Builder Woes

ridgewooder

Hey all,

So my house is going through a renovation at the moment and I'm finding out that my builder has been doing what appears to be a less than satisfactory job on an RSJ for what was a load bearing wall.

After engaging with an engineer last week, my understanding is that the final result is very worrying and ultimately what I now have is a house that's not safe to be inside.

Hiring a builder for a project like this is never easy. However after getting 3 quotes and doing what I believed to be the necessary due diligence, I selected a builder based on conversations I had with him, several visits to my property and a price that I felt was reasonable.

The majority of what has been done so far seems very good - I.e. re-wiring, plumbing, insulation. Much of which was done by other professionals he works with. However one of the most significant jobs he had to do (which was the RSJ) has not been done well. The plan was to open up the living room and kitchen. He has done so, and there is an RSJ now in place. However the RSJ is being held up by blocks on either side. Some of the blocks on one side were crumbling, so the RSJ is now sitting on short vertical beam which is resting on original blocks from the building.

When I saw this, I asked him if it was safe and he assured me it was. I have since found out that a certificate of compliance is required (my bad, I should have known that from the beginning). When I shared images with the engineer (in order pursue seeking a cert), he advised me he would be very worried about the current installation.

So my question is - I am meeting the builder and my engineer in 3 days. How should I move forward with this? I.e. get it resolved so that both parties can move on from this. At this stage of the project the builder has been paid most of what he has been due, but I don't want to pay anymore until he promises to rectify the dangerous job he has done. Your advice would be much appreciated.

banie01

You have engaged an engineer.
He was a little foolish to proffer a compliance opinion based on images rather than full inspection.
Wait until he inspects the work and gives a full opinion.
If there's an issue, your builder should rectify and ensure compliance.
If he doesn't, your contract should have a settlement/arbitration clause.
Use it.

There's no point in going nuclear until you have a post inspection opinion from the engineer.

mickdw

ridgewooder wrote: »

Hey all,

So my house is going through a renovation at the moment and I'm finding out that my builder has been doing a less than satisfactory job on an RSJ for what was a load bearing wall.

After engaging with an engineer last week, my understanding is that the final result is very worrying and ultimately what I now have is a house that's not safe to be inside.

Hiring a builder for a project like this is never easy. However after getting 3 quotes and doing what I believed to be the necessary due diligence, I selected a Swords based builder (originally found on pickapro) based on conversations I had with him, several visits to my property and a price that I felt was reasonable.

The majority of what has been done so far seems good - I.e. re-wiring, plumbing, insulation. Much of which was done by other professionals he works with. However the most significant job he had to do (which was the RSJ) has not been done well. The plan was to open up the living room and kitchen. He has done so, and there is an RSJ now in place. However the RSJ is being held up by blocks on either side. Some of the blocks on one side were crumbling, so the RSJ is now sitting on partial vertical beam which is resting on original blocks from the building.

When I saw this, I asked him if it was safe and he assured me it was. I have since found out that a certificate of compliance is required (my bad, I should have known that from the beginning). When I shared images with the engineer (in order to seek the cert), he advised me he would be very worried about the current installation.

So my question is - I am meeting the builder and my engineer in 3 days. How should I move forward with this? I.e. get it resolved. At this stage of the project the builder has been paid most of what he has been due, but I refuse to pay anymore until he promises to rectify the dangerous job he has done. Your advice would be much appreciated.

You will find builder will back down pretty quickly if Engineer is standing in front of him telling him his work is unsafe. That is, unless you have paid the builder more than the value of works completed. In that case, he may walk off the job.

CoBo55

Fair play to you you've done what you can and didn't accept any rubbish talk from the builder. It's really a matter of seeing how this meeting between the three of you goes and work from there. It's down to the engineer from here and everything will depend on his seal of approval.

ridgewooder

Thanks for responses so far. I'd love to share pics, but I can't on this site

ridgewooder

I think it was a case of that the close-up pics worried the engineer so much, that he had to comment negatively on them.

martinr5232

I wouldnt have much faith in that builder either thats shocking work.

mickdw

Jesus - get Engineer to write to you confirming that its neither structurally suitable or indeed safe without immediate temporary support.

Given that there was a load bearing wall there, its likely that its simply a matter of taking the vertical steel post all the way to the structural subfloor with a large base plate fitted and some form of horizontal tie back to prevent side to side movement of the beam.
Engineer will advise obviously but current setup in not a runner whatsoever.

The Continental Op

Thats just awful. Had to be done by someone with no understanding of what they were doing as its not that difficult to get right.

But I don't think its that difficult or that an expensive a job to fix.

AndrewJRenko

Is this your builder, by any chance?

Sparkey84

a very expensive fix if all was covered up and work was done, your diligence as already stated will pay off.

CoBo55

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is this your builder, by any chance?

