Discrimination against dairy beef

Bass Reeves

Just this week the Dept has launched two schemes. The Suckler BEEP scheme and the dairy calf weighing scheme. The. BEEP is funded with 40 million and an average Suckler farmers 20-25 cows can draw 1700-2100 euro. The limit is a hundred cow+ cal pairings allowing a farmer to draw a max of 8k.you can get this if you opt to weight cows and calves as well as weanling meal feeding and fecal egg count test.

The poor relation of dairy calf to beef gets 20 euro/ calf for 20 calves. Max is 400 euro for a calf producer. Maximum number if calves that can be funded is 250 calves and as most calf rearers will have higher numbers than that the data is useless as you are not getting a complete herd analysis. Ya you could say it's handy money but do is the Suckler weighing scheme.


I have noting against the Suckler weighing and beef farmers need every penny they get. However at present we need every bit of data we can get regarding dairy beef production. In theory both schemes are supposed to gather data to improve beef production. The BEEP is not running a few years and I imagine most of the data needed is collected. The dairy beef data we are collecting is useless and the payments an insult to calf rearers.

Hard Knocks

It’s €50 to weigh a cow & calf pair for first 10 pairs €40 (€20 each) for all remaining pairs
The pneumonia vaccination and dung samples really only cover cost
I do agree that we need more data
We will have calf weights and final kill weights, why not store weights too

Mooooo

You could hire out the scales for the day for 50 euro?

patsy_mccabe

Measuring carbon footprint is also a benefit from these schemes. This may become more relevant in the years
ahead.

blue5000

Bass have you ever weighed sucklers? Believe me we earn every cent.

cute geoge

does it have to a registered scales or something to weigh calves for the dairy beef and what age is this job to be done .

Hard Knocks

cute geoge wrote: »

does it have to a registered scales or something to weigh calves for the dairy beef and what age is this job to be done .

They have to be over 12 weeks

franglan

blue5000 wrote: »

Bass have you ever weighed sucklers? Believe me we earn every cent.

We did it last year on 10 cows and calves. Get them in weighed and out again in 5 hours. Rented a big scales let them stand on it. Reletively easy money.

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

It’s €50 to weigh a cow & calf pair for first 10 pairs €40 (€20 each) for all remaining pairs
The pneumonia vaccination and dung samples really only cover cost
I do agree that we need more data
We will have calf weights and final kill weights, why not store weights too

You only have to take dung samples of ten cows no matter how many you have. Yes they all have to be tested. 30 euro or for meal feeding or vaccination. Either is an advantage. I vaccinate all stores going into the shed for IBR as over last ten years natural immunity is not as strong as it traditionally was due tomorrow large scale vacination especially in dairy herds

Bass Reeves

Mooooo wrote: »

You could hire out the scales for the day for 50 euro?

It's the same for both dairy and suckler's. You can even hire it between 2-3 lads and it works out at about 20 each. The level of funding of the dairy program is the issue

Bass Reeves

blue5000 wrote: »

Bass have you ever weighed sucklers? Believe me we earn every cent.

Weighted Suckler bullocks a couple times they jump around a bit more but facilitate decide on how hard

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

They have to be over 12 weeks

And in your herd for 8 days. AFAIK you can get paid on bought in dairy weanlings if you want to do that

Grueller

franglan wrote: »

We did it last year on 10 cows and calves. Get them in weighed and out again in 5 hours. Rented a big scales let them stand on it. Reletively easy money.

Weighed 68 pairs in 5 hours last year. Got over €6k. Great scheme.

Agree 100% with Bass, but the beep scheme started as €40 per cow and calf pair in its first incarnation. If this went to €40 on say 50 calves it would be a great scheme. Maybe a top up for pneumonia vaccination before housing and we would be playing ball.

Edited to ask, will this end up in the dairy farmers pocket through increased calf prices?

Young95

franglan wrote: »

We did it last year on 10 cows and calves. Get them in weighed and out again in 5 hours. Rented a big scales let them stand on it. Reletively easy money.

How much were you charged at the time for renting the weighting’s scales ?

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

Weighed 68 pairs in 5 hours last year. Got over €6k. Great scheme.

Agree 100% with Bass, but the beep scheme started as €40 per cow and calf pair in its first incarnation. If this went to €40 on say 50 calves it would be a great scheme. Maybe a top up for pneumonia vaccination before housing and we would be playing ball.

Edited to ask, will this end up in the dairy farmers pocket through increased calf prices?

Even if they doubled and trebled the fund it would not. For dairy bred it is 20/ head for 20 stock. Most lads would be buying that minimum. 5 million is funding for 250k calves. You are not going to buy extra calves to do the task.

