Dead material in permanent pasture

Siamsa Sessions

Hi all,

I've an extra 10 acres this year after our tenant's lease finished on 1-Jan.

He didn't graze it much and only really needed it for the paperwork. Anyway, it's old permanent pasture and there's lots of dead material on the surface - see the pictures attached.

I did a soil test in January and pH is 6.3, it's index-2 for P and index-4 for K. I also dug a few holes and there's around 10 inches of top soil. I'll spread 2 ton lime/acre in April when there's another field being reseeded. So, overall the soil itself is not in bad shape - it's just what's on the surface that I'm trying to clear.

The sheep are grazing it at the moment, which is helping to clear it a little. But they're rearing lambs so I can't make them skin it either.

Any ideas for how to give it a freshen up? e.g. would a run of a tyne-harrow help remove the dead material? Or are there other "regenerative" ways that might help?

Thanks

Reggie.

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I've an extra 10 acres this year after our tenant's lease finished on 1-Jan.

He didn't graze it much and only really needed it for the paperwork. Anyway, it's old permanent pasture and there's lots of dead material on the surface - see the pictures attached.

I did a soil test in January and pH is 6.3, it's index-2 for P and index-4 for K. I also dug a few holes and there's around 10 inches of top soil. I'll spread 2 ton lime/acre in April when there's another field being reseeded. So, overall the soil itself is not in bad shape - it's just what's on the surface that I'm trying to clear.

The sheep are grazing it at the moment, which is helping to clear it a little. But they're rearing lambs so I can't make them skin it either.

Any ideas for how to give it a freshen up? e.g. would a run of a tyne-harrow help remove the dead material? Or are there other "regenerative" ways that might help?

Thanks

Time harrow would remove alot of crap

CloughCasey1

Reggie. wrote: »

Time harrow would remove alot of crap

+1

Bass Reeves

If you cannot access a tine harrow a few runs of a chain harrow will help as well.PH is still a bit high considering it got 2T of lime/acre a year ago. Try to get it really grazed out this autumn

Dinzee Conlee

I wouldn’t have said that’s too bad?

I would think a graze, then slurry, then graze again later on...

I imagine the regenerative folk would say let it come on a bit, and then run a good number of animals over it in very short bursts, so they aren’t on the ground very long...

If it’s to stay in permanent pasture, I wouldn’t worry too much about the dead material. That’ll rot away in time with good grazing...

But - I wouldn’t be super at managing grass too

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I've an extra 10 acres this year after our tenant's lease finished on 1-Jan.

He didn't graze it much and only really needed it for the paperwork. Anyway, it's old permanent pasture and there's lots of dead material on the surface - see the pictures attached.

I did a soil test in January and pH is 6.3, it's index-2 for P and index-4 for K. I also dug a few holes and there's around 10 inches of top soil. I'll spread 2 ton lime/acre in April when there's another field being reseeded. So, overall the soil itself is not in bad shape - it's just what's on the surface that I'm trying to clear.

The sheep are grazing it at the moment, which is helping to clear it a little. But they're rearing lambs so I can't make them skin it either.

Any ideas for how to give it a freshen up? e.g. would a run of a tyne-harrow help remove the dead material? Or are there other "regenerative" ways that might help?

Thanks

Regenerative ways one could say spray on humic acid and molasses.
That's what the tillage boyos do/did to get rid of chopped straw and stubble.

That info came from someone recently deceased.

Good loser

I've often seen a lot more dead material in a grass field.
How about fertilising it for silage? Or hay?

endainoz

Think a few runs with the chain harrow would do it good, could try broadcasting some seed on it too to try establish more species of grass. That's what I'm going to try with a paddock or two this year, Ive heard the weather really needs to be on your side for it to work well though...

Bass Reeves

endainoz wrote: »

Think a few runs with the chain harrow would do it good, could try broadcasting some seed on it too to try establish more species of grass. That's what I'm going to try with a paddock or two this year, Ive heard the weather really needs to be on your side for it to work well though...

