Advice required for suitable heat source in 90s home

LillySV

ok lads, have a detached two story house built in 1997, use small cheap non boiler stove to heat bottom floor at present and use oiler boiler to heat upstairs and heat water.....house is destroyed with ashes from the stove though so have to change it...dont think theres any point in buying a better solid fuel stove though when the likes of the greens are in and mad to cut all that out...so looking for other suitable options to heat up my home...would be nice if it heated water also but main concern is heating the home..

I dont know if wood pellet boiler would be a future proof idea as once again i fear the current green/dumbass govt in power could ban all solid fuel, including wood pellets?. There isnt any natural gas available in my area to use with a gas stove...could get canisters...but once again dont know if it be safe future wise?. I know ground to air heating pumps isnt an option for me , so thinking air to water heat pump ..or solar power to heat house perhaps..? Anyone in the know that could advise what would suit my situation best?

Ubbquittious

You could put in a new stove with boiler. Its easier to get timber than pellets. Anyone can cut timber but to make pellets you need a special machine that costs many thousands. Make sure you put in a good big one if you go down that route. Phuq the greens, theyll be gone again soon hopefully.

You could put in an oil boiler. But you 're opening yourself up to carbon tax and the price of oil then

If you want a heat pump theyll probably tell you that you need to fly the pope in from Rome to bless the house before youd be eligible for a grant so if you go down that route better to eschew the grant and DIY it.

LillySV

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You could put in a new stove with boiler. Its easier to get timber than pellets. Anyone can cut timber but to make pellets you need a special machine that costs many thousands. Make sure you put in a good big one if you go down that route. Phuq the greens, theyll be gone again soon hopefully.

You could put in an oil boiler. But you 're opening yourself up to carbon tax and the price of oil then

If you want a heat pump theyll probably tell you that you need to fly the pope in from Rome to bless the house before youd be eligible for a grant so if you go down that route better to eschew the grant and DIY it.

id buy a better solid stove in a haeartbeat but know i heard that c@n# Michael Martin say he would be done with fossil fuels and will ban it just like he did with the cigarettes...Thats the feather in his cap and he wants to add to that and has proven that he doesnt care about country people...

Are these heat pumps any good though or is the technology still too fresh and needs perfecting? Is the solar panels any good either?

Ubbquittious

LillySV wrote: »

id buy a better solid stove in a haeartbeat but know i heard that c@n# Michael Martin say he would be done with fossil fuels and will ban it just like he did with the cigarettes...Thats the feather in his cap and he wants to add to that and has proven that he doesnt care about country people...

Are these heat pumps any good though or is the technology still too fresh and needs perfecting? Is the solar panels any good either?

Just as well timber and turf are far related from fossils.



The heatpumps themselves are OK but they'll only heat water to 35 or 40 degrees before they become very inefficient. If your rads are too small or your house to draughty you'll be in the cold.

LillySV

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Just as well timber and turf are far related from fossils.



The heatpumps themselves are OK but they'll only heat water to 35 or 40 degrees before they become very inefficient. If your rads are too small or your house to draughty you'll be in the cold.

so technology in it still has a good way to go then.

any other options?
apart from timber and turf haha

Ubbquittious

LillySV wrote: »

so technology in it still has a good way to go then.

any other options?
apart from timber and turf haha

Insulating the absolute bejaysus out of the house and using solar might be possible but it would be an exotic setup


Ring calor or flo gas and they'll probably be dieing to throw a boiler & gas tank at you but this isn't a cheap option in the long run. Bit dearer than oil I would say

Stihl waters

Oil all the way, 20 plus years out of a boiler, heat at the flick of a switch, stick in an electric shower for immediate hot water, immersion in the summer for any hot water you'll need,no ashes, turf, timber coal, and absolutely insulate the house as much as possible, oil is going nowhere for a long time

slave1

Ahem, renewables forum.

Insulate, insulate, insulate.
Windows, doors, attic, walls, cavity, under floor, small porch at front/back door, multi fuel stove.
Then PV to take care of hot water April to September and modest reduction of electricity costs throughout the year.

