SEC access to regular June exam grades?

Treppen

When the SEC is moderating the teacher's predicted grade , will they have sight on the grade the student is awarded if they sit the exam?

You might say, the student can get the higher of the 2 so it shouldn't matter..... Well it ain't necessity so IF the higher of the two is initially the accredited grade , BUT the SEC decides to bump it down because they view the written exam as being more inline with profile etc!

Either way you look at it, there is going to be grade inflation this year. The SEC Moderating the predicted v and written exams separately won't really mitigate against that.

coillsaille

Treppen wrote: »

When the SEC is moderating the teacher's predicted grade , will they have sight on the grade the student is awarded if they sit the exam?

You might say, the student can get the higher of the 2 so it shouldn't matter..... Well it ain't necessity so IF the higher of the two is initially the accredited grade , BUT the SEC decides to bump it down because they view the written exam as being more inline with profile etc!

Either way you look at it, there is going to be grade inflation this year. The SEC Moderating the predicted v and written exams separately won't really mitigate against that.

My 6th years asked the very same question last week. I recall seeing some mention somewhere that this would not happen - adjusting AGs based on exam results - but not sure if I saw it in the guidelines or elsewhere.

sue97

SEC should be concerned about grade inflation as it will impact on college places for years to come.

I don't think they could / should look at grades for individual students but they may deflate calculated grades and create marking schemes to allow to try to create some sort of bell curve that resembles the norm.

coillsaille

sue97 wrote: »

they may deflate calculated grades and create marking schemes to allow to try to create some sort of bell curve that resembles the norm.

Marking schemes are adjusted every normal year to fit the bell curve, that's a long established practice. The calculated grades last year were deflated to fit the bell curve, so that's nothing new.
What's been wondered about here, in light of the fact that SEC will have access to students' exam grades before releasing their accredited grades, is whether students' exam grades in subjects they sit the exams would influence their AGs in those subjects.
This question didn't arise last year as exams were held long after the predicted grades were released.

Treppen

coillsaille wrote: »

My 6th years asked the very same question last week. I recall seeing some mention somewhere that this would not happen - adjusting AGs based on exam results - but not sure if I saw it in the guidelines or elsewhere.

your 6th years are very astute (obviously a reflection on the teacher:pac:) and dead right to ask.

I see 6th years busting their ass to maximise points and doing both accredited and written in everything to show their best side... ironically it might actually hinder them IF the SEC is looking at both results to make sure they get downgraded so their worst grade becomes their best.

I wouldn't believe any woolly language from the department or SEC.
We saw last year that quite simply - teacher were lied to and double crossed.

You can read the guide to the process here [URL="file:///C:/Users/Aengus/Documents/Surface/Desktop_Old/School/Music/guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-25-feb-2021-17.06-003-.pdf"]guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-25-feb-2021-17.06-003-.pdf[/URL]

An SEC Accredited Grade results from combining data as follows:
 A school2 estimation of a percentage mark to be awarded to a student in respect
of her/his expected performance in an examination in that particular subject.
 Data available from the state examinations – this includes, but is not necessarily
limited to, national data on past Leaving Certificate and Junior Certificate/Cycle

It doesn't say that they will use the LC 2021 written exams to moderate the accredited grade... but it doesn't say it won't either.
examination performance (pre-2020) of students in each subject. Note the underlined.

Most of the document focuses on how the grade is handled in the school... but very very little on the "national standardisation" process.

coillsaille

Treppen wrote: »

your 6th years are very astute (obviously a reflection on the teacher:pac:) and dead right to ask.

I see 6th years busting their ass to maximise points and doing both accredited and written in everything to show their best side... ironically it might actually hinder them IF the SEC is looking at both results to make sure they get downgraded so their worst grade becomes their best.

I wouldn't believe any woolly language from the department or SEC.
We saw last year that quite simply - teacher were lied to and double crossed...

..Most of the document focuses on how the grade is handled in the school... but very very little on the "national standardisation" process.

Astute indeed, more like cute hoors on the alert for any potential trap or looking for another reason not to do exams ðŸ˜

But you raise very valid points and the trust factor, as you point out, is non existent. Thankfully nobody close to me is doing the LC this year, but if they were I'd be cautious about advising them to sit the exams. While saying that, I'm advising my students to take both options as that's now the school's policy.
If SEC could guarantee that June's exam results will not be looked at in the vaguely termed standardisation process and that guarantee could be trusted then I would have full confidence that the advice to do both options is the best advice.
But..

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

your 6th years are very astute (obviously a reflection on the teacher:pac:) and dead right to ask.

