Fire alarm in apartment building

touchdown77

I'm on the management committee of an apartment building where we have fire alarms in 3 blocks.

The alarms were installed at time of construction around '89/'90 and have been unchanged since then and are tested annually.


I see a number of problems with the setup;

• the sounders are only in the hallway, not in any of the apartments
• the zones are grouped together, so apartment 1&2 are one zone and hallway breakglass is another zone and apartment 3 & 4& hallway detector another zone. So its difficult to find out what detector has activated (but it rarely does go off)
• the panel is housed in the electricity press in the hallway and you need to stand on a chair/steps to reach the key & buttons.
• there is no external sounder

So a few questions;

-can the system remain as it is and still be compliant? I don't think so because the above issues seem very fundamental

-who decides what upgrades/changes are required? electrician or engineer

-if we make improvements, do we need to comply with todays fire alarm regulations or at the time of construction?


Any advice welcome!

kramer1

touchdown77 wrote: »

I'm on the management committee of an apartment building where we have fire alarms in 3 blocks.

The alarms were installed at time of construction around '89/'90 and have been unchanged since then and are tested annually.


I see a number of problems with the setup;

• the sounders are only in the hallway, not in any of the apartments
• the zones are grouped together, so apartment 1&2 are one zone and hallway breakglass is another zone and apartment 3 & 4& hallway detector another zone. So its difficult to find out what detector has activated (but it rarely does go off)
• the panel is housed in the electricity press in the hallway and you need to stand on a chair/steps to reach the key & buttons.
• there is no external sounder

So a few questions;

-can the system remain as it is and still be compliant? I don't think so because the above issues seem very fundamental

-who decides what upgrades/changes are required? electrician or engineer

-if we make improvements, do we need to comply with todays fire alarm regulations or at the time of construction?


Any advice welcome!

I’d start with a fire alarm company, get them in to have a look .

Lenar3556

touchdown77 wrote: »

I'm on the management committee of an apartment building where we have fire alarms in 3 blocks.

The alarms were installed at time of construction around '89/'90 and have been unchanged since then and are tested annually.


I see a number of problems with the setup;

• the sounders are only in the hallway, not in any of the apartments
• the zones are grouped together, so apartment 1&2 are one zone and hallway breakglass is another zone and apartment 3 & 4& hallway detector another zone. So its difficult to find out what detector has activated (but it rarely does go off)
• the panel is housed in the electricity press in the hallway and you need to stand on a chair/steps to reach the key & buttons.
• there is no external sounder

So a few questions;

-can the system remain as it is and still be compliant? I don't think so because the above issues seem very fundamental

-who decides what upgrades/changes are required? electrician or engineer

-if we make improvements, do we need to comply with todays fire alarm regulations or at the time of construction?


Any advice welcome!

Sounders fitted only in the apt hallway is unlikely to provide the required levels at the bed head.

Each apartment should have its own separate zone. As should the hallways.

Panel should be accessible.

The average life of a detector is considered to be 10 years so if these systems date to 80’s/90’s they are well past their best.

If the existing systems are being replaced in their entirety, any new system should be to current standards. Although to be honest, most of todays requirements were also part of the 1989 standard, so I would suggest bringing it up to current standards while you are at it.

I would suggest engaging an electrical contractor to quote and carry out the work. Most will purchase the equipment from a specialist who will also commission and certify. Make it known from the outset to anyone quoting that you need a system designed,installed and commissioned to IS3218:2013 and will require the three separate certificates for these functions on completion.

touchdown77

kramer1 wrote: »

I’d start with a fire alarm company, get them in to have a look .

The cert they provide states the protected area as "common areas" which odd because they are excluding the apartments (12 in all).

I'm not sure why they have done that so I want to have my research done before I talk to them.

Lenar3556

touchdown77 wrote: »

The cert they provide states the protected area as "common areas" which odd because they are excluding the apartments (12 in all).

I'm not sure why they have done that so I want to have my research done before I talk to them.

‘They’ being a service/maintenance company?
The cert you refer may be a test cert, confirming that what is installed is working.
While a service firm may have some obligation to report defects in the system design and/or fitness for purpose, their main role to to maintain what is installed.

From what you have said, the whole thing needs to be appraised.

Stoner

You've described a conventional alarm system.