What you are trying to do is similar to stitching. It's hard to do effective stitching as new grass is competing with older grass

I have a lad do it twice. You need moist conditions. You need to use slug pellets. When grass germinate's you need to keep it grazed down and when it gets going fertlize it. Using a stitcher it costs about 110/ acre plus reduced grass output for 8-10 weeks

Reggie.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What you are trying to do is similar to stitching. It's hard to do effective stitching as new grass is competing with older grass

I have a lad do it twice. You need moist conditions. You need to use slug pellets. When grass germinate's you need to keep it grazed down and when it gets going fertlize it. Using a stitcher it costs about 110/ acre plus reduced grass output for 8-10 weeks

110 an acre?

Bass Reeves

Reggie. wrote: »

110 an acre?

About 40 for grass seed (8-9kgs), slug pellets and 60/ acre for stitcher. Ideally if there is a few docks you should spray them before doing tjis

Reggie.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

About 40 for grass seed (8-9kgs), slug pellets and 60/ acre for stitcher. Ideally if there is a few docks you should spray them before doing tjis

I may up me prices if your paying €60 for a stitcher.

Only put out slug pellets if grass is sprayed off. If stitching into live grassland I've never used pellets

Bass Reeves

Reggie. wrote: »

I may up me prices if your paying €60 for a stitcher.

Only put out slug pellets if grass is sprayed off. If stitching into live grassland I've never used pellets

It recommended now as slugs can go along the line of the stitcher and eat the young seedlings or so I was told. Have a bag of pellets there for a few year so just threw them in

Reggie.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It recommended now as slugs can go along the line of the stitcher and eat the young seedlings or so I was told. Have a bag of pellets there for a few year so just threw them in

Your talking about a drill Bass not a stitcher

endainoz

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What you are trying to do is similar to stitching. It's hard to do effective stitching as new grass is competing with older grass

I have a lad do it twice. You need moist conditions. You need to use slug pellets. When grass germinate's you need to keep it grazed down and when it gets going fertlize it. Using a stitcher it costs about 110/ acre plus reduced grass output for 8-10 weeks

It would be similar to stitching yeah, except op wants to remove dead material aswell. As I said I'll be trying something similar but obviously without the slug pellets or fert. Watery slurry would do as a substitute though.

148multi

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Hi all,

I've an extra 10 acres this year after our tenant's lease finished on 1-Jan.

He didn't graze it much and only really needed it for the paperwork. Anyway, it's old permanent pasture and there's lots of dead material on the surface - see the pictures attached.

I did a soil test in January and pH is 6.3, it's index-2 for P and index-4 for K. I also dug a few holes and there's around 10 inches of top soil. I'll spread 2 ton lime/acre in April when there's another field being reseeded. So, overall the soil itself is not in bad shape - it's just what's on the surface that I'm trying to clear.

The sheep are grazing it at the moment, which is helping to clear it a little. But they're rearing lambs so I can't make them skin it either.

Any ideas for how to give it a freshen up? e.g. would a run of a tyne-harrow help remove the dead material? Or are there other "regenerative" ways that might help?

Thanks

From experience this happens from ground being in meadow or heavy covers of grass not being grazed out for a number of years, the first thing you want to find out is there couch grass.
If it's couch grass I'd say roundup.
If it just dead permanent grass get dry hggetts on it and give them meal, graze as bare as you can, tight grazing and fertility will create the right conditions for the higher quality grass.
Very tight grazing in the spring and autumn.

Siamsa Sessions

148multi wrote: »

From experience this happens from ground being in meadow or heavy covers of grass not being grazed out for a number of years, the first thing you want to find out is there couch grass.
If it's couch grass I'd say roundup.
If it just dead permanent grass get dry hggetts on it and give them meal, graze as bare as you can, tight grazing and fertility will create the right conditions for the higher quality grass.
Very tight grazing in the spring and autumn.

I'm already tempted to go with Roundup as there's a good few patches of nettles emerging too. Would stitching or drilling grass seed be enough after that?

