Cycle Trail - impact on residents?

ElBlanco

Hi. First-time poster here, recent lurker. Sense of community and support on the forum is really good, thank you. I'm a commuter and recreational road cyclist.

I'm looking for a bit of advice on how to counter local arguments against my portion of proposed the East Coast Cycle Trail.

I have read the Strand Road thread...

The recently published draft DLRCC Development Plan 2022-2028 projects the East Coast Cycle Trail to travel through my estate but the local resident's association committee and several vocal local residents on the estate's watsapp group are already raising fears that the Cycle Trail will have significant negative impact on residents, and are asking for people to make submissions highlighting such concerns to DLRCC before the Public Consultation closes on 16th April.

They have suggested the following impacts:

Noise disruption for our community
Groups stopping on "our" park
Littering
Stranger Danger - no definition of what this danger would be but I associate the phrase with criminals and perverts?
Requiring a new one-way road system
Loss of privacy
Loss of on-street parking
Loss of front gardens
"A cycleway is much more than 2 cycle lanes"

I note that the local resident's association committee also previously campaigned against certain aspects of busconnects pertaining to local cycle infrastructure, e.g. a "pointless cycle lane" in the busconnects plan, which would actually serve two schools and a GAA/soccer pitch. The resident's association committee did not widely canvass for local opinion regarding either busconnects or East Coast Cycle Trail, but represents local opinion as being against the projects nonetheless. I acknowledge that covid19 hasn't helped them in trying to organise a local meeting...

I imagine that none of these arguments are new in areas with proposed cycle route development and I have tried my best to counter them on a group and individual basis. I believe that many of the claims are likely baseless fearmongering, as there are no published plans yet for exactly how the East Coast Cycle Trail would be laid out locally, e.g. on-road width or permanent associated infrastructure, or if any garden space will be taken. I think the reality is that change is hard for many people nor do they wish to lose on-street parking!

I would love to be able to back up my argument in favour of the cycle trail with relevant studies e.g. benefit to local suburban population, and to rebut the implied concerns regarding antisocial behaviour or increase in crime due to a cycle route. I am happy to look for this information myself but wonder if any of ye have come across similar evidence in the past that you would be willing to share with me? I know I can request details of any change in relevant crime statistics from An Garda Síochána (e.g. impact of recent changes in Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire/Sandycove) but I imagine this will take some time and certainly too late for the submission deadline in two weeks.

I believe that the East Coast Cycle Trail will likely come to fruition in time, regardless of such opposition, but it would be great to have the evidence to support the concept in the (doubtless) many discussions to come.

ted1

Bayview?

a148pro

I'd say the answer is to be found in Dungarvan, as I was very struck there by how orientated towards the greenway the local population are, cars stopping for bikes etc. Very tolerant. There seems to have been a strong community engagement down there and I'm sure someone down there could shed light on the benefits. Now that might be an outlier as there is a very definite tourism benefit for the local economy being at the end of a set piece greenway that would not be there for your estate.

Maybe try and link any development of the cycle lane to some nice landscaping being done beside it so the estate gets a benefit.

Much of the concerns noted above are nonsense and scaremongering, although the devil will be in the detail in terms of loss of parking etc. However, there will be a loss of privacy and a sense of self ownership of the estate. Personally, I wouldn't want a cycle route running through as opposed to directly adjacent to my estate.

nilhg

It always amuses me that folk can dream up 101 problems with any change but never find it within themselves to see any benefits to themselves or their community.

A largeish town close to me had a vocal campaign from young people for a skate park which was opposed by locals, the very same locals who complained that there were no facilities for their kids.....

Seaswimmer

ElBlanco wrote: »

Hi. First-time poster here, recent lurker. Sense of community and support on the forum is really good, thank you. I'm a commuter and recreational road cyclist.

I'm looking for a bit of advice on how to counter local arguments against my portion of proposed the East Coast Cycle Trail.

I have read the Strand Road thread...

