Can I withhold rent?

GlobalSun

Sorted.

Claw Hammer

GlobalSun wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm having a huge issue at the moment.

I signed a lease for a new apartment (though an agency). I thought everything was fine. I was told by the agency to ring the heating provider to set up my account.

When I submitted my account registration request, I was advised by the energy provider that the LL failed to pay something (I don't know what exactly, they wouldn't tell me) and they refuse to grant me the connection (meaning no heating and no hot water). The energy provider refused to give me further information and told me this is a big issue for them. They reached out to the LL and gave them a week to pay or else the temporary connection they granted me will be ceased, thus leaving me with no heating & no hot water.

I've tried ringing the agency & emailed them, no response. They went completely silent.

In the instance where the LL fails to comply, can I withhold rent for this upcoming month as it is they will be liable for any connection loss?

Thanks!

No, you cannot withold rent. Make sure all your complainst to the agency/landlord are in writing and tell them you will have the house inspected by the council and will complain to the RTB if it is not sorted out.
After that, complain to the Council and the RTB.

LessOutragePlz

GlobalSun wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm having a huge issue at the moment.

I signed a lease for a new apartment (though an agency). I thought everything was fine. I was told by the agency to ring the heating provider to set up my account.

When I submitted my account registration request, I was advised by the energy provider that the LL failed to pay something (I don't know what exactly, they wouldn't tell me) and they refuse to grant me the connection (meaning no heating and no hot water). The energy provider refused to give me further information and told me this is a big issue for them. They reached out to the LL and gave them a week to pay or else the temporary connection they granted me will be ceased, thus leaving me with no heating & no hot water.

I've tried ringing the agency & emailed them, no response. They went completely silent.

In the instance where the LL fails to comply, can I withhold rent for this upcoming month as it is they will be liable for any connection loss?

Thanks!

I am no legal expert so I can't comment on the legalities of you withholding the rent.

Will the temporary connection run out after the rent is due?

If the answer is yes then you will be taking the chance that the landlord will comply and pay the monies owed and you will continue to have heat and hot water.

In this instance the rent you are paying is your only bargaining chip so I can see why you would be considering withholding it as I and I'm sure many others would consider heating and hot water a basic necessity.

GlobalSun

The rent is due on the 1st and the "temporary" connection is due to run out on the 1st as well. It was the agent's duty to check that everything was in order with the owner before putting the property on the market.

This is not a good look to have me, the new tenant, in the middle of a bill dispute between the owner & the service provider, when I'm simply trying to set up my account.

The service provider should not disconnect me if they have an issue regarding an outstanding bill with a previous account holder. They should set up my account & let me avail of the connect, while chasing their monies through another avenue. Putting a block on my connection over a previous account is unreasonable.

1874

It is against the law to withold rent, and may be the start of an eviction process, that I am certain of.


The thing is, the landlord/owner may not even know about this problem and it may not in fact be their fault or problem (it might be or it might be to do with a previous tenant), that said letting agency's can be appallingly poor at what they do, although they may only be paid to get a tenant and not manage a property or tenant either, they could still pass this information on, and it is in the interest of an agency (imo) to do the best they can for both the tenant and landlord.


What I cant say for sure, but Id be highly suspect of the energy provider saying you cannot get electric/gas (whatever utility) connected because of a previous debt, that is not your fault or problem, maybe you could contact the CCPC or Citizens advice or google other consumer groups and even the energy regulator/website, trawl for information.
The landlord may be unaware of this, if they are, imo they are foolish to not facilitate an easy start/transition of a new tenant into a property even if this is managed by an agency, in my experience its more likely the agency doesnt care, but it could be both or none, they just expect you to sort it.
What mainly points to this, is that an energy/utility company will not give a landlord any information about a previous tenants billing or status (nor to anyone else about another customer),
I had a utility company say the same thing to me when a tenant I had just stopped paying, its been a while but I may have had to pay a re-connection fee or additional deposit to get reconnected.



You have the options of, calling the same business again (preferably forearmed with some knowledge/information about your rights) and insist upon a connection/billing (Id be astonished if this could be disputed to a person not liable for a previous debt), that said they may ask you for a deposit based on previous transactions/experience at the property, which they mask for anyway, regardless of previous experiences, just based on you being not having any customer record.
OR start ringing around for other providers,


If this is a cost you end up paying for a re-connection then maybe you could take a case in the RTB against someone,
Id say if the agency is managing things, I understand they are the responsible party to take action against, but, Id let them hang themseves first, ie ask them to sort it in email if they fail to do so, ask them for the landlord/owners details, if they decline saying they manage all dealings, bobs your aunty, take them to the RTB,, failing any reply, ID take who you know to the RTB



If they pass you onto the landlord, phone number and his address, contact them about the problem, failing any response Id take them to the RTB,


That said, you may have to cough up the money to get connected and seek a refund at a later date (if its a deposit to a utility company, you cant seek a refund of that, as if you pay your bill, you can get that back in the end anyway), if it is some kind of reconnection fee, then imo the landlord should have sourced that from the previous tenants deposit.


