Rent Affordability Enquiry

nicdd27

I'm really terrified to ask this question


Basically, I'm in my early 20's and living with younger siblings in Dublin (one parent passed away some time back, the other - let's not discuss that).
Since single parent passed away, I was advised to go onto a social payment in order to be able to avail of RA at the time in order to keep myself and my siblings stable in accommodation. Anyway as time passed, I was switched onto HAP, which was great as I was now allowed to work.

I promised myself I wanted to actually fend for myself and look after siblings, so I stuck with college and the whole bit. Hopefully, I shall be graduating in the summer, but the issue seems to start here.

My starting salary from June after graduation will be above the single person's salary limit for HAP (35,000), which basically means I will no longer be eligible for HAP. I really do want to eventually leave HAP, and even hopefully start saving for a mortgage soon (not in a selfish way, it's just for a sense of pride or whatever), but I do know that this salary may be a struggle considering I would be renting for myself and siblings, and then other expenses, etc.

The siblings are young and one is on PUP due to COVID (but has a substantial loan we want to be cleared early), so essentially I've decided to cover the rent alone for now, and I do feel a huge responsibility to look after them after family circumstances.
I have also looked into relocating outside of Dublin, but certain reasonable factors with siblings made me apply for a job in Dublin.
I'm also not terrible with money, except for the regular coffees I treat myself to. Not sure why I mentioned this, but hey

Regardless, I guess my concerns are:
1. What would you recommend I do in this circumstance?
2. Let's say my current rent is approx. 1500/month, which is fine with HAP (I mean it's over the limit, but I do top it up), but if I had to leave HAP (which I expect will be the case), would it be realistic with this salary?
3. Any tips or advice for me even moving forward? I love my family so much, I just want them to be happy and feel secure and stable, to be honest. Somehow we managed on the bare minimum for years, but we are aware of this and are working hard to get out of this situation

Very sorry for the long body of text, and I appreciate all comments

Graham

First question I'd ask is why would a sibling, living with you, receiving PUP, not be able to contribute to the rent?

The other sibling is receiving no income/financial support at all?

When I was on 200ish for the dole I handed up 60 or 70 to my mother, would have been more but I was also paying off a loan so someone on 350 should definitely be handing up. Are they not entitled to something toward their rental costs?

UDAWINNER

Something really wrong when a person on 350 is not contributing to the rent, maybe I've taken it up wrong

Victor

You don't say how many siblings there are in total or what their ages are. While your expected income might push you over the limit for HAP, if the other siblings are on modest earnings, they may be entitled to something.

It might be useful for you to talk to someone at an early stage to se what might be available.

Deleted User wrote: »

someone on 350 should definitely be handing up.

People on PUP get between €203 and €350 per week, depending on previous income.

Del2005

Victor wrote: »

People on PUP get between €203 and €350 per week, depending on previous income.

They can still contribute from whatever amount they are getting. What they get on PUP shouldn't be an issue for when the OP starts work as the country will either be opened up again or completely fecked.

nicdd27

Sorry, I should clarify, the one on PUP is on the 203, but considering they were working to pay a college loan from before they were let off, I agreed to cover their bit until they fully pay off the loan. I agreed to let them contribute in terms of other expenses also because of the loan.

I was also going to mention when I was put on HAP from RA, I was the only person with an income. When sibling started just after the second lockdown, I contacted HAP and they added their contribution to what I was already paying. Not sure if that is even helpful information.

The other siblings are under 18 (Yes I know there's some payment I could get, but after discussing it with a solicitor, and to retain peace and a connection between them and the parent, I have decided not to fight for this).

