Sand and Gravel haulage via Tractor

Slackbolts

Hi all, long time reader first time poster.

Just an idea that dawned on me today was to start sand and gravel haulage out of quarries etc to sites across Dublin (as you’d see hundreds of 8 wheeler rigid lorries doing so day in day out) with a tractor (Fastrac & Dump Trailer) utilising the cheaper diesel, cheaper road tax and no tachograph etc.

Any idea on if this would be feasible or any stumbling blocks I might come across.

Apologies if I’ve posted in the wrong section.

Slackbolts

maestroamado

Slackbolts wrote: »

Hi all, long time reader first time poster.

Just an idea that dawned on me today was to start sand and gravel haulage out of quarries etc to sites across Dublin (as you’d see hundreds of 8 wheeler rigid lorries doing so day in day out) with a tractor (Fastrac & Dump Trailer) utilising the cheaper diesel, cheaper road tax and no tachograph etc.

Any idea on if this would be feasible or any stumbling blocks I might come across.

Apologies if I’ve posted in the wrong section.
.

Slackbolts

I doubt this be an option around Dublin as you need use motorway and tractors not allowed on these...

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

I doubt this be an option around Dublin as you need use motorway and tractors not allowed on these...

Incorrect, most modern tractors have a top speed of 50km/h which is the minimum required speed on motorways once in the left lane, fastrac has a 70km/h speed limit which is well In excess of the minimum requirement.

Thanks for the reply

the_pen_turner

maestroamado wrote: »

I doubt this be an option around Dublin as you need use motorway and tractors not allowed on these...

most tracters are allowed on the motorway. fastrac would be able to break the speed limit on lots of the motorways in dublin

the_pen_turner

Slackbolts wrote: »

Hi all, long time reader first time poster.

Just an idea that dawned on me today was to start sand and gravel haulage out of quarries etc to sites across Dublin (as you’d see hundreds of 8 wheeler rigid lorries doing so day in day out) with a tractor (Fastrac & Dump Trailer) utilising the cheaper diesel, cheaper road tax and no tachograph etc.

Any idea on if this would be feasible or any stumbling blocks I might come across.

Apologies if I’ve posted in the wrong section.

Slackbolts

cheap fuel is for agri use not comercial,

Bonzo Delaney

I think the fast tracks are allowed on motorways
But the stumbling block I see is getting the unit around housing estates delivering loads to extension builders
Always tought there be a window for a small bottle mixer and half load deliveries of sand and gravel

Slackbolts

the_pen_turner wrote: »

cheap fuel is for agri use not comercial,

Any tractor that any of the big plant hire/Civils are using at present hardly has pump diesel in it do they, would be very surprised?

the_pen_turner

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

I think the fast tracks are allowed on motorways
But the stumbling block I see is getting the unit around housing estates delivering loads to extension builders
Always tought there be a window for a small bottle mixer and half load deliveries of sand and gravel

you see those out foreign . basically a small bottle on a flat bed small ridged . probably bring 4 meters i would guess. im supprised we dont have them

What would your insurance policy say?

Slackbolts

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

I think the fast tracks are allowed on motorways
But the stumbling block I see is getting the unit around housing estates delivering loads to extension builders
Always tought there be a window for a small bottle mixer and half load deliveries of sand and gravel

Your right to be clear I know for a fact the tractor and trailer on the motorway would not be an issue, I wouldn’t be too worried about manoeuvrability.

the_pen_turner

Slackbolts wrote: »

Any tractor that any of the big plant hire/Civils are using at present hardly has pump diesel in it do they, would be very surprised?

its not unhear of for tracters to be dipped to see if they are using agri. a few down here were done for it a few years back if i remember corectly

Slackbolts

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What would your insurance policy say?

That’s what I’m here for, I know big firms such as Shannon valley have tractors on the road, I’m guessing t would be a fleet policy.

Slackbolts

the_pen_turner wrote: »

its not unhear of for tracters to be dipped to see if they are using agri. a few down here were done for it a few years back if i remember corectly

I wasn’t aware, food for thought.

maestroamado

Slackbolts wrote: »

Incorrect, most modern tractors have a top speed of 50km/h which is the minimum required speed on motorways once in the left lane, fastrac has a 70km/h speed limit which is well In excess of the minimum requirement.

Thanks for the reply

I thought tractors and slow moving vehicles (like my derbi 50cc) not allowed.
Still 50k per hour too slow on motorway too slow for me and dangerous.
Normal traffic 100kph and you max 50, loaded likely 40...
Buy a big rig and make serious money... i get you good deal....

gctest50

Slackbolts wrote: »

Any tractor that any of the big plant hire/Civils are using at present hardly has pump diesel in it do they, would be very surprised?

