Does Virgin Media broadband have a monopoly?

gaiscioch

I'm looking for alternatives (in Dublin) to my Virgin Media broadband, which would increase from €62 per month to €92 per month next month if I stay with Virgin. However, all the alternatives have a far inferior internet speed.

The Competition Authority, as far as I'm aware, forced competition in electricity about 20 years ago. So, today ESB Networks manages the entire network but there are a number of distinct electricity suppliers offering electricity from it/competing against each other.

Are there any proposals to allow competition on the Virgin Media broadband infrastructure so that consumers could benefit from a lower price?

Sconsey

I am fairly sure the Virgin infrastructure is privately owned so they would not be under any pressure to share it would they? not sure to be honest.

You could check out if Siro is available in your area, that is a shared infrastructure, different providers using it, good speeds.

If all else fails, you can try to bluff Virgin, give them a call and tell them you want to cancel your subscription. They will usually offer you a better deal if you threaten to leave.

dubguy45

After many years, competition has arrived in my estate where fibre boxes were fitted on poles earlier on this year. I received an offer from Eir last week of €49 for 24 months. Not sure what I will do but if feels good to finally have an option. Do you know if there are any plans to upgrade your area?

dam099

gaiscioch wrote: »

I'm looking for alternatives (in Dublin) to my Virgin Media broadband, which would increase from €62 per month to €92 per month next month if I stay with Virgin. However, all the alternatives have a far inferior internet speed.

The Competition Authority, as far as I'm aware, forced competition in electricity about 20 years ago. So, today ESB Networks manages the entire network but there are a number of distinct electricity suppliers offering electricity from it/competing against each other.

Are there any proposals to allow competition on the Virgin Media broadband infrastructure so that consumers could benefit from a lower price?

Sconsey wrote: »

I am fairly sure the Virgin infrastructure is privately owned so they would not be under any pressure to share it would they? not sure to be honest.

So is Eir but they are forced to offer wholesale access, the determinant is "significant market power". While within certain urban areas you could possibly argue VM do have that, its obviously not widespread enough for Comreg to also designate them as having "significant market power".

Also the EU metric for high speed broadband is still 30Mb I think (will probably change soon to 100Mb if it hasn't already) and I would imagine a good proportion of VM's footprint can access that over VDSL (while 240/360/500/1000 are more desirable the regulators deem 30Mb good enough).

Finally between SIRO and Eir's Urban fibre roll out there will be meaningful alternatives to them over the next few years so any action commenced now would likely be moot by the time it was resolved.

As Sconsey suggests bluff them with a cancellation threat. If they try to scare you off based on speeds tell them you are on top of a VDSL cabinet so can get 100Mb which is good enough for you (they wont check).

gaiscioch

Yeah, I wasn't sure what the ownership status of Virgin's broadband infrastructure is. Before Virgin was NTL it was Cablelink, which according to the NTL entry on Wikipedia was formed in 1986 from an RTÉ subsidiary named RTÉ Relays as far back as 1970.

I had thought monopolies other than state-owned ones - e.g. Iarnród Éireann - were illegal, and even state-owned ones like Dublin Bus seem to have been forced to allow competition. So, if Virgin do have in effect a monopoly with their broadband speed it would be interesting to find out why the state legally permits a private firm to have such a dominant position in the market.

I did contact Virgin and they said the best they could do was to charge €87 per month rather than €92 per month - which is still €25 per month/€300 per annum more than I'd be paying for precisely the same service as last year. When I first joined NTL/Virgin about six years ago the same basic package (different name, I presume) was €40 or €44. So, there's been massive price inflation from Virgin in recent years - but in terms of speed they have no competitors so can get away with their dominant market position.

No SIRO here yet, but I signed up for notification of when it will come.

FileNotFound

Eir inherited the national and historically tax payer funded infrastructure thus the sharing I suppose.

Virgin bought a private non public funded infrastructure.

The fact that virgin are ahead on speeds might not constite a monopoly, let's be blunt you can get 100mb pretty much everywhere in Dublin now.

Also the national BB plan will result in multiple options in the coming years technically.

Could always cancel, then get the missus to sign up instead? Or a housemate if that's an option.

bk

gaiscioch wrote: »

Yeah, I wasn't sure what the ownership status of Virgin's broadband infrastructure is. Before Virgin was NTL it was Cablelink, which according to the NTL entry on Wikipedia was formed in 1986 from an RTÉ subsidiary named RTÉ Relays as far back as 1970.

FYI, Semi-states can own purely commercial arms with no government funding. For example Dublin Bus Airlink and tour services or Bus Eireanns Expressway services are purely commercial arms that receive no government funding.