The recently published draft DLRCC Development Plan 2022-2028 projects the East Coast Cycle Trail to travel through my estate but the local resident's association committee and several vocal local residents on the estate's watsapp group are already raising fears that the Cycle Trail will have significant negative impact on residents, and are asking for people to make submissions highlighting such concerns to DLRCC before the Public Consultation closes on 16th April.

They have suggested the following impacts:

Noise disruption for our community
Groups stopping on "our" park
Littering
Stranger Danger - no definition of what this danger would be but I associate the phrase with criminals and perverts?
Requiring a new one-way road system
Loss of privacy
Loss of on-street parking
Loss of front gardens
"A cycleway is much more than 2 cycle lanes"

I note that the local resident's association committee also previously campaigned against certain aspects of busconnects pertaining to local cycle infrastructure, e.g. a "pointless cycle lane" in the busconnects plan, which would actually serve two schools and a GAA/soccer pitch. The resident's association committee did not widely canvass for local opinion regarding either busconnects or East Coast Cycle Trail, but represents local opinion as being against the projects nonetheless. I acknowledge that covid19 hasn't helped them in trying to organise a local meeting...

I imagine that none of these arguments are new in areas with proposed cycle route development and I have tried my best to counter them on a group and individual basis. I believe that many of the claims are likely baseless fearmongering, as there are no published plans yet for exactly how the East Coast Cycle Trail would be laid out locally, e.g. on-road width or permanent associated infrastructure, or if any garden space will be taken. I think the reality is that change is hard for many people nor do they wish to lose on-street parking!

I would love to be able to back up my argument in favour of the cycle trail with relevant studies e.g. benefit to local suburban population, and to rebut the implied concerns regarding antisocial behaviour or increase in crime due to a cycle route. I am happy to look for this information myself but wonder if any of ye have come across similar evidence in the past that you would be willing to share with me? I know I can request details of any change in relevant crime statistics from An Garda Síochána (e.g. impact of recent changes in Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire/Sandycove) but I imagine this will take some time and certainly too late for the submission deadline in two weeks.

I believe that the East Coast Cycle Trail will likely come to fruition in time, regardless of such opposition, but it would be great to have the evidence to support the concept in the (doubtless) many discussions to come.

Not sure what age you are but if experience with the S2S project since the early eighties is anything to go by you and all the residents will be long past worrying if/when it happens!!

On a serious note, until detailed plans are designed and published then all you will get is scaremongering. Once something definite as opposed to aspirational is actually proposed then people can decide on its merits with all the information to hand.

smacl

The angle that I'd go for on the resident's committee side of things would be to float the idea that proximity to high quality cycling infrastructure is liable to increase the value of adjoining properties at a time where there is a modal shift to cycling and e-biking for commuting and schools. Never underestimate the motivation of greed :pac:

magicbastarder

i wonder if there is anyone from somewhere such a facility has been put in, who would be willing to talk about it?

(was listening to a podcast the other day where the two people talking were discussing that the best way to get people interested/change their minds, is by telling them stories)

Large bottle small glass

Covid and Greenway have driven Dungarvan property prices; that is not a universally a good thing but would be a big selling point to people who currently own property in an area.

magicbastarder

the problem is that if there are no concrete plans, the objectors can use the spectre of *anything* - e.g. CPOing of front gardens, which may just be scaremongering. i'd say if you're actively involved, it's managing the message so it doesn't get out of control, which is key.

ElBlanco

That's all great feedback, thank you.

It's so early in the process that there's little/no detail of the proposal, so loads of scope for catastrophising! Without a doubt, there will be plenty of future opportunity for people to voice their opinions and I'm trying to head off the absolute negativity before it becomes the established narrative.

I live just south of Bayview - Corbawn area.

I'll suggest the potential personal gain (property values), as well as community visual amenity/environmental benefit (improved landscaping etc).

Type 17

Plenty of positive aspects of greenways/bike routes mentioned in this article: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40257833.html

Seaswimmer

magicbastarder wrote: »

the problem is that if there are no concrete plans, the objectors can use the spectre of *anything* - e.g. CPOing of front gardens, which may just be scaremongering. i'd say if you're actively involved, it's managing the message so it doesn't get out of control, which is key.