I see 6th years busting their ass to maximise points and doing both accredited and written in everything to show their best side... ironically it might actually hinder them IF the SEC is looking at both results to make sure they get downgraded so their worst grade becomes their best.

I wouldn't believe any woolly language from the department or SEC.
We saw last year that quite simply - teacher were lied to and double crossed.

You can read the guide to the process here [URL="file:///C:/Users/Aengus/Documents/Surface/Desktop_Old/School/Music/guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-25-feb-2021-17.06-003-.pdf"]guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-25-feb-2021-17.06-003-.pdf[/URL]



It doesn't say that they will use the LC 2021 written exams to moderate the accredited grade... but it doesn't say it won't either.
examination performance (pre-2020) of students in each subject. Note the underlined.

Most of the document focuses on how the grade is handled in the school... but very very little on the "national standardisation" process.

Ah here, enough of the conspiracy theories.

Do you not think for a second that it would be obvious to students if the only downgrades in a class were given to people who sat exams? That effectively they were downgraded because they sat an exam and that their non-exam classmates had an advantage by not sitting the exams? Or that whoever is dealing with this mess in Athlone is going to sit on their arse all summer and not touch the predicted grades until the grades for the written exams have been returned by those marking and then start matching up grades with students? Seriously?

Or that a decent barrister would tear the SEC to shreds in the High Court if it was found that students were downgraded to ensure that their accredited grade didn't surpass their written one if they chose to sit the exam? But if they didn't sit the exam that they would have likely kept it?

sue97

coillsaille wrote: »

Marking schemes are adjusted every normal year to fit the bell curve, that's a long established practice. The calculated grades last year were deflated to fit the bell curve, so that's nothing new.
What's been wondered about here, in light of the fact that SEC will have access to students' exam grades before releasing their accredited grades, is whether students' exam grades in subjects they sit the exams would influence their AGs in those subjects.
This question didn't arise last year as exams were held long after the predicted grades were released.

I understood the question and did not think they would do that, however Treppen's is correct, they have not cut it out as an option and really could do anything.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ah here, enough of the conspiracy theories.

Do you not think for a second that it would be obvious to students if the only downgrades in a class were given to people who sat exams?

I'm not saying that a whole group from a class could be downgraded, I'm suggesting that the SEC can pick and choose individuals across different schools, subjects and grade bands when it comes to moderating accredited grades.

If they have eyes on both sets they may still potentially moderate the accredited grade to become the lowest of the two, so your lower written exam grade is "clean" but if the accredited grade is lowered then your written grade is still untouched... But becomes the higher of the two.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That effectively they were downgraded because they sat an exam and that their non-exam classmates had an advantage by not sitting the exams? Or that whoever is dealing with this mess in Athlone is going to sit on their arse all summer and not touch the predicted grades until the grades for the written exams have been returned by those marking and then start matching up grades with students? Seriously?

It's not a matter of sitting on one's arse all summer then taking out the pencil and paper and matching up grades with students.

This can be all set up and ready to go in a few seconds by computer algorithm (mark 2).

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or that a decent barrister would tear the SEC to shreds in the High Court if it was found that students were downgraded to ensure that their accredited grade didn't surpass their written one if they chose to sit the exam? But if they didn't sit the exam that they would have likely kept it?

I think you'll find that from the last Sherry case the judge admittedly hadn't a clue.

"The decision was an exercise of executive power under Article 42 of the Constitution concerning an area of policy which the court has neither the competence, nor jurisdiction, to review, he said. The court did not have the competence to make a finding "

If he were to rule against the SEC in your above scenario then it would mean he would have to open it up to everyone else who was in LC 2021, so he has to take the greater good into account.

Also:

In his judgment on Tuesday, Mr Justice Meenan ruled the Minister and State respondents were fully entitled, despite earlier commitments, to make changes to the standardisation model they considered to be in the public interest.

Also

The judge said it was “not at all surprising” Mr Sherry’s marks were downgraded from the “significantly inflated” estimated marks provided by Belvedere.

Inflated school estimates were common amongst other schools, particularly at the higher levels, he added.

So I would argue that there is a precedent there to allow for a downgrading of the predicted grades based on written exam grade because..." the Minister and State respondents were fully entitled, despite earlier commitments, to make changes to the standardisation model".


Do you not think for a second that there HAS to be massive grade inflation this year because of the "best of either result" + optimistic teachers + widening of choice in the exams?
I don't think it will be sufficient to moderate both grades independently of each other.

I'm not saying this is going to happen.
I'm saying this could happen, it has precedent from the court to happen.
No assurances were given to say that it wouldn't happen.

