Moving septic tank, for extension

NewClareman

Hi,
We are downsizing and about to go sale agreed on a small 70sqm house in rural Limerick, built 20 years ago. It is on a 1/2 acre elevated site, with the nearest border about 6m away. The nearest house is 20m away with only open fields to the rear.
We would intend building an extension at the rear, under the 40sq planning limit. The septic tank is only 5m from the rear of the house and would have to be moved further back. I'm wondering how big a job this would be and likely cost. If I thought it was too big an issue I'd pull out now, as the house as it is is too small.

The following is all the info I have:

My engineer has certified that the house is substantially compliant with planning permission. (There are minor variations, including the location of the septic tank.)
The tank is not registered and the vendor will only certify that the septic tank and percolation area are entirely within the boundary of the site. (My engineer is not concerned with its current location.)
The proposed location would be entirely within the site with a minimum of 4m clearance from the percolation area to the boundary wall.
We would like to replace the septic tank with a similar precast concrete unit.

Thanks in advance, I have already read the many threads on this issue...

db

You will need an environmental assessment and planning permission to change the septic tank. I would also be concerned about your engineer not red flagging the existing tank if it is in the wrong location.

Indestructable

Without knowing much about the house or site I'll just let you know our experience.

We wanted to replace a tank that was put in the 80s. Essentially just a precast concrete tank. Got a very reputable company out to do the inspection and price. The quote was 13,000 euro, our percolation area and soil were totally unsuitable for a standard system.

ASFAIK just getting a precast concrete tank nowadays is unlikely, it'll be a treatment system with aerators/pumps/media. It's definitely doable, but could be pricier than you'd think.

Sparkey84

hiya do you know if it is a septic tank ( by old definition) or a waste water treatment system? i do not know for sure which would have been fitted 20 years ago. if it was an old style septic tank i would not go to bother of digging it up. just disconnect, fill it in and start again with one hole only, and put a waste water treatment system in it. if planning permission involved i have no idea if they would let you put down an old system even if moving existing.

costs are really varied on project like this, know a guy who fitted a new system for 7k but that was material cost and digger rent only. labour was all self done and he had own tractor/trailer, disposed of own waste clay. on the other hand i would not expect any change out of 15k if paying labour and all incorporated costs

Sparkey84

Indestructable wrote: »

Without knowing much about the house or site I'll just let you know our experience.

We wanted to replace a tank that was put in the 80s. Essentially just a precast concrete tank. Got a very reputable company out to do the inspection and price. The quote was 13,000 euro, our percolation area and soil were totally unsuitable for a standard system.

ASFAIK just getting a precast concrete tank nowadays is unlikely, it'll be a treatment system with aerators/pumps/media. It's definitely doable, but could be pricier than you'd think.

wow 13k a good price if that was for the fancy soil polishing filter like i had to get.

Indestructable

Sparkey84 wrote: »

wow 13k a good price if that was for the fancy soil polishing filter like i had to get.

Yep, to be fair to the fella that quoted he did his very best to keep the price down.
Ended up getting connected to mains, which I thought wouldn't be possible, for about half that in total.

Sparkey84

Indestructable wrote: »

Yep, to be fair to the fella that quoted he did his very best to keep the price down.
Ended up getting connected to mains, which I thought wouldn't be possible, for about half that in total.

ah that's lucky, i love living rural and would not change it but septic tank is the worst part. i have had problems with aerator pumps and sludge build up and i only kinda learning as i go.

NewClareman

db wrote: »

You will need an environmental assessment and planning permission to change the septic tank. I would also be concerned about your engineer not red flagging the existing tank if it is in the wrong location.

The house has been surveyed by two architects and an engineer. They are all satisfied that it broadly inline with planning and that nothing arises that would concern them. All state professionally that it is substantially compliant with planning permission. This is because there have been alterations to a door and two windows, at the side and back, from the approved plans and the septic tank is in a slightly different location. However, the engineer confirmed that there were no changes that he would consider material.

I'm prepared for an environmental assessment and needing planning permission. What I'm prepared for is if it's going to cost much more than €10k, I'd prefer to walk away.

NewClareman

Indestructable wrote: »

Without knowing much about the house or site I'll just let you know our experience.

We wanted to replace a tank that was put in the 80s. Essentially just a precast concrete tank. Got a very reputable company out to do the inspection and price. The quote was 13,000 euro, our percolation area and soil were totally unsuitable for a standard system.