LillySV

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Insulating the absolute bejaysus out of the house and using solar might be possible but it would be an exotic setup


Ring calor or flo gas and they'll probably be dieing to throw a boiler & gas tank at you but this isn't a cheap option in the long run. Bit dearer than oil I would say

live in Galway City and pipe goes near near here but gas crowd wont bring it into estate unless i get afew people to sign up....have no intention of beggin half the estate to change to gas so i can get it...and cant believe these friggers expect people to do that! I do like the idea of gas stove though...would uying gas canisters be a mad idea?

LillySV

Stihl waters wrote: »

Oil all the way, 20 plus years out of a boiler, heat at the flick of a switch, stick in an electric shower for immediate hot water, immersion in the summer for any hot water you'll need,no ashes, turf, timber coal, and absolutely insulate the house as much as possible, oil is going nowhere for a long time

slave1 wrote: »

Ahem, renewables forum.

Insulate, insulate, insulate.
Windows, doors, attic, walls, cavity, under floor, small porch at front/back door, multi fuel stove.
Then PV to take care of hot water April to September and modest reduction of electricity costs throughout the year.

yea got the house pumped, new front and back doors also which has made a massive improvement. Pv as in solar panels?

MacronvFrugals

LillySV wrote: »

yea got the house pumped, new front and back doors also which has made a massive improvement. Pv as in solar panels?

Cavity pumped? Would you mind if i asked how much that cost?

LillySV

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Cavity pumped? Would you mind if i asked how much that cost?

it was a few years ago and ive a memory like a sieve...think it couldve been around 2,500

MacronvFrugals

LillySV wrote: »

it was a few years ago and ive a memory like a sieve...think it couldve been around 2,500

Pleasantly surprised at that thought it cost 10k+

Thanks

Ubbquittious

LillySV wrote: »

live in Galway City and pipe goes near near here but gas crowd wont bring it into estate unless i get afew people to sign up....have no intention of beggin half the estate to change to gas so i can get it...and cant believe these friggers expect people to do that! I do like the idea of gas stove though...would uying gas canisters be a mad idea?

Calor or Flo would give you a 500/1000L tank. No need to buy cannisters or petition the estate

sebdavis

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Pleasantly surprised at that thought it cost 10k+

Thanks

Cavity pump is cheap. You are thinking about external insulation. I done a 3,000 sqft bungalow with a cavity pump and it was a few k.

sebdavis

slave1 wrote: »

Ahem, renewables forum.

Insulate, insulate, insulate.
Windows, doors, attic, walls, cavity, under floor, small porch at front/back door, multi fuel stove.
Then PV to take care of hot water April to September and modest reduction of electricity costs throughout the year.

Yes it is the renewables forum but the last thing anyone would want is putting in a heating system which will be burning fuel non stop to try heat the house.

Yes insulation is clearly the way to go but the cost might be too much with insulation and then the cost of a heat pump.

If you spend money and do the basic insulation a new condenser oil boiler "could" be the greenest way to heat the house.

ei9go

What is the BER of your house?

You cannot install a heat pump unless you spend a fortune on insulation and bring the house up to modern standards.

The radiators would only run around 40 degrees so they become huge.

Even though this is a renewable forum, the only cost effective choice is an oil boiler.

LillySV

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Pleasantly surprised at that thought it cost 10k+

Thanks

just checked and it was done in late 2011! cost me 2350, after grant deductions... felt the difference but believe it or not, the biggest difference i felt in house straight away was when i changed the front and rear doors of house!

Anyways so going on replies here...air to water doesnt have much heat output so would definitely require full change to the likes of aluminium radiators to benefit from it..which would be fine if im starting off kitting out a new house and have yet to purchase radaitors etc...im not in this situation so its probably not gon to pay itself back for me...

What about the solar panels then for central heating? is that better or worse than air to water ..or is it even a runner?

whats gas stoves like? Expensive to run or cheap in comparison to turning on oil for an hour?

wexfordman2

LillySV wrote: »

just checked and it was done in late 2011! cost me 2350, after grant deductions... felt the difference but believe it or not, the biggest difference i felt in house straight away was when i changed the front and rear doors of house!

Anyways so going on replies here...air to water doesnt have much heat output so would definitely require full change to the likes of aluminium radiators to benefit from it..which would be fine if im starting off kitting out a new house and have yet to purchase radaitors etc...im not in this situation so its probably not gon to pay itself back for me...