I'd be spreading 2t lime/acre and 18-6-12 as well before setting the grass seed.

Or would it need a run of a chain or tyne harrow before setting the seed?

Castlekeeper

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm already tempted to go with Roundup as there's a good few patches of nettles emerging too. Would stitching or drilling grass seed be enough after that?

I'd be spreading 2t lime/acre and 18-6-12 as well before setting the grass seed.

Or would it need a run of a chain or tyne harrow before setting the seed?

You must be making good money from farming to be thinking of pumping all that stuff into the poor field
At that pH without liming you could only be locking up traces by spreading lime. 2 bags of gran lime to the acre might be a lot more beneficial.
The few nettles are no harm for the butterflies or the birds.
A few grazings, a cut of hay/silage or a few weeks drought and that bit of thatch will be gone, ideally do nothing and the change in farming system will take care of it, it's good bug food.
Ps.
I know little about grazing sheep but they seem to get in fine with high covers in some English farms on social media.

Birdnuts

Castlekeeper wrote: »

You must be making good money from farming to be thinking of pumping all that stuff into the poor field
At that pH without liming you could only be locking up traces by spreading lime. 2 bags of gran lime to the acre might be a lot more beneficial.
The few nettles are no harm for the butterflies or the birds.
A few grazings, a cut of hay/silage or a few weeks drought and that bit of thatch will be gone, ideally do nothing and the change in farming system will take care of it, it's good bug food.
Ps.
I know little about grazing sheep but they seem to get in fine with high covers in some English farms on social media.

For sheep I'd be looking to increase the herbal element of the pasture - there are many good reasons for this eg. the fact that they preferential graze this element, increased natural worm resistance, less issues with scour etc.

Bass Reeves

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm already tempted to go with Roundup as there's a good few patches of nettles emerging too. Would stitching or drilling grass seed be enough after that?

I'd be spreading 2t lime/acre and 18-6-12 as well before setting the grass seed.

Or would it need a run of a chain or tyne harrow before setting the seed?

Reseeding is not necessarily the answer. While I have a good bit of mine reseeded ground is definately easier poached. I think part of your problem is your PH it is still low when you consider that you only spread it last year. I
What was the pH pre liming. I definately get it skinned this autumn. Out winter a dozen bucket fed weanlings on it for 2-3months. Feed them good silage and very little or no ration. They should skin it. They will be mad for any thing that tastes different to the silage

Dinzee Conlee

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Reseeding is not necessarily the answer. While I have a good bit of mine reseeded ground is definately easier poached. I think part of your problem is your PH it is still low when you consider that you only spread it last year. I
What was the pH pre liming. I definately get it skinned this autumn. Out winter a dozen bucket fed weanlings on it for 2-3months. Feed them good silage and very little or no ration. They should skin it. They will be mad for any thing that tastes different to the silage

The pH is 6.3 - I wouldn't have thought this was very low is it?

P is low, but this could be brought up over time with slurry and some compound fertilser if you wanted...

I would have thought a bit of slurry/fertilser and one or two grazings and that fields will look totally different come june/july...

Hard Knocks

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

The pH is 6.3 - I wouldn't have thought this was very low is it?

P is low, but this could be brought up over time with slurry and some compound fertilser if you wanted...

I would have thought a bit of slurry/fertilser and one or two grazings and that fields will look totally different come june/july...

Would Slag or super phos be better to up the P

Bass Reeves

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

The pH is 6.3 - I wouldn't have thought this was very low is it?

P is low, but this could be brought up over time with slurry and some compound fertilser if you wanted...

I would have thought a bit of slurry/fertilser and one or two grazings and that fields will look totally different come june/july...

It's just he spread 2 ton it of lime last April. I would have taught that would have got it up above 6.5. while 6.3 is a fairly ok pH if it the lowest you go to, you hope to be above that after liming.

Fertlizer and slurry will drag it back below this figure.

Castlekeeper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It's just he spread 2 ton it of lime last April. I would have taught that would have got it up above 6.5. while 6.3 is a fairly ok pH if it the lowest you go to, you hope to be above that after liming.