Do you think it would be prudent for the department to give an assurance?

I had that question.
One of my students had that same question.
One of the previous posters on this thread has students asking that same question.

Remember when we signed up to Croke Park and given assurances that no serving teacher would have their pay scale altered... But didn't realise that "serving teachers" excluded new entrants.
These things by the department of ed can either stand or fall based on one or two words.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

I'm not saying that a whole group from a class could be downgraded, I'm suggesting that the SEC can pick and choose individuals across different schools, subjects and grade bands when it comes to moderating accredited grades.

Again, do you not think students would notice? They will have access to their marks. While the exam grade might be straightforward in how it is awarded, they would still notice if downgrades issued for accredited grades happen to be to students that sit exams.

e.g. A teacher gives out a few H1s in their subject. Each of those students sit the exam. One of the students achieves a H1 in the exam, and therefore keeps the grade either way. The remaining ones are all awarded a H2 as their final grade which indicates that their accredited grade was downgraded. Students figure out that they didn't have the lowest accredited H1 grades from the teacher and wonder why theirs would have been downgraded.

Treppen wrote: »

It's not a matter of sitting on one's arse all summer then taking out the pencil and paper and matching up grades with students.

This can be all set up and ready to go in a few seconds by computer algorithm (mark 2).

Well actually they will have to complete the standardisation of accredited grades early in summer if they are to be ready to release them in mid August. To do what you're suggesting would mean that when grades come in from the written examiners in July/August then you would have to run a query to see where students achieved higher in the accredited grade and then purposely bring it down each time. What would be the purpose in that? Every student in the country is getting an accredited grade in every subject. Therefore a curve can be created from that data alone, just like it was last year. Teachers as we know will over-inflate grades, so the curve will already be adjusted. There aren't going to be many students who outperform accredited grades because so many teachers do not grade realistically.

Also it does say in the guidelines that the grades for 2021 will be in line with 2020. I'm taking from that the curve will be similar. This does make sense as there are a cohort of 2020 students in the mix (both from deferrals and the winter LC) who have those inflated results. Better to mark them off the same curve and get them all out the gap in August.

Treppen wrote: »

"The decision was an exercise of executive power under Article 42 of the Constitution concerning an area of policy which the court has neither the competence, nor jurisdiction, to review, he said. The court did not have the competence to make a finding "

If he were to rule against the SEC in your above scenario then it would mean he would have to open it up to everyone else who was in LC 2021, so he has to take the greater good into account.

Also:

Also

So I would argue that there is a precedent there to allow for a downgrading of the predicted grades based on written exam grade because..." the Minister and State respondents were fully entitled, despite earlier commitments, to make changes to the standardisation model".


Do you not think for a second that there HAS to be massive grade inflation this year because of the "best of either result" + optimistic teachers + widening of choice in the exams.

Those type of rulings aren't unusual from the courts. Courts make rulings on whether law or policy is applied in accordance with procedures set out, they don't determine whether the adjustment of curves based on specific sets of data etc is the most appropriate method, because that isn't their area of expertise. That wouldn't just apply to educational matters.


However, if what you are suggesting was to happen, it would be easy for a student to request their data which would include written exam grades and accredited grades. If the data showed that where two grades were different and a student only ever received the higher grade from the exam grade, and also it emerged that the accredited grade in each case had been downgraded to below the exam grade from where it was originally pitched, then a judge does not need educational expertise to conclude that it was done on purpose. Then you have a can of worms. Statistically it is unlikely that this situation would arise unless done purposely. Those students would have a far stronger case than anyone did this year.

What I'm finding most bizarre is that you'd have reason to doubt the SEC all of a sudden. I'm not saying that people working there are infallible, but they are the experts at this exam craic and that and the Revenue in my opinion are probably two of the most efficient/competent public services in the country. Maybe the SEC could deliver the vaccine roll out......

Last year all of this was farmed out to a Canadian software company and no one cared. And then it emerged that they hadn't even managed to do it properly and the wrong metrics were applied. I'd like to think that the experience in the SEC over the year managing the LC and JC every year would mean that there would be competent people managing all of this.

It doesn't serve anyone's interests to start downgrading people who sit the exams for the craic, having a heap of High Court cases running into 2022, and a lot of unhappy students repeating and having a knock on effect next year. I'd imagine that the DES want to put an end to pandemic Leaving Cert grading and get every out the door this year and start afresh in September with the 2022 cohort.


Also remember, 80% of grades remained unchanged last year. That's a huge percentage. Most of the change came at the top end which doesn't come as a surprise.