If it was 20/ calf for 50 calves and another 10-20/ calf for a second weighing at least 12 weeks apart.. Then it would be a decent scheme and it would gather data that would be of use. Maybe lads to vaccinate for IBR as well before housing or at second weighing for the 20 euro Inc weighing

A lad with 30-40 calves could draw 12-1600 euro. Even load it for first 20 calves and knock a 5/ head off for 30 after that.

Hard Knocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You only have to take dung samples of ten cows no matter how many you have. Yes they all have to be tested. 30 euro or for meal feeding or vaccination. Either is an advantage. I vaccinate all stores going into the shed for IBR as over last ten years natural immunity is not as strong as it traditionally was due tomorrow large scale vacination especially in dairy herds

We did the 2 vaccination option last year which came to €180 for 9 calves
Only 1 cow out of 9 had to be sampled and when you paid courier & lab fees there wasn’t much left
€90 per suckler couple may sound lots but when you take the costs there’s not much left
Selling the vaccinated weanlings made no more than the unvaccinated

Hard Knocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

And in your herd for 8 days. AFAIK you can get paid on bought in dairy weanlings if you want to do that

You’ll have to buy some calves this year

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

We did the 2 vaccination option last year which came to €180 for 9 calves
Only 1 cow out of 9 had to be sampled and when you paid courier & lab fees there wasn’t much left
€90 per suckler couple may sound lots but when you take the costs there’s not much left
Selling the vaccinated weanlings made no more than the unvaccinated

You do not have to vaccinate for everything. You vaccinate on your vets advice. I imagine IBR and Blackleg would be adequate for that.

I am not saying it's money for jam but for lads keeping there calves over the winter it is a good scheme if they have little issue over the first winter. It's vaccination or meal feeding.

My main point is the dairy scheme is very poor compared to it. You have to factor in we now are hitting two dairy bred animal in the beef system for every Suckler. We really need good data related to that

tanko

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You do not have to vaccinate for everything. You vaccinate on your vets advice. I imagine IBR and Blackleg would be adequate for that.

I am not saying it's money for jam but for lads keeping there calves over the winter it is a good scheme if they have little issue over the first winter. It's vaccination or meal feeding.

My main point is the dairy scheme is very poor compared to it. You have to factor in we now are hitting two dairy bred animal in the beef system for every Suckler. We really need good data related to that

Vaccinating for Blackleg has nothing to do with this scheme, if you're going to have a go at this scheme you could at least read the terms and conditions first.
Every calf has to be vaccinated with Boviplast or something similar which isn't cheap.
It's a good scheme but when the costs involved are taken out of the money received there's not much left.

Bass Reeves

tanko wrote: »

Vaccinating for Blackleg has nothing to do with this scheme, if you're going to have a go at this scheme you could at least read the terms and conditions first.
Every calf has to be vaccinated with Boviplast or something similar which isn't cheap.
It's a good scheme but when the costs involved are taken out of the money received there's not much left.

Read my post where did I have a go at the scheme

Hard Knocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Read my post where did I have a go at the scheme

“You do not have to vaccinate for everything. You vaccinate on your vets advice. I imagine IBR and Blackleg would be adequate for that”
Terms last time was RSP dead min 4 weeks apart with 2nd shot 2 weeks prior to weaning with a ibr shot or 1 shot intranasal with the IBR


My main point is the dairy scheme is very poor compared to it. You have to factor in we now are hitting two dairy bred animal in the beef system for every Suckler. We really need good data related to that
Technically they are the same
Dung samples are for cows, pneumonia vaccination is for when weaning to suit shippers etc
So the common is €20 per calf weighed

893bet

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You only have to take dung samples of ten cows no matter how many you have. Yes they all have to be tested. 30 euro or for meal feeding or vaccination. Either is an advantage. I vaccinate all stores going into the shed for IBR as over last ten years natural immunity is not as strong as it traditionally was due tomorrow large scale vacination especially in dairy herds

are the ten samples tested separately? I thought they were pooled and tested as a single sample for some reason.

Didn’t do it last year but have opted to do it this year.

tanko

893bet wrote: »

are the ten samples tested separately? I thought they were pooled and tested as a single sample for some reason.

Didn’t do it last year but have opted to do it this year.

The samples are pooled for testing, they're not tested separately.