Fertlizer and slurry will drag it back below this figure.

The lime thing, as far as I can pick up it's just back from leasing and he's talking about liming this coming April.
Siamsa?

Index 2 P is grand imho, ideally what is wanted is to get the soil biology to mobilise the other 90% of the P that's in the soil reserves ("locked up"). Round up, and acid salt soluble fertiliser and excess oxidising lime won't help there.
Physalg from Grassland Agro is the best P source.

Awkwardstroke

I would suggest hard grazing, slurry (if you can get it) and N fertiliser. Reseeding is quite expensive and you would be surprised how much a field cab be transformed by the above. One thing is to avoid poaching as this won’t help the situation.

Siamsa Sessions

Thanks for all the suggestions folks.

I’m not sure of the exact plan but I’ll post an update or 2 in the coming weeks and months.

Re the pH and lime: it hasn’t got lime yet and the pH is 6.3. I was thinking about spreading 2t/acre in April when I’ll be getting lime for reseeding another field that I outwintered weanlings on.

Bass Reeves

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Thanks for all the suggestions folks.

I’m not sure of the exact plan but I’ll post an update or 2 in the coming weeks and months.

Re the pH and lime: it hasn’t got lime yet and the pH is 6.3. I was thinking about spreading 2t/acre in April when I’ll be getting lime for reseeding another field that I outwintered weanlings on.

That is different. The lime will help in decaying the dead grass. It will bring the pH up and will sweeten the grass

Good loser

Bass Reeves wrote: »

That is different. The lime will help in decaying the dead grass. It will bring the pH up and will sweeten the grass

That's true. But a pH of 6.3 is pretty okay anyway.

Bass Reeves

Good loser wrote: »

That's true. But a pH of 6.3 is pretty okay anyway.

Not after you spread lime

Robson99

Tight graze, good run of a chain harrow and a bag of 18.6.12 and that will be fine

Robson99

Robson99 wrote: »

Tight graze, good run of a chain harrow and a bag of 18.6.12 and that will be fine

How effective is a chain harrow at pulling up that old dead grass?

I was thinking of freshening up a few fields.

Robson99

Deleted User wrote: »

How effective is a chain harrow at pulling up that old dead grass?

I was thinking of freshening up a few fields.

I find it good but you need the ground to be good and dry

Robson99

Robson99 wrote: »

I find it good but you need the ground to be good and dry

I was thinking about getting a tyne harrow.

Seen a few videos on you tube and they look good.

Palatine harrows in Limerick.

Reggie.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was thinking about getting a tyne harrow.

Seen a few videos on you tube and they look good.

Palatine harrows in Limerick.

Good harrow. Had one for a few years

Dozer1

Reggie, have you you any experience of this one https://www.drumlishfarmmachinery.com/carre-prairial-grassland-rejuvenation/

I like the fact its cutting the ground as well as giving it a good scratching like the Palatine I know its more expensive but is it a more effective machine

Reggie.

Dozer1 wrote: »

Reggie, have you you any experience of this one https://www.drumlishfarmmachinery.com/carre-prairial-grassland-rejuvenation/

I like the fact its cutting the ground as well as giving it a good scratching like the Palatine I know its more expensive but is it a more effective machine

Its very similar to the guttler only its missing the rear guttler roller. Would do the job but I'd prefer the roller for over seeding and I'd say it would be too aggressive for general cleaning of a swarth

Reggie.

Reggie. wrote: »

Good harrow. Had one for a few years

What about the rakeman 3000, naff name but looks the same https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8iJVFmPjv0

Its available at the local dealer

Reggie.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What about the rakeman 3000, naff name but looks the same https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8iJVFmPjv0

Its available at the local dealer

Think it is just as good tbh. Dont know alot about them as never used them myself but know of lads that do and they seem happy enough

Robson99

https://www.donedeal.ie/harrows-for-sale/hackett-chain-harrows/6772385
IMO these are the best type of chain harrow. Preferably the ones with a frame for transport