I know how messy this looks, God knows the number of people I've tried seeking help, but at the end of the day, my main priority is to figure out what I can do for us to get by and improve the situation.
I currently feel like I'm screwing siblings over by progressing in this job, and I also don't want to receive what I'm not entitled to, but it's so confusing when I've contacted a welfare officer and someone in HAP, and I'm getting different answers. It's the main reason I'm wondering if its time for me to just try support us until they find themselves on a career path they want also

Also, I'm sorry for being vague with the numbers of siblings, etc. I'm just hesitant to reveal a lot right now

MacDanger

Tough situation OP and I don't really have any advice for you tbh. Good luck with it though

nicdd27

MacDanger wrote: »

Tough situation OP and I don't really have any advice for you tbh. Good luck with it though

That's ok MacDanger, thank you for your kind words!

ms vieria

nicdd27 wrote: »

I currently feel like I'm screwing siblings over by progressing in this job, and I also don't want to receive what I'm not entitled to, but it's so confusing when I've contacted a welfare officer and someone in HAP, and I'm getting different answers.

I can't advise on the rent issue but progressing in a career is not screwing over your siblings. You progressing will show them that they can too - if you were to turn down the job and take a lower paying job just to keep HAP it could start a cycle that is difficult to break.

Cuddlesworth

How much over the 35k are we talking about?

Are you claiming all the relevant tax credits? There is a 1650 credit available for single person with dependants. Who is getting the child benefit if again, you are the primary carer?

35k a year with no pension or BIK is roughly 2500 if you include the above. Would leave you with 250 quid a week to live on. Should be doable.

Has your sibling tried looking for other work? To get out of this situation you need to be able to take your breaks and getting help is part of that.

nicdd27

ms vieria wrote: »

I can't advise on the rent issue but progressing in a career is not screwing over your siblings. You progressing will show them that they can too - if you were to turn down the job and take a lower paying job just to keep HAP it could start a cycle that is difficult to break.

Thank you for that, ms vieria, and yes I do agree. I know I definitely won't turn down this career just to keep HAP. Tbh I'm just grateful I was supported on it after what happened.
I'm probably just rambling on at this stage, but I think the frustration I have is with the unknown, and me not planning appropriately before June.

ms vieria

nicdd27 wrote: »

I'm probably just rambling on at this stage, but I think the frustration I have is with the unknown, and me not planning appropriately before June.

It is OK to rant and vent - but don't be hard on yourself for not appropriately planning as you put it. You are de-facto raising at least 2 kids - in college studying and trying to find a new job. Most adults here would struggle with that so give yourself the credit you deserve.

nicdd27

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

How much over the 35k are we talking about?

Just under 39K

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Are you claiming all the relevant tax credits? There is a 1650 credit available for single person with dependants. Who is getting the child benefit if again, you are the primary carer?

Not at the moment. I was only working part-time but left this to focus on final exams, but I am currently on a scholarship for research, but both have usually given me under 1000/month to live on which has been grand.
What I'll say is I'm not the legal guardian (so I don't receive those payments) but siblings are with me solely. I'd rather not discuss who the legal guardian is or whatnot, but there is a legal case going on there (not involving myself though). As I mentioned, after 5+ years with what's happening, I think we figured that we have to get through it ourselves, and that's cool.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

35k a year with no pension or BIK is roughly 2500 if you include the above. Would leave you with 250 quid a week to live on. Should be doable.

I was truly thinking the same, like yeah sacrifices would still be made, but I'm grateful I can start working in the area I want to.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Has your sibling tried looking for other work? To get out of this situation you need to be able to take your breaks and getting help is part of that.

The one on PUP, no. I just want them to focus on clearing their loan first. The others are young, and I'd rather they finish school and get into college first before I stress them out like that

Again sorry if I'm being vague, this just seems uncomfortable to talk about

niniboots

Really difficult decisions and I'm sure you feel very anxious to resolve or have a plan. From what I've read you've done wonderfully in keeping your family together and taken on a huge responsibility, which majority of young adults would never be expected to do. You have also shown tremendous resilience in the face of all the family difficulties you've mentioned. Well done on the college progress and new job, exciting prospects for you.