Keep records and dont kick up too much of a fuss prior to 6 mths

Claw Hammer

1874 wrote: »

It is against the law to withold rent, and may be the start of an eviction process, that I am certain of.




Keep records and dont kick up too much of a fuss prior to 6 mths

The o/p has a lease so the 6 months is irrelevant. The o/p has a legal right to have heating and hot water. He should be getting letters off ASAP.

1874

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p has a lease so the 6 months is irrelevant. The o/p has a legal right to have heating and hot water. He should be getting letters off ASAP.

By that I mean, the OP could be asked to leave within 6 mths, unless that has changed, part 4 rights dont kick in until 6mths have elapsed, having a lease doesnt trump that as far as Im aware, but Im open to being corrected, I dont follow the changing of the goalposts since I sold up and got out. If that has not changed then they could be asked to leave legitimately for any reason.



I am not disputing the OP has a right to heating, but they may have to front the money themselves rather than be without electric or heat or whatever the utility is just to get things sorted if they dont get resolved promptly, doing so doesnt mean they wont get it back, obiously Im referring to a reconnection fee, not some kind of DD for outstanding payment. While they shouldnt have to do that, they might have to.

Claw Hammer

1874 wrote: »

By that I mean, the OP could be asked to leave within 6 mths, unless that has changed, part 4 rights dont kick in until 6mths have elapsed, having a lease doesnt trump that as far as Im aware, but Im open to being corrected, .

That is wrong. The tenant gets the better of the lease or part 4 rights. A fixed term lease can't be terminated early other than for specified reasosns (such as failure to pay rent).

GlobalSun

I spoke to the agent. They're getting this sorted.

They were not aware of the issue & the so-called bill the energy provider refers to was only issued a month ago. The agent agrees that cancelling a new tenant's connection due to debt on a previous account is unreasonable. I have personally never seen this before. I'm on the verge of logging in an official complaint with a relevant body. I've had accounts with various energy providers and never came across this issue before. A prior account debt should have no impact on a new tenant's connection.

The bill amounts to €57. Therefore a disconnection over a small bill a month overdue is a real joke.

The fault lies with the energy provider, not the agent. The energy provider should take it up with the previous account owner, not me. I'm actually going to ring the CCPC tomorrow to get advice. I have email trails evidencing my points.

They better not charge me a reconnection fee, otherwise it won't be good a day for whoever I'll be ringing that day.

I'm not going to withhold rent. It's the energy provider's fault to begin with. They should not be disconnecting me on the basis out an outstanding amount on someone else's account.

1874

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is wrong. The tenant gets the better of the lease or part 4 rights. A fixed term lease can't be terminated early other than for specified reasosns (such as failure to pay rent).

I think you are looking at information that is not there, unless the OP changed it, although they have deleted the post, there was nothing about a fixed term lease AT ALL when I read it, and not in the post when you quoted them 13 minutes after they posted in post 2, the first response by anyone? so where are you getting that information from??


Aside from that, the OP was asking if they could withold rent, so such a thing could lead to them being terminated early anyway.
SO, I would say, your post is wrong based on the fact you are referencing information that is not present/available, and as fixed term lease dont suit anyone imo, they are Id say less likely than a non fixed term lease.

1874

GlobalSun wrote: »

I spoke to the agent.

They were not aware of the issue & the so-called bill the energy provider refers to was only issued a month ago. The agent agrees that cancelling a new tenant's connection due to debt on a previous account is unreasonable. I have personally never seen this before. I'm on the verge of logging in an official complaint with a relevant body. I've had accounts with various energy providers and never came across this issue before. A prior account debt should have no impact on a new tenant's connection.

The bill amounts to €57. Therefore a disconnection over a small bill a month overdue is a real joke.

The fault lies with the energy provider, not the agent. The energy provider should take it up with the previous account owner, not me. I'm actually going to ring the CCPC tomorrow to get advice.

They better not charge me a reconnection fee, otherwise it won't be good a day for whoever I'll be ringing that day.

