New role - Probation period

McGiver

I've got a new role within the same company I've been with for many years.

The swap is made as an addendum to the existing contract. There is a probation period of 6 months, extendable to 11 months and the notice is only two weeks within this probation.

Is this normal or OK? Sounds dodgy to me.

Mrs OBumble

Totally normal.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Totally normal.

Not in my experience it’s not

OP- anything in your existing contract around promotions? If you have many years continuous service, are you saying that’s now completely wiped?
What did they say at the interview or how do others take on new roles?

It sounds extremely fishy to me and a way of avoiding having to commit to large redundancy payments later -or did you get paid off from current role ?

bucketybuck

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Totally normal.

Rubbish, it is not normal at all.

A probation period is for new starters, not an existing employee who isn't even getting a new contract but who is simply modifying their old one.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote: »

Not in my experience it’s not

OP- anything in your existing contract around promotions? If you have many years continuous service, are you saying that’s now completely wiped?
What did they say at the interview or how do others take on new roles?

It sounds extremely fishy to me and a way of avoiding having to commit to large redundancy payments later -or did you get paid off from current role ?

Yes, that would be my concern as well.
Need to check the contract.

No pay off.

They claim it's standard for all promotions/moves within the company and doesn't affect redundancy payments.

McGiver

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rubbish, it is not normal at all.

A probation period is for new starters, not an existing employee who isn't even getting a new contract but who is simply modifying their old one.

That would be line of thinking as well.

Probation may just relate to the new role, if it doesn’t work out, you go back to your existing role.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Totally normal.

It is not at all normal. Only an eejit would accept it.

McGiver

Dav010 wrote: »

Probation may just relate to the new role, if it doesn’t work out, you go back to your existing role.

That is not at all certain...

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

That is not at all certain...

Unless they want a trip to the WRC, it is. Have you asked?

It’s perfectly normal as Mrs O’Bumble said.

It’s even standard practice in the civil and public services. If you don’t pass probation you go back to your old role.

McGiver

Dav010 wrote: »

Unless they want a trip to the WRC, it is. Have you asked?

Checking...

McGiver

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s perfectly normal as Mrs O’Bumble said.

It’s even standard practice in the civil and public services. If you don’t pass probation you go back to your old role.

No, you don't. Confirmed.

McGiver

Dav010 wrote: »

Unless they want a trip to the WRC, it is. Have you asked?

"...would have to discuss with the manager to return to your old role if available.."

Nothing in the contract or addendum on that. Legally weak. Sounds dodgy.

EDIT: the addendum spells out that there's not change to date of continuous employment. That's OK then, doesn't affect statutory pay-off.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

"...would have to discuss with the manager to return to your old role if available.."

Nothing in the contract or addendum on that. Legally weak. Sounds dodgy.

EDIT: the addendum spells out that there's not change to date of continuous employment. That's OK then, doesn't affect statutory pay-off.

There you go then.

Mrs OBumble

McGiver wrote: »

No, you don't. Confirmed.

Wrong. I've seen the contracts. Probation is standard if you get a job at a new grade.

McGiver

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Wrong. I've seen the contracts. Probation is standard if you get a job at a new grade.

No you don't [go back to the original job if terminated at the probation] is what I meant.

McGiver

Dav010 wrote:

There you go then.

So while the statutory pay-off is covered (all existing years of service to date are counted), if the amended contract was terminated during the probation there's no going back to the previous role, nothing in the contract on that whatsoever.

Unlike the civil service people claimed here. That's maybe the practice in civil service

JustAThought

McGiver wrote: »

No you don't [hi back to the original job if terminated at the probation] is what I meant.

so they can structure you out legimately and cover any other antics that may have been going on. I guess its not the civil service and you can’t just roll back in bed to your precious job and carry on regardless. I wouldn’t be happy about it - but is it the same manager or a different one, and more technical or short term contract project work ? It might be good for them to accept new projects but if moving to work on them it affexts your long term stability or employability I might not be taking the promotion or payrise that quickly

whampiri

In the CS, if you're promoted there's a probationary period which, if you don't pass, will revert you to your previous grade.

If it's just a change of role and not a promotion then any probation period should just be to ensure that you can carry out the new role properly and revert you to the old role in the event that there's an issue.

Dempo1

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rubbish, it is not normal at all.

A probation period is for new starters, not an existing employee who isn't even getting a new contract but who is simply modifying their old one.

Completely agree, the OP"s length of service Trumps any probation period attached to a new role, whilst probation is reasonable for a new specific role, it is certainly questionable that the wording includes any mention of termination, in essence the OP would at the very least be entitled to return to old role rather than face termination. If this was allowed to stand, it would be a ploy used by companies to circumvent employment legislation by essentially creating new and obscure job discriptions to let staff go. I suggest whomever drew up this contract considers re training.

Mrs OBumble

JustAThought wrote: »

It might be good for them to accept new projects but if moving to work on them it affexts your long term stability or employability I might not be taking the promotion or payrise that quickly

Agreed. Probation has a negative effect on whether people will try new things or not. But it is allowed under Irish employment law, no matter what anyone thinks about it.

Strumms

Probation for an internal promotion or somebody moving sideways is akin to a management group coming out and saying....

“ we don’t trust ourselves or our ability to choose an appropriate internal candidate even though we know said candidate, their personality, weaknesses, strengths, they meet all the competencies required and have demonstrated them consistently over time, we believe in our knowledge about them, research on them, their performance reviews that they are the... erm.. maybe the, hmmmm ok, let’s wait and see, give it a year .”