Some practical advice before you start your new job, as I'm aware from your information you are still in college. If you are receiving BTEA or another type of allowance outside of SUSI you can start a job and still receive HAP on differential rental amounts. You mentioned cap being above 35k but you need independent advice on this, outside of HAP or Dept Social Welfare. The INOU organisation are fantastic, they are impartial and offer advocacy service. You can email them or phone, they do not just give advice on social welfare payments, they will go through HAP and other related housing payments. Not sure if links are permitted but https://www.inou.ie/information/
Your living situation housing is one aspect, but the defacto carer for siblings under 18 is another. Another poster mentioned Children Allowance payments, there is obviously a complex legal situation involved here, but if you are legal guardian and children live with you fulltime you are entitled to this. If other parent is claiming you can legally challenge. There is also another means tested payment you can inquire about Family Income supplement. This allows you to claim assistance based on number of children living with you, while you are in employment.

The Citizens information are also good on the impartial advice piece if you need to check information on this payment. I appreciate there are some facts and details you can't disclose on a public forum. Wishing you the very best with your future plans & I hope you find the support you need.

nicdd27

niniboots wrote: »

Really difficult decisions and I'm sure you feel very anxious to resolve or have a plan. From what I've read you've done wonderfully in keeping your family together and taken on a huge responsibility, which majority of young adults would never be expected to do. You have also shown tremendous resilience in the face of all the family difficulties you've mentioned. Well done on the college progress and new job, exciting prospects for you.

Some practical advice before you start your new job, as I'm aware from your information you are still in college. If you are receiving BTEA or another type of allowance outside of SUSI you can start a job and still receive HAP on differential rental amounts. You mentioned cap being above 35k but you need independent advice on this, outside of HAP or Dept Social Welfare. The INOU organisation are fantastic, they are impartial and offer advocacy service. You can email them or phone, they do not just give advice on social welfare payments, they will go through HAP and other related housing payments. Not sure if links are permitted but https://www.inou.ie/information/
Your living situation housing is one aspect, but the defacto carer for siblings under 18 is another. Another poster mentioned Children Allowance payments, there is obviously a complex legal situation involved here, but if you are legal guardian and children live with you fulltime you are entitled to this. If other parent is claiming you can legally challenge. There is also another means tested payment you can inquire about Family Income supplement. This allows you to claim assistance based on number of children living with you, while you are in employment.

The Citizens information are also good on the impartial advice piece if you need to check information on this payment. I appreciate there are some facts and details you can't disclose on a public forum. Wishing you the very best with your future plans & I hope you find the support you need.

Honestly thank you so much for this message! Very kind of you

That's actually great advice! I'll make sure I contact the INOU at some stage today. I've never heard of them, but I'm sure they will be of great help

I'm not the legal guardian, so I don't think I'm entitled to it. Regardless, it would have been super helpful in the last previous years, but I also don't want to challenge it legally as we are just about getting by at this stage, and I don't want to challenge as I don't want to harm their relationship with parent at all

Again thank you very much! This advice was helpful

niniboots

nicdd27 wrote: »

Honestly thank you so much for this message! Very kind of you

That's actually great advice! I'll make sure I contact the INOU at some stage today. I've never heard of them, but I'm sure they will be of great help

I'm not the legal guardian, so I don't think I'm entitled to it. Regardless, it would have been super helpful in the last previous years, but I also don't want to challenge it legally as we are just about getting by at this stage, and I don't want to challenge as I don't want to harm their relationship with parent at all

Again thank you very much! This advice was helpful

You are so welcome, I'm sure its been really challenging for you and while you have done wonderfully in keeping the family together and encouraging the parental piece I would encourage you to check with FLAC (Free Legal Advice Centre) your rights and entitlements. If your HAP payment is ceased and the children are still residing with you fulltime, it is unbelievably unfair and actually illegal for the parent to be claiming this (if they are) without providing financial maintence to the children in question. You do not have to be legal guardian, this is paid to you if the child is in your fulltime habitual residence. The amount is 140 per month for child still in education up to age 18. If you balance the need for housing and paying rent, I feel this is worth looking into if your HAP ceases. Again, wishing you the best. If you feel unnecessarily anxious about divulging any information on this thread and at any stage want to close it you can ask the moderator to close the thread. I'm coming from a counselling perspective, so just wanted to mention that! It can be traumatic to go through the events, but more so disclosing afterwards and feeling vulnerable to the responses.