TooOldBoots

They are both buIIsh1t schemes anyhow. Free data to icbf (on top of the generous Government funding) no real gain for the farmers.
The dairy beef if it was done properly would eliminate the need for the Suckler herd. Instead we have systems that don't reward best farming practices
A dairy farmer producing narrow rubbish bull calves that are only good for more or less free to export isn't much good.
Neither is a Suckler farmer who's overstocked cows incalf to oversized Bulls to try and make it pay.

maidhc

TooOldBoots wrote: »

They are both buIIsh1t schemes anyhow. Free data to icbf (on top of the generous Government funding) no real gain for the farmers.
The dairy beef if it was done properly would eliminate the need for the Suckler herd. Instead we have systems that don't reward best farming practices
A dairy farmer producing narrow rubbish bull calves that are only good for more or less free to export isn't much good.
Neither is a Suckler farmer who's overstocked cows incalf to oversized Bulls to try and make it pay.

Agree fully.

Anto_Meath

I can't see anyone who isn't involved with the Beeps bothering with the Dairy beef scheme, it is hardly worth their while for €400 or €350 if they have to rent a scales.

Base price

Oh dear - I decided not to rear dairy bull calves this year and I'm going to miss out on this windfall :eek:

franglan

Young95 wrote: »

How much were you charged at the time for renting the weighting’s scales ?

50 from local mart

richie123

Base price wrote: »

Oh dear - I decided not to rear dairy bull calves this year and I'm going to miss out on this windfall :eek:

Same here ..lots of calves reared this spring that should have being exported.
Larry is smiling.
Hes never one to be let down lol

Bass Reeves

richie123 wrote: »

Same here ..lots of calves reared this spring that should have being exported.
Larry is smiling.
Hes never one to be let down lol

Exports will have a limited influence on our calf numbers with the way cow numbers are climbing. However considering what was paid for calves if present beef prices are even maintained the margin on those calves is very limited. You want to be running an efficient operation and getting a good store price to make a margin.

The powers that be are not helping. Directing money at systems that bring more calves or maintain a very low profitability system only makes matter worse.

In another few weeks we will have IFA looking for another Beam scheme to compensate winter finishers. None of this will resolve the structural issues in Beef

farawaygrass

Instead of the ifa focusing on Lidl and Aldi they should put their effort into trying to solve the dairy calf problem. Unless there is a balance soon found between the dairy and beef farmer then there is a big problem coming down the line sooner rather than later.
Dairy calves need to be better quality but not a bigger price, and markets really need to improve for meat.
It’s in the dairy mans interest the beef man is making a twist too.
Obviously this isnt the responsibility of the ifa as such, but Any positive input would be a help.

richie123

farawaygrass wrote: »

Instead of the ifa focusing on Lidl and Aldi they should put their effort into trying to solve the dairy calf problem. Unless there is a balance soon found between the dairy and beef farmer then there is a big problem coming down the line sooner rather than later.
Dairy calves need to be better quality but not a bigger price, and markets really need to improve for meat.
It’s in the dairy mans interest the beef man is making a twist too.
Obviously this isnt the responsibility of the ifa as such, but Any positive input would be a help.

Once again typical farmers response.
Solve the dairy calf problem??
Easy solve that one ...stop giving mad money in marts for freisin calves!!!
I hate this bull**** of expecting ifa or someone else to solve the problem of the fre bull calf.
The blame directly lies at the door of clowns of farmers paying way over the odds for worthless calves.

All the calves sold this spring will die at a loss in 2 years time due to the inevitable glut that will arise.
The same farmers will block the gates at factories.

Like suck calves being trained to an electric fence constantly getting shocked then returning for another good belt.
Ill have no sympathy for them.

A better freisin calf is counterproductive also.
Simply because it means a better carcase and a heavier one.
More beef in other words and Larry is laughing.

Theres two single farm payments for a small cohort of farmers.the one in the post and the one in the mart.
Ie fools of farmers paying mad money for suck calves.

Once again when the glut comes ill have no sympathy whatsoever for them.
Larry and all dairyman who sell calves are the only ones benefiting from this situation.

farawaygrass

richie123 wrote: »

Once again typical farmers response.
Solve the dairy calf problem??
Easy solve that one ...stop giving mad money in marts for freisin calves!!!
I hate this bull**** of expecting ifa or someone else to solve the problem of the fre bull calf.
The blame directly lies at the door of clowns of farmers paying way over the odds for worthless calves.

All the calves sold this spring will die at a loss in 2 years time due to the inevitable glut that will arise.
The same farmers will block the gates at factories.

Like suck calves being trained to an electric fence constantly getting shocked then returning for another good belt.
Ill have no sympathy for them.

A better freisin calf is counterproductive also.
Simply because it means a better carcase and a heavier one.
More beef in other words and Larry is laughing.