What about the solar panels then for central heating? is that better or worse than air to water ..or is it even a runner?

whats gas stoves like? Expensive to run or cheap in comparison to turning on oil for an hour?

Solar panels for electricity (and where excess can be used to heat your water) are a great idea, but not from the perspective of a heat source, they won't provide anything near the demand you need when your heat requirement is highest (Nov to Jan feb)

LillySV

Anyone have any experience of small oil stoves? Brother said he knows of a guy who has one and reckons they are the business...doesnt use much..

Stihl waters

LillySV wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of small oil stoves? Brother said he knows of a guy who has one and reckons they are the business...doesnt use much..

Used to have one here, I only changed to solid because the oil stove started giving trouble, I'm sorry I didn't buy another oil stove instead of putting in a solid, they literally run on a drip feed of kerosene, if I could I'd go back to the oil, heat at the flick of a switch and no mess with timber or coal

LillySV

just wondering what peoples thoughts are on wood pellet stoves? are they good, as in cheap to run and effective? or costly ? I assume dust wouldnt be an issue with these as very little from them surely?

unkel

LillySV wrote: »

just wondering what peoples thoughts are on wood pellet stoves? are they good, as in cheap to run and effective? or costly ? I assume dust wouldnt be an issue with these as very little from them surely?

A simple thought for us all in this 21st century: don't burn stuff.

Stihl waters

unkel wrote: »

A simple thought for us all in this 21st century: don't burn stuff.

A noble sentiment and one I agree with, but until affordable alternatives are made available freely to everyone then we're stuck burning for a long time to come

LillySV

unkel wrote: »

A simple thought for us all in this 21st century: don't burn stuff.

Find me a suitable option then

Air to water is out, solar won’t do it .... so what other option other than burning ?

mp3guy

unkel wrote: »

A simple thought for us all in this 21st century: don't burn stuff.

If you're in a rural area, nothing wrong with burning wood. It's renewable.

dathi

mp3guy wrote: »

If you're in a rural area, nothing wrong with burning wood. It's renewable.

but it doesn't take account of the carbon emissions involved with harvesting and transporting the timber. also if you cut down a 20 year old tree for fuel even if you plant new tree it will be 20 years before it captures the same amount of carbon by which time we will be well passed the tipping point of climate change

mp3guy

dathi wrote: »

but it doesn't take account of the carbon emissions involved with harvesting and transporting the timber. also if you cut down a 20 year old tree for fuel even if you plant new tree it will be 20 years before it captures the same amount of carbon by which time we will be well passed the tipping point of climate change

The harvesting and transporting for wood will be decarbonised the same way that the harvesting and transporting of everything else will be decarbonised.

No point being extremist or cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wood is a clean renewable resource that is entirely practical to use in select situations (i.e. not being burnt by every house in a town with dozens of housing estates).

unkel

Stihl waters wrote: »

A noble sentiment and one I agree with, but until affordable alternatives are made available freely to everyone then we're stuck burning for a long time to come

Solar and wind electricity are already cheaper to produce than any other form of electricity, even dirt cheap coal or gas

Stihl waters

unkel wrote: »

Solar and wind electricity are already cheaper to produce than any other form of electricity, even dirt cheap coal or gas

That's not my point, it's the cost to the end user that's unaffordable

LillySV

unkel wrote: »

Solar and wind electricity are already cheaper to produce than any other form of electricity, even dirt cheap coal or gas

But would solar or wind energy power my heating the whole year ?

When u say wind energy you probably mean a massive turbine that won’t fit in my little back garden!? Haha

So back to what I asked ... what would work for me in a house ... not what’s good for the world in afew years time when they get it right

mp3guy

LillySV wrote: »

But would solar or wind energy power my heating the whole year ?

When u say wind energy you probably mean a massive turbine that won’t fit in my little back garden!? Haha

So back to what I asked ... what would work for me in a house ... not what’s good for the world in afew years time when they get it right

Renewables: Insulation, airtightness and heatpump.

Nothing else renewable right now. Wood pellet boiler would take up a bit of space ideally in an outbuilding.

mickdw

mp3guy wrote: »

Renewables: Insulation, airtightness and heatpump.