Cuddlesworth

nicdd27 wrote: »

Honestly thank you so much for this message! Very kind of you

That's actually great advice! I'll make sure I contact the INOU at some stage today. I've never heard of them, but I'm sure they will be of great help

I'm not the legal guardian, so I don't think I'm entitled to it. Regardless, it would have been super helpful in the last previous years, but I also don't want to challenge it legally as we are just about getting by at this stage, and I don't want to challenge as I don't want to harm their relationship with parent at all

Again thank you very much! This advice was helpful

If they are not caring for the children, then they shouldn't get anything for caring for the children.

I would submit the forms for child benefit payments assuming the siblings are under 18 and in school. I would make sure to get the single carer tax credit(worth 1600 quid).

Its worth keeping in mind that the requirements for one division of the government would not be the same as those for legal custody of the children.

Claw Hammer

O/p can you not move out and let another sibling take over the HAP?

nicdd27

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

If they are not caring for the children, then they shouldn't get anything for caring for the children.

I would submit the forms for child benefit payments assuming the siblings are under 18 and in school. I would make sure to get the single carer tax credit(worth 1600 quid).

Its worth keeping in mind that the requirements for one division of the government would not be the same as those for legal custody of the children.

I do understand that, but after speaking to two solicitors about this, I've decided not to go through legal action in order to retain their relationship. I know its something I should do, and this sounds crazy, but its a battle I've tried fighting for years, and I don't want extra support at this stage, all I want is to be able to fend for them and just to move on.

nicdd27

Claw Hammer wrote: »

O/p can you not move out and let another sibling take over the HAP?

I've thought about it, but it would feel like me basically abandoning siblings which I don't want to do (unless they are sick of me of course haha).
On top of that, it feels wrong to me to create another situation to get more payments. It just doesn't seem right. I mean, if moving out makes them more stable then I might have that discussion, but doesn't that just seem a bit off?

All I want really is to know if it's feasible for me to look after my siblings and myself while starting on this salary. I mean looking at the average salary, I'm grateful I'm even starting off on that.

houseyhouse

First, I want to say that you're doing an amazing job in a very difficult situation. Supporting your siblings financially and emotionally at a young age is something you should be very proud of. I also don't think you should feel that you're gaming the system or similar if you find a way to keep your HAP legally. Social welfare supports are there to support people at times in their lives when they need it, which you do. If you're coming out of college on 39k, chances are you'll more than pay it back through taxes over your lifetime.

I am not an expert on HAP so I'm just thinking out loud, but HAP limits are based on net pay not gross. Is it your net pay that's close to 39k? If so, can you max out your pension contributions to get your net pay down? 4k of pension contributions is not excessive and is a good financial move long term anyway.

Are you only claiming HAP as a single person? There are increases in the income limits for others in the household. I'm not sure how this is impacted by legal guardianship for those under 18 but the older sibling brings a 5% increase in the band, bringing you up to a limit of 36.75k. If you can claim for the younger siblings that's another 5% so brings you to 38.5k. Do you actually have to move out of the home to transfer the lease to your sibling on PUP? Could you both be on the lease as roommates (which is what you actually are - you're not a couple) and then they can get PUP for their half of the rent? I'm actually not sure how HAP works for roommates so don't know if that's a realistic option.

Anyway, I'm sure there are things you can do to make this work for you and I think you should do everything you can and not feel bad about it (not fraud obviously). You are entitled to it and so are your siblings.