RTE Relays and Telecom Eireanns investment in the cable network would have been separate commercial operations.

Either way that was now 22 years ago and since then Liberty Global (VM/UPC's owners) have spent hundreds of millions upgrading the network to allow these high speeds. It would be rather unjust to force them to allow others to use their network.

Telecom Eireann/Eircom/Eir was a very different story, they were the national telecoms company, with a public paid for telephone network, thus when privatised, they were designated as having Significant Market Power and required to open their network to others.

I'd also point out, that current cable networks don't really lend themselves to being resold by other companies in the same manner that VDSL/FTTH does. If someone else was to resell VM, it would just be a rebranding with little chance for much price difference.

I also don't think you can argue that VM have a monopoly either, when Eir offers broadband in much the same areas, sure not as fast, but being better then your competitor doesn't make you a monopoly!!

Imagine spending hundreds of millions to deliver the best product, better then any competitor only to be forced to open your network to others, because your competitors are too stingy to invest in their own network and products. That wouldn't be very unjust IMO.

gaiscioch wrote: »

I had thought monopolies other than state-owned ones - e.g. Iarnród Éireann - were illegal, and even state-owned ones like Dublin Bus seem to have been forced to allow competition.

On Dublin Bus, they weren't, not in the way you are suggesting. PSO (public service obligation) routes are heavily subsidised by the government, in the past this was just DB and BE (not Expressway), but now the government is opting to also bring in other operators like Go Ahead Ireland to operate PSO routes too.

Basically DB/BE/GA/Transdev are paid by the government to operate certain services and routes under contract from the government. It is a completely different situation.

gaiscioch wrote: »

So, if Virgin do have in effect a monopoly with their broadband speed it would be interesting to find out why the state legally permits a private firm to have such a dominant position in the market.

But they don't have a monopoly. Eir VDSL is available to most people. Slower yes, but that doesn't mean a monopoly. And both Siro and Eir are rolling out FTTH in VM areas, so clearly not a monopoly.

gaiscioch wrote: »

I did contact Virgin and they said the best they could do was to charge €87 per month rather than €92 per month - which is still €25 per month/€300 per annum more than I'd be paying for precisely the same service as last year. When I first joined NTL/Virgin about six years ago the same basic package (different name, I presume) was €40 or €44. So, there's been massive price inflation from Virgin in recent years - but in terms of speed they have no competitors so can get away with their dominant market position.

That sounds like you are getting TV and phone service from them too. Do you need TV, would FTA satellite and Saorview do better? And then you could just get broadband from VM for less.

In the end VM has a better product because they invested in their network and now they can reap the rewards by charging a premium for that.

It it up to you to decide if that is worth it or not. You could save money by cancelling TV or dropping down to the 250mb/s BB package or switching to Eir VDSL.

ED E

gaiscioch wrote: »

So, today ESB Networks manages the entire network but there are a number of distinct electricity suppliers offering electricity from it/competing against each other.

Haha, its competition for who sends you a PDF every couple months. Thats it. Even less competition than between retail ISPs.




In lots of cases its Virgin 360 vs OE's 80Mb. Sounds like a huge downgrade, its really not. Once OE reach a certain threshold its basically enough. Kinda like Irish water offering you 600L/seconds at your tap, cool but you could never use it. 15Mb x2 for two HD Netflix/Prime streams is all most households need.

CoBo55

ED E wrote: »

Haha, its competition for who sends you a PDF every couple months. Thats it. Even less competition than between retail ISPs.




In lots of cases its Virgin 360 vs OE's 80Mb. Sounds like a huge downgrade, its really not. Once OE reach a certain threshold its basically enough. Kinda like Irish water offering you 600L/seconds at your tap, cool but you could never use it. 15Mb x2 for two HD Netflix/Prime streams is all most households need.

Very true, when I was on fttc getting 65/15 meg day in day out I never had so much as a stutter, there's a lot of willy waving involved in BB speeds.

corminators

Eir are quietly rolling out urban fibre. They've rigged a chunk of my area in South Dublin but it's a few months before it'll be live yet. Had zero communication about it.

A lot of people will switch for offers from the new ISPs available via Eir urban fibre.

loyatemu

FileNotFound wrote: »

let's be blunt you can get 100mb pretty much everywhere in Dublin now.

you definitely can't - there are still plenty of places where you can't get VM and the DSL infrastructure is poor.

I'm in suburban Wicklow and I have VM, but my alternative is 25mb/s over the phone line. There's are roads near me where they can get VM, Siro and 100mb VDSL from Eir, and not far away the only option is <10mb DSL. It's very hit and miss in urban areas.

ted1

corminators wrote: »

Eir are quietly rolling out urban fibre. They've rigged a chunk of my area in South Dublin but it's a few months before it'll be live yet. Had zero communication about it.