ASFAIK just getting a precast concrete tank nowadays is unlikely, it'll be a treatment system with aerators/pumps/media. It's definitely doable, but could be pricier than you'd think.

I suppose the nub of my question is whether planning will insist on using a treatment systems, if a septic tank is being moved. If so we'd get a local guy with a digger to do the main digging work. The idea would be to have the soil pipe ready for the contractor doing the extension. There is plenty of scope on the site to use any spare soil.

A second question is, if we needed to get the current standard system fitted, what could drive up costs, or delay the move. If the quote came in at under €10k we go ahead, as the location suits us. The real killer would be if we decided to go ahead and then some problem arose that delayed everything. If anyone can recommend a company that would have a look, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for all the responses.

Sparkey84

NewClareman wrote: »

I suppose the nub of my question is whether planning will insist on using a treatment systems, if a septic tank is being moved. If so we'd get a local guy with a digger to do the main digging work. The idea would be to have the soil pipe ready for the contractor doing the extension. There is plenty of scope on the site to use any spare soil.

A second question is, if we needed to get the current standard system fitted, what could drive up costs, or delay the move. If the quote came in at under €10k we go ahead, as the location suits us. The real killer would be if we decided to go ahead and then some problem arose that delayed everything. If anyone can recommend a company that would have a look, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for all the responses.

so anything going into ground now will have to be a waste water treatment plant. as complex as it sounds it is just a concrete box with more chambers. one pipe in for waste obe pipe out for water to perculation, it will need some steel wire armour cable for electricity. find out if your existing perculation area is deemed suitable as if you only have to dig a hole and lay on two pipes the work could be handy enough.

Sparkey84

its worth mentioning when i had my tank delivered the driver asked if there was an engineer taking responsibility. i wanted him to just put the tank in the hole and he was not happy. i had to speak to his boss and acknowledge they had no liability about levels or position or water flow etx. if the tank had been an inch too high the waste would not flow in and back up cause a stink so to speak 🀣🀣

i set the levels myself and was happy to take on that accountability. saved a fortune by doing so but some slight risk involved.

NewClareman

Sparkey84 wrote: »

its worth mentioning when i had my tank delivered the driver asked if there was an engineer taking responsibility. i wanted him to just put the tank in the hole and he was not happy. i had to speak to his boss and acknowledge they had no liability about levels or position or water flow etx. if the tank had been an inch too high the waste would not flow in and back up cause a stink so to speak ����

i set the levels myself and was happy to take on that accountability. saved a fortune by doing so but some slight risk involved.

I have a architect, who specialises in extensions, lined up to draw up plans. I assume he can also consider the levels. I don't want to engage him, until I'm certain I'm going ahead - hence this thread.

In my case the road level, and house, is substantially higher that the rear of the site. I'm taking it that a drop of maybe 3m will be grand. Unfortunately, I'd need a whole new percolation area. I don't see it as a problem as it leads on to an open field, there are no wells and we will have mains water. I checked the site map and the existing percolation system could be used.


Going by what you're saying, the delivery guy could just drop the septic tank in, if the hole was ready.

A few questions, if you don't mind:
Who did you use?
How much did the tank cost?
How difficult was it to drop the tank, into the hole?

In our case the lorry would have to go down the slope at the side of the house, which is just grass.
If he was willing to do that, it would make things a lot easier.

rayjdav

Planning will not necessarily require a WWTS, depending on County. Check what your CDP says. Some councils still permit septic tanks, depending on the Site Suitability Report.
About doing it yourself, a grant of Planning usually insists on a cert of compliance on install from an Arch/Eng. to say it is installed correctly. If you ever have to sell up and this compliance conditions are not on file, you will find yourself in a whole heap of s**t, literally. The fact that these things are not cheap it is obvious that if your not sure of what you are doing, you need someone who does otherwise it WILL come back to haunt you...
If you are planning on building another extension, make sure you can fit this in as well as the tank/percolation area. You say your site is only 1/2 acre. The EPA 2010 Manual has the separation distances you will need to adhere to.

NewClareman

rayjdav wrote: »

Planning will not necessarily require a WWTS, depending on County. Check what your CDP says. Some councils still permit septic tanks, depending on the Site Suitability Report.

What I would want to do is move the septic tank back from the house, but reuse the percolation area. The percolation area is at the rear of the site with the nearest edge 20m from the house. There is enough room to move the septic tank back, to maintain 7m from the house. It is built to NSAI SR.6 1991. Does this make any difference?

rayjdav wrote: »

About doing it yourself, a grant of Planning usually insists on a cert of compliance on install from an Arch/Eng. to say it is installed correctly.