From previous experience in my area (Deansgrange and surrounds) it appears that when any cycling infrastructure plans are unveiled there are major objections on local social media and residents groups. Almost to the point where you feel you are a lone voice in favour. However the reality is different and often the majority of official submissions are positive.
The Blackrock Main Street scheme being a good example. Huge outcry on social media but 76% in favour on the submissions.
In my opinion DLR council for all the criticism they get are usually fairly good with designing plans, inviting submissions and listening to feedback.

magicbastarder

looks like that's near shankill dart station - based on what i've seen where i grew up, expect the argument to be made that it'll facilitate rail users parking their cars in nearby estates.

though there does seem to be decent permeability in the local estates (i'm not familiar with the area, just looking at it on google maps)

Mercian Pro

A few comments about Residents' Associations based on direct experience and a lot of observation:

• Most people get involved on RA Committees beside they are opposed to something and not because they want to achieve something positive.
• There are often many residents with very different views to their RA but who don't want to seen to oppose what they assume is the consensus view.
• Initial public meetings about a particular issue can often be very heated and divisive but follow-up meetings are often less well attended and more likely to approve something.
• Most politicians, local and national, will try to work out which position will bring them most support before making public announcements although there are a few principled ones out there.

Not sure how helpful any of this will be ElBlanco.

Thelonious Monk

Seaswimmer wrote: »

The Blackrock Main Street scheme being a good example. Huge outcry on social media but 76% in favour on the submissions.

Is that not because cycling groups and the cycling/pedestrianisation communities on Twitter etc are filling in the submissions?

Seaswimmer

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is that not because cycling groups and the cycling/pedestrianisation communities on Twitter etc are filling in the submissions?

Well that is what the objectors will say if things don't go their way. But then why don't all the individual objectors fill in opposing submissions. We have to have some faith in a public submission process.

suilegorma

Could you post any links to the proposed plans? I live in the area and would love to see more cycling provision. I can't see anything when I google.

Seaswimmer

suilegorma wrote: »

Could you post any links to the proposed plans? I live in the area and would love to see more cycling provision. I can't see anything when I google.

Possbly in here somewhere..



https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/planning/draftcdp2022-2028/

beggars_bush

I very much doubt cyclists using a greenway will be littering or loitering

ElBlanco

Interesting points about sometimes feeling like a lone voice in favour and many other people not wishing to be seen to oppose the assumed consensus view; this echoes the local generally positive observations on the draft Busconnectss proposal rather than the generally negative submission from several local RAs.

I'm definitely of the view to get actively involved with RA rather than hurling from the ditch.

There's an interactive map of the draft plan - you'll find it if you search "DLRCC draft development plan interactive web map" (sorry, can't post link as new user on boards)

ted1

ElBlanco wrote: »

Interesting points about sometimes feeling like a lone voice in favour and many other people not wishing to be seen to oppose the assumed consensus view; this echoes the local generally positive observations on the draft Busconnectss proposal rather than the generally negative submission from several local RAs.

I'm definitely of the view to get actively involved with RA rather than hurling from the ditch.

There's an interactive map of the draft plan - you'll find it if you search "DLRCC draft development plan interactive web map" (sorry, can't post link as new user on boards)

Here it is : https://dlrcocouncil.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7ddc0604c01d47ab956cbee1eb27c294

The route through Corbawn is grand. I use it regularly enough to get the the park with the kids.

I can’t see any reason for the residents to be upset, bar just not liking cyclists.

breezy1985

The biggest negative impact from cycle trails in Ireland is the worry that Ends Kenny will start loitering around

AndrewJRenko

ted1 wrote: »

I can’t see any reason for the residents to be upset, bar just not liking cyclists.

Welcome to Sandymount.

buffalo

breezy1985 wrote: »

The biggest negative impact from cycle trails in Ireland is the worry that Ends Kenny will start loitering around

Ends Kenny? It's Edna Kenny.

breezy1985

buffalo wrote: »

Ends Kenny? It's Edna Kenny.

Auto correct obviously