You could have a situation where a successful candidate is after a year, performing at about 7-8/10... a good, safe, hard working, reliable member of the team... getting their bearings to an extent still but... there is an ex employee, well liked, well thought of, mate of a manager... but a performer... sending in a CV and a phone call looking to get rehired.. gives the employer a fair scope of shafting the other person, be it another internal person or indeed a new hire ... gives employers too much wiggle room, where they have plenty already.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

I've got a new role within the same company I've been with for many years.

The swap is made as an addendum to the existing contract. There is a probation period of 6 months, extendable to 11 months and the notice is only two weeks within this probation.

Is this normal or OK? Sounds dodgy to me.

If it is not in the CS, I'd query it. Make sure that your service is not reset when you move to your new role also. I know someone who got caught out with that. She moved to a new job, but the job was with a different company in the group. The group restructured late last year, consolidating all of companies into one, and she ended up with seven months service when they made her redundant, even though she'd worked for the company for eight years.

3DataModem

tara2k wrote: »

If it is not in the CS, I'd query it. Make sure that your service is not reset when you move to your new role also. I know someone who got caught out with that. She moved to a new job, but the job was with a different company in the group. The group restructured late last year, consolidating all of companies into one, and she ended up with seven months service when they made her redundant, even though she'd worked for the company for eight years.

She had a very very bad solicitor. TUPE covers these situations very clearly for takeovers and mergers for linked companies.

You start in an independant company A.
Company A is taken over by the holding Company C that owns Company B. You move to Company B. Your service start date is the day you joined A... no "reset" or "new contract" can change that.

(of course if you move from A to B before C takes over B, then that's an entirely different thing)

3DataModem

3DataModem wrote: »

She had a very very bad solicitor. TUPE covers these situations very clearly for takeovers and mergers for linked companies.

She had. Was afraid that it'd hurt her career. Solicitor told her to settle for what they gave her, plus a little extra, and move on.

Iguarantee

Dav010 wrote: »

Probation may just relate to the new role, if it doesn’t work out, you go back to your existing role.

Maybe so.

However, I'd want that laser etched in stone, or at the very least included in my contract of employment.

To the OP:

In my experience, being on probation is the norm for new hires, I haven't heard of it being applied to existing employees (that's not to say it doesn't happen, of course).

You can assume just about anything you want. However, everything comes down to what is in the contract and what the companies employment/employee policies are.

Iguarantee

Iguarantee wrote: »

Maybe so.

However, I'd want that laser etched in stone, or at the very least included in my contract of employment.

To the OP:

In my experience, being on probation is the norm for new hires, I haven't heard of it being applied to existing employees (that's not to say it doesn't happen, of course).

You can assume just about anything you want. However, everything comes down to what is in the contract and what the companies employment/employee policies are.

Irrespective of what company policies are, employment legislation still applies.

Iguarantee

Dav010 wrote: »

Irrespective of what company policies are, employment legislation still applies.

Indeed, I wasn't suggesting that the law is superseded by a contract.


In my experience, things are rarely done exactly per the job description, either by the employee or the employer.

If my manager is finding fault with my work (or looking for me to do much more than I should) then my first task would be to find out exactly what I must do and find out exactly wants superfluous to my contract/job description/the law. I'd then ensure I'm getting my base tasks done, and I wouldn't care about the rest.

Iguarantee

Iguarantee wrote: »

Indeed, I wasn't suggesting that the law is superseded by a contract.


In my experience, things are rarely done exactly per the job description, either by the employee or the employer.

If my manager is finding fault with my work (or looking for me to do much more than I should) then my first task would be to find out exactly what I must do and find out exactly wants superfluous to my contract/job description/the law. I'd then ensure I'm getting my base tasks done, and I wouldn't care about the rest.

Contracts usually have clauses in relation to extra duties when work needs require them, not all job descriptions are exhaustive, so what you are referring to here is not related to the situation the op finds him/herself in in relation to probation periods in a new position.

No matter how the new contract is worded in relation to promotion/probation, the UDA would still apply as the op’s length of service exceeds 12 months.

Iguarantee

Dav010 wrote: »

Contracts usually have clauses in relation to extra duties when work needs require them, not all job descriptions are exhaustive, so what you are referring to here is not related to the situation the op finds him/herself in in relation to probation periods in a new position.

No matter how the new contract is worded in relation to promotion/probation, the UDA would still apply as the op’s length of service exceeds 12 months.

You’re correct.

The latter part of my response is where I got my wires crossed; I’d also been posting in a thread about a tyrannical boss who wanted extra work from his team. My mistake

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

So while the statutory pay-off is covered (all existing years of service to date are counted), if the amended contract was terminated during the probation there's no going back to the previous role, nothing in the contract on that whatsoever.

Unlike the civil service people claimed here. That's maybe the practice in civil service

So this is private sector then, as I thought from the outset- many companies get you to do the role for maybe up 6 months, before promoting you but you're paid current wages- then promoted after proving you can do the role- I've heard of that and it's not as bad an idea as people might think, especially if the promotion is significant from a monetary perspective- but if you've interviewed and were successful for this different role, sorry but like, I'd be worried if I were then told I'm "on probation"- it's a recipe for managing you out of the company if things don't work out.