Most systems today are addressable so the panel can map map where each detector is. The system may have been compliant in 1989, and typically new regulation changes do not mean that older systems have to be altered to meet the newer requirements

Usually with apartments there is at least heat detector and a sounder from the main system in each apartment

The apartments themselves now have a higher requirement of domestic unit cover, so a smoke sounder detector in the hall and main living areas etc. They need to be linked

The cabling would most likely not meet the current standard either

Apartments are not hotels, the main systems need to be commissioned and getting 12 sets of keys can be difficult

So the main system is now present in the apartments with sound and some level of defection , with an interface unit to the main system

But most of the newer requirements fall on the domestic side of the install so all those bedroom , living room, kitchen detector sounder units are fed from the local distribution board in each apartment, so its pretty much like someone in a house having to install detectors in a new build or installation in the bedrooms etc, it's up to the home owner

The use of the term common areas is correct. They have distinguished between the domestic and landlord areas

To bring this system up to date there is some work required by the owners of the apartments and the landlord/common areas imo.

I agree that the heads would need replacement, but they might have been replaced during maintenance.

touchdown77

Thanks for the replies so far.

The main problem here is how to get a sounder into the apartments, there is currently only one smoke detector in each apartment hallway, so can this be changed for a detector with sounder base?

Its a 4 wire system and the panels are C-tec 6 zone

Havannah.

No point worrying about it , nothing u can do anyway, you need a fire alarm co. to inspect the system and decide on upgrade work.

Last time I was doing commercial work as a Rec all I could do was installation

Design and commissioning had to be done by someone else, not sure a regular REC would even do any of it now or would want to

Lenar3556

touchdown77 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far.

The main problem here is how to get a sounder into the apartments, there is currently only one smoke detector in each apartment hallway, so can this be changed for a detector with sounder base?

Its a 4 wire system and the panels are C-tec 6 zone

If you convert the installation to addressable, a sounder base can be fitted on the same cabling as the detector in the hallway. But it’s unlikely to provide 75dba at the bed heads. To achieve this it is most likely that sounders will need to be installed within the bedrooms.

You could do an initial test and see what kind of performance a 100dBA sounder in the hallway delivers at the bed heads with the door closed.

Lenar3556

Stoner wrote: »

You've described a conventional alarm system.

Most systems today are addressable so the panel can map map where each detector is. The system may have been compliant in 1989, and typically new regulation changes do not mean that older systems have to be altered to meet the newer requirements

Usually with apartments there is at least heat detector and a sounder from the main system in each apartment

The apartments themselves now have a higher requirement of domestic unit cover, so a smoke sounder detector in the hall and main living areas etc. They need to be linked

The cabling would most likely not meet the current standard either

Apartments are not hotels, the main systems need to be commissioned and getting 12 sets of keys can be difficult

So the main system is now present in the apartments with sound and some level of defection , with an interface unit to the main system

But most of the newer requirements fall on the domestic side of the install so all those bedroom , living room, kitchen detector sounder units are fed from the local distribution board in each apartment, so its pretty much like someone in a house having to install detectors in a new build or installation in the bedrooms etc, it's up to the home owner

The use of the term common areas is correct. They have distinguished between the domestic and landlord areas

To bring this system up to date there is some work required by the owners of the apartments and the landlord/common areas imo.

I agree that the heads would need replacement, but they might have been replaced during maintenance.

Most of the current requirements such as sound levels and zoning also applied in 1989.
Cabling requirements haven’t changed greatly, provided the building doesn’t exceed 3 stories, or has phased evacuation.
The issue I would have with a comment that common areas were tested is if the landlord detection within apartments was tested.

Lenar3556

Havannah. wrote: »

No point worrying about it , nothing u can do anyway, you need a fire alarm co. to inspect the system and decide on upgrade work.

Last time I was doing commercial work as a Rec all I could do was installation

Design and commissioning had to be done by someone else, not sure a regular REC would even do any of it now or would want to

It’s actually still a poorly regulated industry. There is little to stop anyone designing, installing and commissioning a fire alarm system without any demonstrated competence.

So it’s important that a client contracting such works undertakes sufficient due diligence when it comes to appointing a party to undertake some or all of these roles.

Havannah.

Lenar3556 wrote: »

It’s actually still a poorly regulated industry. There is little to stop anyone designing, installing and commissioning a fire alarm system without any demonstrated competence.

So it’s important that a client contracting such works undertakes sufficient due diligence when it comes to appointing a party to undertake some or all of these roles.

I'd agree there if my experience is anything to go by

They need the IS thing now though don't they ?

That wouldn't mean a lot though , just another badge u pay for with a training course

touchdown77

Lenar3556 wrote: »

If you convert the installation to addressable, a sounder base can be fitted on the same cabling as the detector in the hallway. But it’s unlikely to provide 75dba at the bed heads. To achieve this it is most likely that sounders will need to be installed within the bedrooms.

You could do an initial test and see what kind of performance a 100dBA sounder in the hallway delivers at the bed heads with the door closed.

Thanks for everyones advice, we can upgrade the system to addressable without having to run new cables and we can add a stand alone sounder in each apartment hallway (next to the detector) this will be a massive improvement on the current setup where there is no sounder in the apartments.