Ahh Mister o Reilly... He was brilliant. Stubbs was the good guy.

blackvalley

mickdw wrote: »

Jesus - get Engineer to write to you confirming that its neither structurally suitable or indeed safe without immediate temporary support.

Given that there was a load bearing wall there, its likely that its simply a matter of taking the vertical steel post all the way to the structural subfloor with a large base plate fitted and some form of horizontal tie back to prevent side to side movement of the beam.
Engineer will advise obviously but current setup in not a runner whatsoever.

Just curious but would it not work if builder removed vertical steel section and replaced it with concrete blocks .
Actually the project would be much neater if builder had cut the ceiling joices and put the RSJ into the ceiling using joice hangers.
Had a similar job done a few years back and i THINK that is what they done as we now have a completely flat ceiling with no obvious boxed in RSJ.

mickdw

blackvalley wrote: »

Just curious but would it not work if builder removed vertical steel section and replaced it with concrete blocks .
Actually the project would be much neater if builder had cut the ceiling joices and put the RSJ into the ceiling using joice hangers.
Had a similar job done a few years back and i THINK that is what they done as we now have a completely flat ceiling with no obvious boxed in RSJ.

There is not enough wall beside the beam to allow blockwork to support it imo.
If it was a block on flat section of wall, it would likely be ok but not on a 100mm block wall with a free standing end.
Cutting the beam up into the joists is a more expensive job and in some situations may not be so easy to achieve. A plate can be welded to base of beam, wider than the beam itself to carry the joists as opposed to using hangers.

They either cut your beam into the joists or didnt bother with one at all!

ridgewooder

CoBo55 wrote: »

Ahh Mister o Reilly... He was brilliant. Stubbs was the good guy.

Actually.. I can't remember that show? You're man looks familiar though

Sleeper12

ridgewooder wrote:

Actually.. I can't remember that show? You're man looks familiar though

Rashers Tierney

blackvalley

mickdw wrote: »

They either cut your beam into the joists or didnt bother with one at all!

Theres certainly a substantial RSJ up there all right . I helped them carry it from the truck and my back hasnt been the same since.

SEPT 23 1989

At the meeting let the Engineer do the talking

Paul_Mc1988

I had a similar job done last year. Where the RSj went into the 10 inch breeze block external wall a concrete pad was installed.

The RSJ was placed on a 4inch solid block wall corner were two walls met on the internal wall and the engineer wasn't 100% happy so a goal post was also installed on this side and welded to the RSJ and bolted to the foundation.

You need an engineers cert for the house insurance for any possible issues that could arise in the future so make sure you get one.

James 007

That looks woeful alight. Looks to me if a full picture frame should of been put in place. What is the inner side of that vertical stub of steel sitting on. I assume the outer edge is sitting on 100mm inner leaf.

Stihl waters

Not a big job to put right, get the engineer to tell the builder what he wants done and keep a close eye on him

howsshenow

Get yourself a roll of airtightness tape for those windows whilst you have a chance. Diy job.
Looking forward to hearing what the fix for the beam is.

Bullocks

Not right but not a big job to rectify at this stage. Some boyo to expect the engineer to pass it that way.
If he had stripped out the old bad block work and built new back up using a pad stone either end under the rsj it wouldn't have drawn attention at all.
Our engineer wants any RSJs painted with intumescent paint now aswell as a fire proof measure

BryanF

Inverted ‘T’ shaped steel pushed up flush with ceiling, joists sitting on bottom flange - subject to eng design etc

I'm not being sarcastic, but what is the actual issue with this set up?

Assuming the vertical 'stump' of steel was welded onto the RSJ, the RSJ would be fairly well stuck in place would it not? I mean, it doesn't look to have wiggle room, and it appears like (in the close-up photo) there are pipes and such coming from the ceiling on the right, so presumably the block along there will be built back up again, further locking the RSJ into place?

The Continental Op

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not being sarcastic, but what is the actual issue with this set up?

Assuming the vertical 'stump' of steel was welded onto the RSJ, the RSJ would be fairly well stuck in place would it not? I mean, it doesn't look to have wiggle room, and it appears like (in the close-up photo) there are pipes and such coming from the ceiling on the right, so presumably the block along there will be built back up again, further locking the RSJ into place?

The bearing surface on the stumps on the top of the blocks. Just like a pastry cutter.

ridgewooder

ridgewooder wrote: »

Actually.. I can't remember that show? You're man looks familiar though

Fawlty Towers.

EDIT: The pics seem to have been removed - was gonna have another look.

mickdw

The Continental Op wrote: »

The bearing surface on the stumps on the top of the blocks. Just like a pastry cutter.

Yep and overall stability also

The Continental Op

Plus the the beam is just sitting on the pastry cutter. Just looked again and hadn't realised they were not welded or bolted together.