Should I be insisting on a cert of compliance from the current vendor?

The intent would be for this house to "see us out" with no further work, once the extension is built. Having said that, I have an architect lined up for the extension and would expect that he would include the septic tank work in his compliance.

As for the 1\2 acre, I wish it were less.
Hopefully our grandson will like using the lawnmower.

Sparkey84

NewClareman wrote: »

I have a architect, who specialises in extensions, lined up to draw up plans. I assume he can also consider the levels. I don't want to engage him, until I'm certain I'm going ahead - hence this thread.

In my case the road level, and house, is substantially higher that the rear of the site. I'm taking it that a drop of maybe 3m will be grand. Unfortunately, I'd need a whole new percolation area. I don't see it as a problem as it leads on to an open field, there are no wells and we will have mains water. Going by what you're saying, the delivery guy could just drop the septic tank in, if the hole was ready.

A few questions, if you don't mind:

Who did you use?
How much did the tank cost?
How difficult was it to drop the tank, into the hole?

In our case the lorry would have to go down the slope at the side of the house, which is just grass.
If he was willing to do that, it would make things a lot easier.

i used a crowd called biocrete. very good service, much better quality of tank than a competitors tank i researched, can not recomend highly enough but based in co wexford so may not suit
the tank (waste water treatment system) cost about 4k in 2012 if i recollect correctly. that included aerator pump and waste pump. i have a raised bed perculation bed.
whatever supplier you choose will give you a very accurate distance down to the mm of the height from the bottom of the tank to the the bottom of the waste input pipe. that becomes your primary data point. you ensure the bottom of the hole is level, flatand at exactly the right height. dig about 4in deeper and then fill up with stones gravel raked flat to have solid base and be sure tank won't dip or lean in any surprise direction.
the truck will have a on board crane but reach will be limited and driving down a grass hill might be problematic. when i got priced for tank delivery into the hole was included as long as hole easily accessible within 3m of parking. you would need to check that out,

rayjdav

You may not get to re-use the existing percolation area. If you are upgrading, you need planning and a new site test will be carried out and that will determine the size/type/location of percolation area. The exst level to the perc area distribution box might not work with the outlet from the new system.
A cert of compliance from the current vendor, little chance of getting that tbh. Unless a professional oversaw the install of the original system and gave a cert at the time, near impossible for someone now to say that it was installed as per planning.

ostrich kildare

If you have to move it, contact local.council for the restrictions of location of tank and percolating area. "If" you have space. Then consider the cost. I guess that it's well over 10k. Environmental assessments, planning applications, engineer certs, diggers, rock breakers, fitters, electricity supply and certification, buying lorry loads of clean stone, disposal of waste sub-soil etc.

NewClareman

ostrich kildare wrote: »

If you have to move it, contact local.council for the restrictions of location of tank and percolating area. "If" you have space. Then consider the cost. I guess that it's well over 10k. Environmental assessments, planning applications, engineer certs, diggers, rock breakers, fitters, electricity supply and certification, buying lorry loads of clean stone, disposal of waste sub-soil etc.

Not sure what to do, now, tbh. I don't have space to change the percolation area and keep the edge 20m from the house, so that's a non runner. I could live with moving the septic tank, only, if that would suffice. The house is right beside family, with no other options nearby, otherwise I'd have already walked away. Having said that, it is simply too small, as it is.
I checked the location of the existing septic tank. It is exactly 7m from the back wall of the house, slap bang in the middle. The engineer I hired said that I could build at the back, without moving the tank. I specifically asked about the building regulations and he said that it was fine. If I can do this, I can live with it.
However, I have my doubts about building within, say, 2m of the septic tank, without planning. I don't want to end up with a house that's unsellable. This is not currently a consideration, but who knows what the future holds. If either of use were to end up there on our own, we might want to move, e.g. to a retirement village. If anyone has any solid info, on building within the 40 sqm limit, I'd be grateful.

BryanF

What’s the plot area?

NewClareman

BryanF wrote: »

What’s the plot area?

1/2 acre almost exactly.

listermint

Indestructable wrote: »

Without knowing much about the house or site I'll just let you know our experience.