Nothing else renewable right now. Wood pellet boiler would take up a bit of space ideally in an outbuilding.

But people cannot afford this type of retrofit. Its just not a runner for much of the current housing stock.
Throw 60k plus at a house to have it cheap to run or jist install an oil boiler and live with the costs - most have only one option.
Government need to look at how they are funding energy improvements.
There is alot of money being handed out but alot of it is being lost into inflated prices due to the grants themselves.

mp3guy

mickdw wrote: »

But people cannot afford this type of retrofit. Its just not a runner for much of the current housing stock.
Throw 60k plus at a house to have it cheap to run or jist install an oil boiler and live with the costs - most have only one option.
Government need to look at how they are funding energy improvements.
There is alot of money being handed out but alot of it is being lost into inflated prices due to the grants themselves.

You're not wrong.

iora_rua

We have a very old Stanley type oil fuelled boiler. Takes up too much room and is very noisy etc. in a small house. Would like to replace it with one of those smaller modern ones that can be placed outside, but I believe all the 'bits' to go with it would take up a lot of room somewhere in the house? May have to put in for a grant as some extra house insulation required too.

Patmwgs

iora_rua wrote: »

We have a very old Stanley type oil fuelled boiler. Takes up too much room and is very noisy etc. in a small house. Would like to replace it with one of those smaller modern ones that can be placed outside, but I believe all the 'bits' to go with it would take up a lot of room somewhere in the house? May have to put in for a grant as some extra house insulation required too.

I have the same stanley, l dont have to use too much. To repkace it with exterior grant condenser model you would need to extend your flow and return pipes through wall to exterior . If your stanley is on an exterio wall, it would not be too much work.

For a renewables energies forum, there's an awful lot of mis-information and FUD floating about

Firstly, the tech behind heat pumps is the same tech used in your fridge, its a heat exchanger, thats it, the only difference is its scaled up for the home, but it is literally the same. They have been around for like 100 years and are used all over the world. Its best paired with underfloor heating and excellent insulation. Copying a quote from the pinned thread on heatpumps "Heat pumps move energy, not create it."

Next, oil. For all of you saying its cheaper, it is for now, but don't forget its going to have carbon tax piled on to it year after year after year. Its also massively influenced by market prices. Take a look at the cost of 1000 liters since 2008, stable it aint



Whatever heat source you opt to go for op, make sure it makes sense over 20 years, not just today.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

But people cannot afford this type of retrofit. Its just not a runner for much of the current housing stock.
Throw 60k plus at a house to have it cheap to run or jist install an oil boiler and live with the costs - most have only one option.
Government need to look at how they are funding energy improvements.
There is alot of money being handed out but alot of it is being lost into inflated prices due to the grants themselves.

Agreed and I'd go further and state that deep retrofitting a house is a waste of resources and should not have any subsidy attached to it as most of it goes to labour costs and installers profit. Forget about old houses, just make all new houses to passiv house standard with electric heating only and plenty of PV

We won't get to 100% renewables overnight, it will take decades. Let's concentrate first on areas that are far easier to convert to electric, like transport. And let's concentrate on producing a lot more electricity from wind, preferably with storage

mp3guy

unkel wrote: »

Agreed and I'd go further and state that deep retrofitting a house is a waste of resources and should not have any subsidy attached to it as most of it goes to labour costs and installers profit. Forget about old houses, just make all new houses to passiv house standard with electric heating only and plenty of PV

We won't get to 100% renewables overnight, it will take decades. Let's concentrate first on areas that are far easier to convert to electric, like transport. And let's concentrate on producing a lot more electricity from wind, preferably with storage

So what happens to the hundreds of thousands of houses dependent on oil and gas? Do they just keep burning it, inefficiently for the next 30 years?

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

Agreed and I'd go further and state that deep retrofitting a house is a waste of resources and should not have any subsidy attached to it as most of it goes to labour costs and installers profit. Forget about old houses, just make all new houses to passiv house standard with electric heating only and plenty of PV

We won't get to 100% renewables overnight, it will take decades. Let's concentrate first on areas that are far easier to convert to electric, like transport. And let's concentrate on producing a lot more electricity from wind, preferably with storage

There is a company in mayo claiming to go another way with retrofitting houses - not improving the fabric of the house, just bolting on renewables. I dont buy what that company are saying (hone world) but in general is there merit in the idea of going for large solar pv install if we have feed in tariff and perhaps oversized heat pump systems that might work in an older structure?