Theres two single farm payments for a small cohort of farmers.the one in the post and the one in the mart.
Ie fools of farmers paying mad money for suck calves.

Once again when the glut comes ill have no sympathy whatsoever for them.
Larry and all dairyman who sell calves are the only ones benefiting from this situation.

I’d agree with you totally about farmers paying over the odds for calves. Can’t Argue at all about.
I don’t expect the ifa to solve the problem, but what I was saying was they should concentrate their efforts there rather this campaign.
But If you look at it from the dairy farmers side compared to the beef farmers side, they need they an outlet for their calves. If it’s weak then there will be problems.
I don’t agree with you about the quality of calf. If you look back to before quotas, I believe there was similar numbers of dairy cows as now, but calf quality was way ahead to now. This will be unpopular but if there was a good calf and a good market for the dairy calf then I wouldn’t mind sacrificing the suckler herd at all.
There needs to be a better relationship between the two sectors, all sectors really.
Government top ups like beam aren’t the answer either. I don’t think they are making farmers money, rather less of a loss or trying to break even.

richie123

farawaygrass wrote: »

I’d agree with you totally about farmers paying over the odds for calves. Can’t Argue at all about.
I don’t expect the ifa to solve the problem, but what I was saying was they should concentrate their efforts there rather this campaign.
But If you look at it from the dairy farmers side compared to the beef farmers side, they need they an outlet for their calves. If it’s weak then there will be problems.
I don’t agree with you about the quality of calf. If you look back to before quotas, I believe there was similar numbers of dairy cows as now, but calf quality was way ahead to now. This will be unpopular but if there was a good calf and a good market for the dairy calf then I wouldn’t mind sacrificing the suckler herd at all.
There needs to be a better relationship between the two sectors, all sectors really.
Government top ups like beam aren’t the answer either. I don’t think they are making farmers money, rather less of a loss or trying to break even.

I get what your saying.
We don't owe the dairyman anything.
The calf to them is just a byproduct.
Theyre just interested in milk because that's where the money is.
If the ifa were serious about improving beef farm incomes just come out with a policy of not buying worthless calves in marts.
Until we have negative bidding no beef man will turn a profit.

farawaygrass

richie123 wrote: »

I get what your saying.
We don't owe the dairyman anything.
The calf to them is just a byproduct.
Theyre just interested in milk because that's where the money is.
If the ifa were serious about improving beef farm incomes just come out with a policy of not buying worthless calves in marts.
Until we have negative bidding no beef man will turn a profit.

No we don’t owe them anything. They work hard for what they earn.
If there was no one buying them worthless calves though, what would happen them? The days of shooting calves will never be acceptable here. Look at how supermarkets are getting dairy farmers to keep their calves longer and have farmers arranged to buy them then.
I know Of one farmer, know him very well, and there is a path worn to his door every year from farmers looking to buy his calves. He runs a blue bull and his calves are super.
Bbx calves are making 450-500 in the marts.
Saying all that, there is always some guy willing to buy miserable calves for “value”.

Bass Reeves

It will be a sh!tshiw from autumn o not to mind in two years time. However Richie there is a combination of events needed to turn a profit at beef. We need to reduce numbers. How it achieved is immaterial. But we definitely need a look at policy.

I agree that farmers need to seriously co sider what they pay for calves. However a better quality calf is not necessarily a heavier carcase. Biggest issue with some of the calves is growth rate. Grass is 15-20% of ration. We need cattle that will put on weight cheaply on grass.

50-60% of the beef that is produced is off either Suckler calves heavily subsidized or beef produced off large amounts of ration during the winter that BEAM or simar schemes subsidizes. It impossible go send market signals in that case.

We need to stop subsidizing production and start some form of reduction subsidity. 5-8k of a BEAM type scheme will encourage lads to fill sheds again next Autumn.

richie123

farawaygrass wrote: »

No we don’t owe them anything. They work hard for what they earn.
If there was no one buying them worthless calves though, what would happen them? The days of shooting calves will never be acceptable here. Look at how supermarkets are getting dairy farmers to keep their calves longer and have farmers arranged to buy them then.
I know Of one farmer, know him very well, and there is a path worn to his door every year from farmers looking to buy his calves. He runs a blue bull and his calves are super.
Bbx calves are making 450-500 in the marts.
Saying all that, there is always some guy willing to buy miserable calves for “value”.

Worthless calves are not our responsibility and anyone who buys them deserves the polling they'll get from factories in 2.5 years time.
I can almost hear the whinging now.