Bad idea to base a business on a bit of dodgy diesel fraud

Anyway you'll get reported for green every week

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

I thought tractors and slow moving vehicles (like my derbi 50cc) not allowed.
Still 50k per hour too slow on motorway too slow for me and dangerous.
Normal traffic 100kph and you max 50, loaded likely 40...
Buy a big rig and make serious money... i get you good deal....

As stated above we’re talking about a JCB Fastrac which has a 70km/h box

U2erthy

I read if it can reach 50 I'm an hour it can go on motorways but tractor and trailer will need to be marked as such
You need w licence to drive you will need insurance I would ask the garda about using red diesel on the road full time it's probably not allowed

Slackbolts

gctest50 wrote: »

Bad idea to base a business on a bit of dodgy diesel fraud

Anyway you'll get reported for green every week

I agree, was just curious to see if the tractors currently used in construction have pump or agree diesel!

Slackbolts

U2erthy wrote: »

I read if it can reach 50 I'm an hour it can go on motorways but tractor and trailer will need to be marked as such
You need w licence to drive you will need insurance

That’s correct, licence isn’t an issue.

maestroamado

I thought it was EU rule that tractors and slow moving vehicles not allowed on motorways?
It may be that they are allowed where limit and are not allowed where limit 120 kph...

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

I thought it was EU rule that tractors and slow moving vehicles not allowed on motorways?
It may be that they are allowed where limit and are not allowed where limit 120 kph...

I know for a fact they are that’s not the question being asked here.

BorneTobyWilde

It's a poor idea, you'd be better off doing something else.

Slackbolts

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's a poor idea, you'd be better off doing something else.

Thanks for the input

Bonzo Delaney

I know lads that regularly haul livestock and meal 200km round trips with fastracks all running agri juice down the M9. Could be a different kettle of fish in town with 20t of hard-core.
I wouldnt say your the first to think about it. But you regularly see a fair few civil company branded machines traveling around the roads with low loaders full of pipes , culverts and what not, can't say I've noticed many hauling muck or stone

westgolf

The civils crews running these have a contract rate for road diesel, which brings down their running cost, plus they can reclaim the vat etc. If you want to go this road go with one of the civils crowds as a subcontractor on an hourly rate. Eventually you could take on muck away/ stone in type jobs in your own right.

Kiernan2

maestroamado wrote: »

I thought tractors and slow moving vehicles (like my derbi 50cc) not allowed.
Still 50k per hour too slow on motorway too slow for me and dangerous.
Normal traffic 100kph and you max 50, loaded likely 40...
Buy a big rig and make serious money... i get you good deal....

Trucks on Irish roads are limited to 90 km/h while pulling a trailer on motorways and 80 km/h on all other roads. Most Fastracs are generally able to reach 65 km/h with some able to reach 80 km/h. So it’s not really dangerous, plus costs are considerably cheaper with tax, insurance and diesel.

Stihl waters

No doubt about it you would probably be kept going, theres a guy near me that made his living that way, just a couple of points, if I were you I'd forget about the dump trailer and buy a flat bed tipper with drop sides, you can carry bags of sand, gravel, blocks or anything that can be carried on pallets and unleaded with a teleporter, I'd also get a waste permit number and stick a set of mesh sides on it for dump runs out of builders sites, maybe something to consider so you're not tied to delivering just loose materials

maestroamado

Kiernan2 wrote: »

Trucks on Irish roads are limited to 90 km/h while pulling a trailer on motorways and 80 km/h on all other roads. Most Fastracs are generally able to reach 65 km/h with some able to reach 80 km/h. So it’s not really dangerous, plus costs are considerably cheaper with tax, insurance and diesel.

I am pretty confident agriculture tractors not allowed on motorways in EU.
It may be the OP does not need use motorways but this will confine business to very small area if around Dublin in my view.
If the OP wants to find out i am sure insurance company clarify....

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

I am pretty confident agriculture tractors not allowed on motorways in EU.
It may be the OP does not need use motorways but this will confine business to very small area if around Dublin in my view.
If the OP wants to find out i am sure insurance company clarify....

This has been clarified numerous times already

Slackbolts

westgolf wrote: »

The civils crews running these have a contract rate for road diesel, which brings down their running cost, plus they can reclaim the vat etc. If you want to go this road go with one of the civils crowds as a subcontractor on an hourly rate. Eventually you could take on muck away/ stone in type jobs in your own right.