We wanted to replace a tank that was put in the 80s. Essentially just a precast concrete tank. Got a very reputable company out to do the inspection and price. The quote was 13,000 euro, our percolation area and soil were totally unsuitable for a standard system.

ASFAIK just getting a precast concrete tank nowadays is unlikely, it'll be a treatment system with aerators/pumps/media. It's definitely doable, but could be pricier than you'd think.

Any grants available for upgrading your system like that ?

NewClareman

listermint wrote: »

Any grants available for upgrading your system like that ?

Not in this case, as the septic tank was never registered...

listermint

NewClareman wrote: »

Not in this case, as the septic tank was never registered...

So if tank is registered you can then avail of upgrade grants. Within criteria.

Just thinking ours is probably as old as house but was registered by previous owner.

NewClareman

listermint wrote: »

So if tank is registered you can then avail of upgrade grants. Within criteria.

Just thinking ours is probably as old as house but was registered by previous owner.

To be considered for a grant the treatment system requiring attention must have been registered by the owner by 1st February 2013, or in the case of treatment systems constructed or installed after this date, registration must have been completed within 90 days of connection.

finbarrk

If it was me, I would just plough ahead and get a new hole dug, install an ordinary tank and say nothing to anyone. You said that the existing percolation area is good to use. Save yourself lots of €'s.

BryanF

finbarrk wrote: »

If it was me, I would just plough ahead and get a new hole dug, install an ordinary tank and say nothing to anyone. You said that the existing percolation area is good to use. Save yourself lots of €'s.

Apart from the fact that what you’re suggesting is contrary to planning & environmental law, the location of the current septic tank is likely on file with the council from the 20 year application, so chances are as part of any extension planning permission the septic tank will come up as an issue.

Mod note: as per forum charter we obey the law in this forum

db

NewClareman wrote: »

The house has been surveyed by two architects and an engineer. They are all satisfied that it broadly inline with planning and that nothing arises that would concern them. All state professionally that it is substantially compliant with planning permission. This is because there have been alterations to a door and two windows, at the side and back, from the approved plans and the septic tank is in a slightly different location. However, the engineer confirmed that there were no changes that he would consider material.

I'm prepared for an environmental assessment and needing planning permission. What I'm prepared for is if it's going to cost much more than €10k, I'd prefer to walk away.

Ask one of the architects how he would suggest enlarging the house without moving the septic tank. Can you extend in any direction other than towards the septic tank? With a small house in a 1/2 acre sure there must be more free space to either side or the front.

NewClareman

BryanF wrote: »

Apart from the fact that what you’re suggesting is contrary to planning & environmental law, the location of the current septic tank is likely on file with the council from the 20 year application, so chances are as part of any extension planning permission the septic tank will come up as an issue.

I want to extend at the rear, within the 40sqm limit. All I want is a small sun room and a utility room with a loo off same. The back of the house is facing south east, so if I extend at right angles I'll create a sheltered space for a patio at the rear of the house at that should have sun, most of the day. If I have to put in a treatment plant, so be it.

BryanF wrote: »

Mod note: as per forum charter we obey the law in this forum

I've got this far without breaking any laws, don't intend leaving issues for our children.
Have you any suggestions on how best to engage with Limerick Coco? I had a second engineer, a friend, look at the site on an informal basis. He doesn't expect any issue. There is a good fall away from the house, and from the percolation area. My fear is that, if I take the wrong approach, I could create an unnecessary problem.

NewClareman

db wrote: »

Ask one of the architects how he would suggest enlarging the house without moving the septic tank. Can you extend in any direction other than towards the septic tank? With a small house in a 1/2 acre sure there must be more free space to either side or the front.

There is space at each side. However, I want to extend at the back, where the septic tank is, as this is where the sun is.

BryanF

NewClareman wrote: »

I want to extend at the rear, within the 40sqm limit. All I want is a small sun room and a utility room with a loo off same. The back of the house is facing south east, so if I extend at right angles I'll create a sheltered space for a patio at the rear of the house at that should have sun, most of the day. If I have to put in a treatment plant, so be it.


I've got this far without breaking any laws, don't intend leaving issues for our children.
Have you any suggestions on how best to engage with Limerick Coco? I had a second engineer, a friend, look at the site on an informal basis. He doesn't expect any issue. There is a good fall away from the house, and from the percolation area. My fear is that, if I take the wrong approach, I could create an unnecessary problem.

engage a designer to prepare your drawings, show new treatment/perc area with report by eng and submit for planning (pre-planning if necessary)