Patmwgs

mickdw wrote: »

There is a company in mayo claiming to go another way with retrofitting houses - not improving the fabric of the house, just bolting on renewables. I dont buy what that company are saying (hone world) but in general is there merit in the idea of going for large solar pv install if we have feed in tariff and perhaps oversized heat pump systems that might work in an older structure?

No surprise there. Unless they mean bolting on renewables (pv panels) in place of external insulation all round, and it adds to improving roof insulation like covering whole roof to act like a second layer to keep draughts out. Windows might be a problem. Not a good idea them pulling the wool over people's eyes. Sorting insulation and all other heat loss to best that can be achieved with an older property should always be first line of attack. Money well spent.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

There is a company in mayo claiming to go another way with retrofitting houses - not improving the fabric of the house, just bolting on renewables. I dont buy what that company are saying (hone world) but in general is there merit in the idea of going for large solar pv install if we have feed in tariff and perhaps oversized heat pump systems that might work in an older structure?

The tariff comes with conditions to specifically avoid that. You must have a BER of B or higher, or C1, not sure which, to qualify for the FIT

unkel

mp3guy wrote: »

So what happens to the hundreds of thousands of houses dependent on oil and gas? Do they just keep burning it, inefficiently for the next 30 years?

Pretty much. Obviously good value retrofitting, like insulation and efficient boilers should be done with tax credits (preferable to subsidies) and also very large PV installs should be encouraged with generous FIT, but spending 100k (half of that from the tax payer) to bring a house up to current standards is a total waste of money imho

We should go for the low hanging fruit first. No reason any new diesel bus / truck / van / train should still be sold in 10 years time. Cars, in 3-4 years time.

Stihl waters

unkel wrote: »

Pretty much. Obviously good value retrofitting, like insulation and efficient boilers should be done with tax credits (preferable to subsidies) and also very large PV installs should be encouraged with generous FIT, but spending 100k (half of that from the tax payer) to bring a house up to current standards is a total waste of money imho

We should go for the low hanging fruit first. No reason any new diesel bus / truck / van / train should still be sold in 10 years time. Cars, in 3-4 years time.

Is the technology available to move entirely to EVs when it comes to logistics, what I mean is is there sufficient battery in a truck pulling 44 tons to do 700-800 kilometres a day, same with Van's and smaller commercial vehicles, is it a matter of waiting for the tech to improve or is it in the pipeline already

monseiur

LillySV wrote: »

ok lads, have a detached two story house built in 1997, use small cheap non boiler stove to heat bottom floor at present and use oiler boiler to heat upstairs and heat water.....house is destroyed with ashes from the stove though so have to change it...dont think theres any point in buying a better solid fuel stove though when the likes of the greens are in and mad to cut all that out...so looking for other suitable options to heat up my home...would be nice if it heated water also but main concern is heating the home..

I dont know if wood pellet boiler would be a future proof idea as once again i fear the current green/dumbass govt in power could ban all solid fuel, including wood pellets?. There isnt any natural gas available in my area to use with a gas stove...could get canisters...but once again dont know if it be safe future wise?. I know ground to air heating pumps isnt an option for me , so thinking air to water heat pump ..or solar power to heat house perhaps..? Anyone in the know that could advise what would suit my situation best?

You shuould consider heating the whole house with your oil boiler and not just upstairs and replace your stove with an oil burning one or have an open fire instead for homly effect more that heat.
Oil will be the best and cheapest way to heat your house for the foreseeable future.
Bye the time oil becomes uneconomical to heat your house your boiler will be long overdue replacing and a better, more advanced heating system will be on the market. All alternative heating systems are at an early research and development stage at the moment.
As others have said upgrade your insulation, fit at least 300mm in attic and if budget allows upgrade windwos to triple glazed etc.
It is almost impossible to retrofit an air to water system successfully. House has to be designed/built to suit - beware of snake oil salesmen.
If you are one of those unfortunate delusional people who think they're saving the planet by using sustainable/renewable fuel.....just Google the following
'' China's annual coal consumption'' or words to that effect.
No saying the Chinese are right, it's just that the facts are astounding.
You can always fit a few solar panels to appease your green concience, the actual pay back is 15 to 20 years and they'll be obselete by then!