Interesting points, appreciate the suggestions, I know of some civils crowds definitely using agri diesel which I wasn’t aware was illegal. Sub contractor route might be the way to go

maestroamado

Slackbolts wrote: »

This has been clarified numerous times already

Where has it being clarified...

Slackbolts

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

I know lads that regularly haul livestock and meal 200km round trips with fastracks all running agri juice down the M9. Could be a different kettle of fish in town with 20t of hard-core.
I wouldnt say your the first to think about it. But you regularly see a fair few civil company branded machines traveling around the road with low loaders full of pipes , culverts and what not, can't say I've noticed many hauling muck or stone

I wouldn’t say I’m the first either and just curious as to what the stumbling blocks would be, diesel now potentially being one of them. Like you said though I highly doubt the tractors currently being used are running white diesel, even though they should be as one poster suggested.

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

Where has it being clarified...

I’m not going to argue with you, I’m happy I know the law well enough with regard to tractors on motorways.

maestroamado

Slackbolts wrote: »

I’m not going to argue with you, I’m happy I know the law well enough with regard to tractors on motorways.

Good luck with it??

Slackbolts

maestroamado wrote: »

Where has it being clarified...

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/its-legal-to-drive-a-tractor-and-trailer-on-the-motorway-but-theres-a-catch/

Your maintenance costs will be higher and not much cheaper to buy 1st day vs a truck


Your probably talking e170K for 180hp vario transmission tractor,add 10 to 12K for each 10HP over that.......and 15 to 20K for a eqipped out dump trailer capable of taking 15 ton

And you will still only be bringing half loads vs a truck.....its doable,but your tieing up obscene money,for something you'll do well to draw a wage out of,after payments/maintence costs taken out

Car99

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your maintenance costs will be higher and not much cheaper to buy 1st day vs a truck


Your probably talking e170K for 180hp vario transmission tractor,add 10 to 12K for each 10HP over that.......and 15 to 20K for a eqipped out dump trailer capable of taking 15 ton

And you will still only be bringing half loads vs a truck.....its doable,but your tieing up obscene money,for something you'll do well to draw a wage out of,after payments/maintence costs taken out

Why do you think he would be only bringing half loads v a truck. 20 ton is 20 ton no matter what you bring it in. 5 axle tippers can bring 25 not sure if a 3 axle dump trailer and fastrac could.

maestroamado

Slackbolts wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/its-legal-to-drive-a-tractor-and-trailer-on-the-motorway-but-theres-a-catch/

Thanks...
I thought it was same rule for all of EU on this one... seems not...

Car99

Car99 wrote: »

Why do you think he would be only bringing half loads v a truck. 20 ton is 20 ton no matter what you bring it in. 5 axle tippers can bring 25 not sure if a 3 axle dump trailer and fastrac could.

Most trucks out my way at tipping 28 to 30ton (but i live rural area and they've extra axle added now)


25 ton dump trailer,set out with air brakes,on brink of being brought in,if not already for anything doing over 40K,(those hyd brakes are rubbish and will redden your tractor brakes) wont come in,under 24K,id be suprised if less than 40k via dooleys anyway



Like its doable,but the money/costs tied up for a wage,not much greater than what yous would get at lidl is eye-watering......if a lad wants to go at it,fair play and best of luck,but dont be thinking theres a pot of gold at end of rainbow from driving a tractor

Testacalda

You'll need commercial insurance, which isn't a problem to get, FBD do it, it's around €2500 on our T7, but that is in addition to using it for farm use, whether you can get it for just commercial use I don't know.

Diesel is your own shout, technically you should be running road diesel as you are doing just haulage work. Quite possible you will be reported by other haulage companys, so expect to be dipped at some stage. If your work is split between on and off road then that's a different story.

Also, there could be a difference for road tax but again it's up to you to investigate. There used to be a category for 'General Haulage Tractor' for agricultural vehicles, as opposed to the regular agri tax, not sure if that tax category still exists or if anyone ever bothered with it.

I would advise running a more industrial type tyre rather than the normal agri grip type, they are still decent enough off road. Get a ball and spoon coupling rather than ring and hook, they are safer, less wear, and you are allowed slightly higher weight, up to 34,000 kg Gross trailer weight with the ideal set up:

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Agricultural_Vehicles/Weights%20and%20Dimensions%20for%20Agricultural%20Vehicles.pdf

Steering axle on the dump trailer will add hugely to your manoeuvrability, they make a massive difference, even a passive steer axle.