Thanks again

Stoner

Good stuff op. Again just to stress apartments are not hotels. I understand that you just want to get the best out of a system, however most of the changes in regulations for apartments have occurred at the domestic side of the installation, so the requirements for living area coverage, at bedheads and living rooms is typically taken care of by the owners own domestic system.
I'm glad that your cabling is suitable for providing loop powered sounders, in some cases older systems allowed part of the install to be carried out in mains cabling

I would take the opportunity to explain to the tenants just how important their own smoke detectors are. You don't want them neglecting their own responsibilities

Typically the detector in the apartments from the landlord side is a heat detector, this is far less sensitive than a smoke detector. The sounder / heat detector in an apartment from the mains system is not really a fire alarm for that unit, its just part of the overall system and strategy, usually sitting right next to the landlord heat detector is a mains operated smoke detector fed from the apartments power supply and backed up by a battery. You could take the opportunity to try to make sure your neighbors update and check the batteries in same.

Again, if you are being upgraded to an addressable system with loop powered sounders and detectors, if the loop is not overloaded, I'd look at seeing if your provider could give you a cost to add in an interface unit to allow communication between the domestic detectors (if any) and the main system, again this might just be a future proof thing and something people may not take up but it can very useful.

For example the main system could trigger any linked detector sounders in the units (including some detectors on intruder alarms systems) this has the potential to greatly improve the sound level in the apartment for a landlord activated event.

and from the other direction, a fire in an apartment can be identified earlier by the domestic smoke detectors, notifying the land lord system about a fire in the apartment earlier that the heat detector will allow. There are standard protocols involved in making sure that burning toast scenarios don't end up with evacuating the the whole block.

Again this was not required at the time, but if you are getting the work done now it might be a good time to get everyone onboard. Last thing you want to happen a misinterpretation of the upgrade and they neglect their own system.

Your newsletter could address that too.

Lenar3556

Stoner wrote: »

Good stuff op. Again just to stress apartments are not hotels. I understand that you just want to get the best out of a system, however most of the changes in regulations for apartments have occurred at the domestic side of the installation, so the requirements for living area coverage, at bedheads and living rooms is typically taken care of by the owners own domestic system.
I'm glad that your cabling is suitable for providing loop powered sounders, in some cases older systems allowed part of the install to be carried out in mains cabling

I would take the opportunity to explain to the tenants just how important their own smoke detectors are. You don't want them neglecting their own responsibilities

Typically the detector in the apartments from the landlord side is a heat detector, this is far less sensitive than a smoke detector. The sounder / heat detector in an apartment from the mains system is not really a fire alarm for that unit, its just part of the overall system and strategy, usually sitting right next to the landlord heat detector is a mains operated smoke detector fed from the apartments power supply and backed up by a battery. You could take the opportunity to try to make sure your neighbors update and check the batteries in same.

Again, if you are being upgraded to an addressable system with loop powered sounders and detectors, if the loop is not overloaded, I'd look at seeing if your provider could give you a cost to add in an interface unit to allow communication between the domestic detectors (if any) and the main system, again this might just be a future proof thing and something people may not take up but it can very useful.

For example the main system could trigger any linked detector sounders in the units (including some detectors on intruder alarms systems) this has the potential to greatly improve the sound level in the apartment for a landlord activated event.

and from the other direction, a fire in an apartment can be identified earlier by the domestic smoke detectors, notifying the land lord system about a fire in the apartment earlier that the heat detector will allow. There are standard protocols involved in making sure that burning toast scenarios don't end up with evacuating the the whole block.

Again this was not required at the time, but if you are getting the work done now it might be a good time to get everyone onboard. Last thing you want to happen a misinterpretation of the upgrade and they neglect their own system.

Your newsletter could address that too.

Interconnecting of the domestic and landlord systems isn't permitted by IS3218:2013. The two systems should be entirely separate.

The landlord system sounders should extend into the bedrooms in order to meet the dB requirements at the bedhead for the landlord system. I think the OP recognises this, but as it’s likely to be disruptive, they will see how one sounder in the hallway performs for now.

Good observation on instilling on the OMC members the importance of maintaining their own domestic system.

touchdown77

Thanks to you both -- good advice there and I really like the idea of a newsletter, haven't come across that before.

While we constantly remind apartment owners to maintain their own alarms -- we have no idea if they do or not.

We are currently looking at staying with a conventional system rather than addressable, its far cheaper plus we are putting indicator lights over the apartment doors so addressable seems a bit pointless -- there are only 4 apartments per block so it will be easy to see at a glance which indicator light is on.

The whole exercise has been an education and a minefield, I'm not surprised that many OMC's never upgrade or review their fire alarm, they just stick with what they've got, regardless of whether its effective or not, because its a can of worms and everyone shots the messenger.