Were not responsible for the dairymans rubbish fullstop.
I gave up rearing calves and I will go back at it when prices reflect reality.

richie123

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It will be a sh!tshiw from autumn o not to mind in two years time. However Richie there is a combination of events needed to turn a profit at beef. We need to reduce numbers. How it achieved is immaterial. But we definitely need a look at policy.

I agree that farmers need to seriously co sider what they pay for calves. However a better quality calf is not necessarily a heavier carcase. Biggest issue with some of the calves is growth rate. Grass is 15-20% of ration. We need cattle that will put on weight cheaply on grass.

50-60% of the beef that is produced is off either Suckler calves heavily subsidized or beef produced off large amounts of ration during the winter that BEAM or simar schemes subsidizes. It impossible go send market signals in that case.

We need to stop subsidizing production and start some form of reduction subsidity. 5-8k of a BEAM type scheme will encourage lads to fill sheds again next Autumn.

Bass the policy shift needed is simple.

Stop buying them.

Its not complicated.

Your far more profitable running much reduced numbers spend as little as possible reduce fertiliser and no meal.. until the situation corrects itself.

I would agree with you also on a reduction subsidy.

Base price

richie123 wrote: »

Same here ..lots of calves reared this spring that should have being exported.
Larry is smiling.
Hes never one to be let down lol

Lots of poor quality calves with Jersey bloodlines reared too and still no sign of the dam's breed code on the mart board/online.

Base price

I just had a look at the DAFM weekly beef kill and the calf slaughter numbers are up by 6 calves relative to last year so it appears that there are a lot more poorer quality calves been reared vis a vie the number of dairy calves born this year.

Larry/et al are laughing on their way to the bank :rolleyes:

richie123

Base price wrote: »

I just had a look at the DAFM weekly beef kill and the calf slaughter numbers are up by 6 calves relative to last year so it appears that there are a lot more poorer quality calves been reared vis a vie the number of dairy calves born this year.

Larry/et al are laughing on their way to the bank :rolleyes:

And farmers bought them.in there thousands.
I'll have no sympathy when the next factory blockades happen.

Hard Knocks

richie123 wrote: »

And farmers bought them.in there thousands.
I'll have no sympathy when the next factory blockades happen.

I know your point, but don’t think it’s as simple as that
As Base Price pointed out earlier calves were bought for children this year (cheaper than a dog), we did it.
Lots did it as children themselves and thought it could be something to keep their children active during the lockdown
As you said lots of money given with some poor genetics bought, it’s been said here that it can be hard to tell the quality buying calves at 14-21 days old, but at 2-3 months it’s obvious
With the push for more people to rare dairy calves this could cause a massive backfire, as these young rearer’s will be burnt and exit and a beef price collapse too.
I hope for all our sakes (farmers) this doesn’t happen as I think the consequences will be painful

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Exports will have a limited influence on our calf numbers with the way cow numbers are climbing. However considering what was paid for calves if present beef prices are even maintained the margin on those calves is very limited. You want to be running an efficient operation and getting a good store price to make a margin.

The powers that be are not helping. Directing money at systems that bring more calves or maintain a very low profitability system only makes matter worse.

In another few weeks we will have IFA looking for another Beam scheme to compensate winter finishers. None of this will resolve the structural issues in Beef

IFA is a lobby organisation, that's what they do, was it €150m they put in beef farmers pocket last year

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

IFA is a lobby organisation, that's what they do, was it €150m they put in beef farmers pocket last year

Incorrect

alps

wrangler wrote: »

IFA is a lobby organisation, that's what they do, was it €150m they put in beef farmers pocket last year

If they'd claim it..

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Incorrect

What else would you say.

richie123

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I know your point, but don’t think it’s as simple as that
As Base Price pointed out earlier calves were bought for children this year (cheaper than a dog), we did it.
Lots did it as children themselves and thought it could be something to keep their children active during the lockdown
As you said lots of money given with some poor genetics bought, it’s been said here that it can be hard to tell the quality buying calves at 14-21 days old, but at 2-3 months it’s obvious
With the push for more people to rare dairy calves this could cause a massive backfire, as these young rearer’s will be burnt and exit and a beef price collapse too.
I hope for all our sakes (farmers) this doesn’t happen as I think the consequences will be painful

Ah that accounted very little of the overall calves bought.
I know men myself that buy calves every no matter how much of a polling they get.
There the lads im talking about could buy 2 or 300 calves.
Give out about the beef price then.

Fcking clowns.theres no nice way to say this.
They deserve the polling they get.
It ****s it up for everyone else then with glut that arises.

Less is more lads I wish beef men would begin to realise that.