

This issue isn't how much tax you are going to pay (in whatever country you decide to live in) as that is your issue.

The issue is the tax/legal implications for the firm you work for. If this isn't already in place, it is a lot of hassle that not many firms are prepared to set up. If it benefited them, it would be pretty standard. It really isn't due to the complexities of doing it.

StupidLikeAFox

Most people i know who have been working from home have been told that post covid it will be a hybrid approach, a split between wfh and office.

Theres no harm in asking your manager if the company has thought about what work will look like post covid and go from there. The senior management should be thinking about this really

GreeBo

kathleen37 wrote: »

I don't doubt this.

This issue isn't how much tax you are going to pay (in whatever country you decide to live in) as that is your issue.

The issue is the tax/legal implications for the firm you work for. If this isn't already in place, it is a lot of hassle that not many firms are prepared to set up. If it benefited them, it would be pretty standard. It really isn't due to the complexities of doing it.

It's not even about the hassle, it's about the crap load of cash they would be liable to pay in taxes!

Greenlights16

knipex wrote: »

But they work in the south.

The OP will be working in NI for a company in the South. That is a very different situation, different employment laws, public holidays, H&S etc etc.

No I’m fully intending on coming down 2 days per week. Some weeks maybe more as I’ll be visiting the in laws at the weekends in ROI. Will definitely not be working 100% in NI month to month.

Also have an ROI address which can be used to my advantage

Greenlights16

Happy enough to have thread closed moderators.

Thanks for all replies, some very good discussion and viewpoints.

Took the gamble and asked a very senior member in the firm who I have a good day to day relationship with (above or on same level as my line manager) .

He said to say nothing to my line manager and don’t worry as there’s plenty like me. He’s recently moved home to west of Ireland and doesn’t intend coming to the head office any more than twice per month for 1/2 days.

“Just keep the head down and keep working hard “ great relief.

Will tidy up things with HR and keep them right, change of address etc.

Thanks all.

Dial Hard

I think you and the person you spoke to are missing the giant, glaring point - he's still in this jurisdiction. You won't be.

Greenlights16

I’m aware of that. But I’ll have more than enough evidence and proof to prove I was in the republic for more than 183 days per year. For all HMRC needs to know I reside in NI only at the weekends and stay in Dublin for work the rest of the week.

No longer worried about the matter