TSQ

nicdd27 wrote: »

All I want really is to know if it's feasible for me to look after my siblings and myself while starting on this salary. I mean looking at the average salary, I'm grateful I'm even starting off on that.

Is it possible for you to negotiate an increased pension contribution with your employer, and reduce your salary by the same amount, to a level that would be compatible with HAP? If you can live on that lower income, that is (assume you are already managing on a low income, if receiving HAP). It would mean foregoing income now, but it is a good idea to start building up a pension pot early in working life. Must be employer pension contributions as this not counted as salary, whereas if you make the contributions yourself, it comes out of your gross salary and would affect HAP entitlement.

houseyhouse

TSQ wrote: »

Is it possible for you to negotiate an increased pension contribution with your employer, and reduce your salary by the same amount, to a level that would be compatible with HAP? If you can live on that lower income, that is (assume you are already managing on a low income, if receiving HAP). It would mean foregoing income now, but it is a good idea to start building up a pension pot early in working life. Must be employer pension contributions as this not counted as salary, whereas if you make the contributions yourself, it comes out of your gross salary and would affect HAP entitlement.

My understanding is that HAP is assessed on net pay. Usually pension contributions (and PRSI) are not considered part of net pay for means testing.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/means_test_for_social_welfare_payments/means_test.html

houseyhouse

By the way, if you want to figure out what your PRSI contributions will be so you can figure out your net pay from your gross, PwC and Deloitte have tax calculators online that you can use.

JoChervil

OP, I think you are an amazing and honourable person.

I think I would move out from the house and let other sibling take over. Maybe you could rent a room nearby and spend as much time as possible with your young siblings to provide emotional support?

Taking care of them is not your duty, so you wouldn't abuse the system. They need help and you need help too.

spaceHopper

You need to get over the guardianship, either their parent steps up to help financially or you get made the guardian or look at making them wards of court. They are grown adults and they can maintain their own relationship with their children, but blocking it they are depriving them of money to pay for their care, effectively stealing from them.

Start breaking this down into things that are your problem and not your problem and be d1ck if you have to. You are taking on to much pressure.

Could you set up a convenient to one or more of your sibling to reduce your income? Can your solicitor arrange for financial advice for you.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-tax-credits-reliefs-and-exemptions/donations-and-covenants/deeds-of-covenant/index.aspx

Or pay into a pension?

nicdd27

houseyhouse wrote: »

First, I want to say that you're doing an amazing job in a very difficult situation. Supporting your siblings financially and emotionally at a young age is something you should be very proud of. I also don't think you should feel that you're gaming the system or similar if you find a way to keep your HAP legally. Social welfare supports are there to support people at times in their lives when they need it, which you do. If you're coming out of college on 39k, chances are you'll more than pay it back through taxes over your lifetime.

I am not an expert on HAP so I'm just thinking out loud, but HAP limits are based on net pay not gross. Is it your net pay that's close to 39k? If so, can you max out your pension contributions to get your net pay down? 4k of pension contributions is not excessive and is a good financial move long term anyway.

Are you only claiming HAP as a single person? There are increases in the income limits for others in the household. I'm not sure how this is impacted by legal guardianship for those under 18 but the older sibling brings a 5% increase in the band, bringing you up to a limit of 36.75k. If you can claim for the younger siblings that's another 5% so brings you to 38.5k. Do you actually have to move out of the home to transfer the lease to your sibling on PUP? Could you both be on the lease as roommates (which is what you actually are - you're not a couple) and then they can get PUP for their half of the rent? I'm actually not sure how HAP works for roommates so don't know if that's a realistic option.

Anyway, I'm sure there are things you can do to make this work for you and I think you should do everything you can and not feel bad about it (not fraud obviously). You are entitled to it and so are your siblings.

Houseyhouse, thank you! I do appreciate that a lot.

It's actually my gross pay that is just under 39K, and using the calculator on the PwC website, net seems to work out at just over 30K. The sibling on PUP is currently on the application, so the current rate is for us both. I just decided to cover it because of that loan.