Stihl waters

Stihl waters wrote: »

Is the technology available to move entirely to EVs when it comes to logistics, what I mean is is there sufficient battery in a truck pulling 44 tons to do 700-800 kilometres a day, same with Van's and smaller commercial vehicles, is it a matter of waiting for the tech to improve or is it in the pipeline already

Already in development by multiple companies (Ford, Volva, Daimler, Tesla, Rivian, BYD etc) and due to come on stream 2022-2025 depending on the company and the model type (van/truck etc)

monseiur wrote: »

You shuould consider heating the whole house with your oil boiler and not just upstairs and replace your stove with an oil burning one or have an open fire instead for homly effect more that heat.
Oil will be the best and cheapest way to heat your house for the foreseeable future.
Bye the time oil becomes uneconomical to heat your house your boiler will be long overdue replacing and a better, more advanced heating system will be on the market. All alternative heating systems are at an early research and development stage at the moment.
As others have said upgrade your insulation, fit at least 300mm in attic and if budget allows upgrade windwos to triple glazed etc.
It is almost impossible to retrofit an air to water system successfully. House has to be designed/built to suit - beware of snake oil salesmen.
If you are one of those unfortunate delusional people who think they're saving the planet by using sustainable/renewable fuel.....just Google the following
'' China's annual coal consumption'' or words to that effect.
No saying the Chinese are right, it's just that the facts are astounding.
You can always fit a few solar panels to appease your green concience, the actual pay back is 15 to 20 years and they'll be obselete by then!

More mis-information and FUD

LillySV

monseiur wrote: »

You shuould consider heating the whole house with your oil boiler and not just upstairs and replace your stove with an oil burning one or have an open fire instead for homly effect more that heat.
Oil will be the best and cheapest way to heat your house for the foreseeable future.
Bye the time oil becomes uneconomical to heat your house your boiler will be long overdue replacing and a better, more advanced heating system will be on the market. All alternative heating systems are at an early research and development stage at the moment.
As others have said upgrade your insulation, fit at least 300mm in attic and if budget allows upgrade windwos to triple glazed etc.
It is almost impossible to retrofit an air to water system successfully. House has to be designed/built to suit - beware of snake oil salesmen.
If you are one of those unfortunate delusional people who think they're saving the planet by using sustainable/renewable fuel.....just Google the following
'' China's annual coal consumption'' or words to that effect.
No saying the Chinese are right, it's just that the facts are astounding.
You can always fit a few solar panels to appease your green concience, the actual pay back is 15 to 20 years and they'll be obselete by then!

I have a 3 litre diesel suv and love it, not a green person at all haha... just want to consider a future proof heating option that will suit my house the

LillySV

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Insulating the absolute bejaysus out of the house and using solar might be possible but it would be an exotic setup


Ring calor or flo gas and they'll probably be dieing to throw a boiler & gas tank at you but this isn't a cheap option in the long run. Bit dearer than oil I would say

Just checked calorgas website and see that they are indeed offering boilers for free! You reckon gas is dearer than oil though?

I try to find this on the SEAI website but theres no real info on it for anything other than heatpumps and solar grants...

Ubbquittious

LillySV wrote: »

Just checked calorgas website and see that they are indeed offering boilers for free! You reckon gas is dearer than oil though?

I try to find this on the SEAI website but theres no real info on it for anything other than heatpumps and solar grants...

I would say it is. You'll have to call them and find out the price per litre of LPG with the free boiler offer


There's 7.1-8Kwh in a Litre of LPG
But there's 10.2 in a litre of Kerosene


So even if you get them both for the same price per litre the LPG is still a nice bit dearer

LillySV

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I would say it is. You'll have to call them and find out the price per litre of LPG with the free boiler offer


There's 7.1-8Kwh in a Litre of LPG
But there's 10.2 in a litre of Kerosene


So even if you get them both for the same price per litre the LPG is still a nice bit dearer

oil it is so . i have a grant superq firebird 50/90 which lads have told me is good so probably no real saving upgrading to vortex condensor boiler...so maybe an oil stove so...sound like my best situation