A lot of people will switch for offers from the new ISPs available via Eir urban fibre.

Is it not Open Eir doing the roll out?

ED E

ted1 wrote: »

Is it bit Open Eir doing the roll out?

Yes, rural FTTH is finishing and urban FTTH (IFN) is starting up.

FileNotFound

loyatemu wrote: »

you definitely can't - there are still plenty of places where you can't get VM and the DSL infrastructure is poor.

I'm in suburban Wicklow and I have VM, but my alternative is 25mb/s over the phone line. There's are roads near me where they can get VM, Siro and 100mb VDSL from Eir, and not far away the only option is <10mb DSL. It's very hit and miss in urban areas.

Since you live in wicklow that might be the issue when quoting my comment about Dublin. Lol

I had 100mb when I lived in arklow. Couldn't actually get virgin.

Also as I additionally highlighted the NBP is intended to fix the issue.

ED E

FileNotFound wrote: »

Since you live in wicklow that might be the issue when quoting my comment about Dublin. Lol

He's right though. One relative has 8Mb ADSL or 7Mb VDSL. Whole sections of Co. Dublin (Blackrock and the surrounds) have really poor OpenEir coverage. Parts of Dublin 1/2 are also a disaster as the first few exchanges ended up being sprawling mega exchanges that dont really fit VDSL well.

bk

ED E wrote: »

Haha, its competition for who sends you a PDF every couple months. Thats it. Even less competition than between retail ISPs.

It is a lot more complex then that. There is also competition at the power generation level. Many of these companies actually own power plants that generate the electricity. And while obviously all the electricity gets carried on the same network, what power plants they each own and what deals they have with other power generators and the network plays a big part in the price they charge to the end customer.

Interestingly this came about after the disaster of the privatisation of Telecom Eireann. Instead of just privatising the whole of the ESB, they instead broke it up into separate parts, retail, network and generation. Retail and generation were privatised while network was kept under semi state.

It is basically what we all wished happened to Telecom Eireann. It would have been broken up into a separate network and retail arm. With retail privatised and the network kept under government ownership.

ED E wrote: »

He's right though. One relative has 8Mb ADSL or 7Mb VDSL. Whole sections of Co. Dublin (Blackrock and the surrounds) have really poor OpenEir coverage. Parts of Dublin 1/2 are also a disaster as the first few exchanges ended up being sprawling mega exchanges that dont really fit VDSL well.

True, but at least most of those folks have an option of VM cable. And of course the reason for Eir's lack of competition in these areas is their poor investment in their network in these areas. They should have rolled out FTTH in these areas years ago. This is Eir's fault, not VM's

Fortunately it looks like Eir have finally decided to upgrade these areas to FTTH, so people in these areas will soon have more choice.

shanec1928

loyatemu wrote: »

you definitely can't - there are still plenty of places where you can't get VM and the DSL infrastructure is poor.

I'm in suburban Wicklow and I have VM, but my alternative is 25mb/s over the phone line. There's are roads near me where they can get VM, Siro and 100mb VDSL from Eir, and not far away the only option is <10mb DSL. It's very hit and miss in urban areas.

Our choice in south Dublin up until last year was virgin or 20mb vdsl

thenightman

We had 7mb VDSL with eircom in 2011, then UPC at the time upgraded the entire area and we could get 250mb broadband, so we switched straight away. A decade later and all we can get from eir is still 7mb whereas available speeds from UPC/VM have increased to 360mb in the meantime.

This is in suburban west Dublin near big data centres and business parks etc. Eir should be penalised for not investing in upgrading their publicly funded network. In what crazy world should VM be punished for actually investing in their own network and being forced to let competitors use it? good look getting any other ISP to ever invest in a network again (which I'm sure eir would love btw!) if that did happen.

FileNotFound

thenightman wrote: »

We had 7mb VDSL with eircom in 2011, then UPC at the time upgraded the entire area and we could get 250mb broadband, so we switched straight away. A decade later and all we can get from eir is still 7mb whereas available speeds from UPC/VM have increased to 360mb in the meantime.

This is in suburban west Dublin near big data centres and business parks etc. Eir should be penalised for not investing in upgrading their publicly funded network. In what crazy world should VM be punished for actually investing in their own network and being forced to let competitors use it? good look getting any other ISP to ever invest in a network again (which I'm sure eir would love btw!) if that did happen.

You can probably get satellite BB - up to 100mb on most providers.

Few companies offering land-line free BB.

This alone would mean monopoly doesn't exist just because eir have a sh1te line. And may also provide justifications for slow upgrades - multiple alternative options. (an eir excuse not a justification from me)