When I contacted HAP in November, I was told that we aren't on as a couple, and that we are on the same rate as one adult and one child (I'm just assuming its due to the circumstance. I've tried getting clarification on this for ages now, but it's what I was offered and I was grateful for that anyway).
I was then told I would have to move out as its the income for all residents on the same application that is taken into account, so even if I transfer it to sibling on PUP, I would also have to remove my name from application and move to change the contribution.
I don't have an issue with that, but I was then told that with the PUP rate the sibling is on, they may not even accept the application under the current rent.

nicdd27

TSQ wrote: »

Is it possible for you to negotiate an increased pension contribution with your employer, and reduce your salary by the same amount, to a level that would be compatible with HAP? If you can live on that lower income, that is (assume you are already managing on a low income, if receiving HAP). It would mean foregoing income now, but it is a good idea to start building up a pension pot early in working life. Must be employer pension contributions as this not counted as salary, whereas if you make the contributions yourself, it comes out of your gross salary and would affect HAP entitlement.

TSQ, thanks for that advice!
I'm embarrassed admitting this, but I never got any education on pensions or finance, so I don't know how the contribution to pension would work with employer.
I'm trying not to reveal much just for privacy, but the job is with a Public Service Body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming it would be possible to discuss an increased pension contribution with public service bodies?

Sorry if what I've said is incorrect

nicdd27

JoChervil wrote: »

OP, I think you are an amazing and honourable person.

I think I would move out from the house and let other sibling take over. Maybe you could rent a room nearby and spend as much time as possible with your young siblings to provide emotional support?

Taking care of them is not your duty, so you wouldn't abuse the system. They need help and you need help too.

JoChervil, thank you! I hope I am haha

This was something I was really considering, and then just pay for a room myself, and if that sibling is on the PUP or back in their job, then contribute towards the payments?

The problem here was when I asked this, I was told by HAP that siblings could get an application, but may not get accepted on the current rent at the current place (unless they first become homeless apparently).
My next question was if I could then just make up any difference from what they would qualify for, instead of having to pay the full amount (which would be easier), but I was told given mixed messages about this, but the majority of the staff I spoke to have said no.

I'm now wondering if that's actually true? I ask as I suggested to HAP what spaceHopper mentioned about setting up a Covenant (I didn't know of the term before) which could potentially be used to make up the different?

nicdd27

spaceHopper wrote: »

You need to get over the guardianship, either their parent steps up to help financially or you get made the guardian or look at making them wards of court. They are grown adults and they can maintain their own relationship with their children, but blocking it they are depriving them of money to pay for their care, effectively stealing from them.

Start breaking this down into things that are your problem and not your problem and be d1ck if you have to. You are taking on to much pressure.

Could you set up a convenient to one or more of your sibling to reduce your income? Can your solicitor arrange for financial advice for you.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-tax-credits-reliefs-and-exemptions/donations-and-covenants/deeds-of-covenant/index.aspx

Or pay into a pension?

Before first parent died, I asked if I should apply for guardianship (only because this parent did have doubts at the time), but they asked me not to in order to prevent further tension.

I PM'd two posters earlier about the issues with the payments and how I discussed it with parent who passed away's solicitor.
Didn't want to talk much about this, but essentially it was agreed solicitor and I will look into this at a later stage, mainly because I don't have full proof that the payment is being received. Only thing I know was that I was instructed by the DSP to refund payments for two months after the death of first parent after I told them about the change in circumstance. Refund was made from dead parents account btw (I was NOK), so I never had direct access to it. It was never mine to touch anyway

Trust me, I want to be cruel, but I'm an "everything happens for a reason" type of guy, and I love the family even though they do my head in at times, but once they're fine, I'm fine.

Oddly enough never thought of asking solicitor for financial advice, but that's something I will look into this coming week, so thanks again