Have you ever owned a Fastrac before? Brilliant machine for haulage I agree, but not a cheap machine to maintain and you'll need a competent mechanic, as down time will be a big issue in your game. Fastracs are very comfortable, but the newer ones are not significantly faster than many of the new conventional tractors, which are a cheaper option with better resale value.

Finally, do you know of anyone else doing what you plan to do, that in itself could be the best advice of all.

(and yes, tractors are allowed on the motorway!!)

silver2020

westgolf wrote: »

The civils crews running these have a contract rate for road diesel, which brings down their running cost, plus they can reclaim the vat etc. If you want to go this road go with one of the civils crowds as a subcontractor on an hourly rate. Eventually you could take on muck away/ stone in type jobs in your own right.

The contract rate for diesel is not much less than the competitive fuel stations. Maybe 5c saving/litre, but obviously vat is reclaimable.

For the OP, there are any amount of people who will deliver small loads, large loads and 1 T bagged stone

As for the Marked diesel, the good news is revenue does not say anything about it not permitted in tractors on the road.
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner-farming/20190704/281655371627632

Slackbolts

Testacalda wrote: »

You'll need commercial insurance, which isn't a problem to get, FBD do it, it's around €2500 on our T7, but that is in addition to using it for farm use, whether you can get it for just commercial use I don't know.

Diesel is your own shout, technically you should be running road diesel as you are doing just haulage work. Quite possible you will be reported by other haulage companys, so expect to be dipped at some stage. If your work is split between on and off road then that's a different story.

Also, there could be a difference for road tax but again it's up to you to investigate. There used to be a category for 'General Haulage Tractor' for agricultural vehicles, as opposed to the regular agri tax, not sure if that tax category still exists or if anyone ever bothered with it.

I would advise running a more industrial type tyre rather than the normal agri grip type, they are still decent enough off road. Get a ball and spoon coupling rather than ring and hook, they are safer, less wear, and you are allowed slightly higher weight, up to 34,000 kg Gross trailer weight with the ideal set up:

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Agricultural_Vehicles/Weights%20and%20Dimensions%20for%20Agricultural%20Vehicles.pdf

Steering axle on the dump trailer will add hugely to your manoeuvrability, they make a massive difference, even a passive steer axle.

Have you ever owned a Fastrac before? Brilliant machine for haulage I agree, but not a cheap machine to maintain and you'll need a competent mechanic, as down time will be a big issue in your game. Fastracs are very comfortable, but the newer ones are not significantly faster than many of the new conventional tractors, which are a cheaper option with better resale value.

Finally, do you know of anyone else doing what you plan to do, that in itself could be the best advice of all.

(and yes, tractors are allowed on the motorway!!)

Thank you very much, that’s the kind of information I’m after. I know of someone doing it but it’s not their main form of revenue, it’s a kind of add on to their existing civils company, I’ve reached out to them nevertheless to see if they’d be able to go over the figures

Rave.ef

I'm going to be honest. You won't get the work out of quarrys and tips. Every haulage company around will make your life hell and with good reason.
I'd be inclined to say you can't put one on your haulage licence ether.

dollylama

Rave.ef wrote: »

I'm going to be honest. You won't get the work out of quarrys and tips. Every haulage company around will make your life hell and with good reason.
I'd be inclined to say you can't put one on your haulage licence ether.

This. If hauliers see you eating their lunch while burning agri diesel, you can expect a prompt, no-nonsense education from the RSA, AGS, etc. Also, the quarries will be weary to supply you if you're pissing off the hauliers who draw large volumes from them everyday.

Tractors and dump-trailers on agri diesel was a big thing down our country 10-15 years ago but not anymore. It's all 8 wheel tippers now, road-worthy and with proper permits or one can forget about getting legitimate work.

tabby aspreme

Local Civil's company have a Fastrack, they use it with a 24 tonne dump trailer, another trailer with a side elevator for dropping stone at the edge of newly ashfelted roads, and a third trailer with a clamshell grab on it, having the different trailers makes it versatile, but a huge investment.

As regards diesel use, a tractor on road haulage will be revving hard all the time, loaded or not, and will use as much diesel as a truck, your only saving would be on the color of the diesel

enricoh

I'd get a little 8 ton tipper truck, delivering topsoil - everyone's going mad with raised beds etc. A bit of plastic sheeting on the driveway n away you go.

If you get one with a crane on it a clamshell for taking stuff away wouldn't be long paying for itself.