Problem solved, best thing imo is to conatct everyone and see who is pushing back and who is helping, job done
Utility companies can be difficult, in that they dont tell landlords about tenants bills, but Ive been on the end of the phone with them telling me they wont set up an account unless the outstanding bill is dealt with,
CCPC probably is a good course, but maybe throw a complaint into the energy regulator, that said, expect nothing done about it or ever to hear back from anyone imo.

Lenar3556

You are having very bad luck with these rentals globalsun.

Claw Hammer

1874 wrote: »

I think you are looking at information that is not there, unless the OP changed it, although they have deleted the post, there was nothing about a fixed term lease AT ALL when I read it, and not in the post when you quoted them 13 minutes after they posted in post 2, the first response by anyone? so where are you getting that information from??


Aside from that, the OP was asking if they could withold rent, so such a thing could lead to them being terminated early anyway.
SO, I would say, your post is wrong based on the fact you are referencing information that is not present/available, and as fixed term lease dont suit anyone imo, they are Id say less likely than a non fixed term lease.

The o/p specifically stated they had signed a lease. there is an agent involved. The overwhelming likelihood is that it is a fixed term lease.

1874

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p specifically stated they had signed a lease. there is an agent involved. The overwhelming likelihood is that it is a fixed term lease.

Signing a lease is also done with leases that arent fixed term, you typically sign any lease with an agent, so its completely speculation to say its a fixed term lease, they are rarer in my experience, going through an agent doesnt necessarily mean a fixed term lease is used at all.

Regardless of all that, the OP never mentioned a fixed term lease, the first mention of it was by yourself,
If the OP comes back and says they have a fixed term lease, that'd be a different thing, but it will be after any other discussion, so if you are correct, its a pure guess, pulled it out of thin air.



There is no overwhelming anything in terms of what lease might be signed, no one knows, unless you have the stats for all leases signed.
IMO most leases that are signed are not fixed term, they dont benefit tenants or landlords, but particularly the latter who offer the lease options generally.

ELM327

"Can I withhold rent?"
No

GlobalSun

1. It's not a fixed-term lease. I negotiated the lease to avoid a fixed-term one as I've become wary of rentals lately given my experience with my last rental.
2. The connection is still there, but I tried turning the heaters on and nothing. The heaters don't work, yet the hot water is fine. This is now a whole different issue. This apartment is in a large complex, so the heating is managed externally.
3. I rang both CCPC & the CRU, both of them told me they can't do anything about this. CRU told me the provider is outside their remit, CCPC redirected me to the CRU. A bit of a joke if you ask me.
4. Yes, these rentals are a hassle & I'm the verge of leaving Ireland/Dublin altogether as I'm quite fed up with the rental market and poor availability of properly functioning one bedroom apartments.

I moved into a house turned into apartment units, it was a mess, now I'm also facing BS with an apartment in a large complex. Can't catch a break.

Not a good look on the property manager to be honest. A. How were they not aware that there was an outstanding bills in the owner's name when the apartment had been vacant since the end of 2020? B. How are they not aware the heaters are not working?

The energy company is even worse. I've never dealt with such bad service ever.

1874

GlobalSun wrote: »

1. It's not a fixed-term lease. I negotiated the lease to avoid a fixed-term one as I've become wary of rentals lately given my experience with my last rental.
2. The connection is still there, but I tried turning the heaters on and nothing. The heaters don't work, yet the hot water is fine. This is now a whole different issue. This apartment is in a large complex, so the heating is managed externally.
3. I rang both CCPC & the CRU, both of them told me they can't do anything about this. CRU told me the provider is outside their remit, CCPC redirected me to the CRU. A bit of a joke if you ask me.
4. Yes, these rentals are a hassle & I'm the verge of leaving Ireland/Dublin altogether as I'm quite fed up with the rental market and poor availability of properly functioning one bedroom apartments.

I moved into a house turned into apartment units, it was a mess, now I'm also facing BS with an apartment in a large complex. Can't catch a break.

Not a good look on the property manager to be honest. A. How were they not aware that there was an outstanding bills in the owner's name when the apartment had been vacant since the end of 2020? B. How are they not aware the heaters are not working?

The energy company is even worse. I've never dealt with such bad service ever.

par for the course, you might have to slog through to get anywhere, expect to come up with the answers yourself,
Maybe a web search of the heater types? look for instructions, check circuit breakers are on? maybe there is a timer with a main on off or some kind of reset?

Set ups Ive seen in apartments, the heaters seemed to be a kind of wall mounted storage/maybe convector heater, In one instance owner could not get one of them to come on at all, the others appeared to be linked to a timer, wasnt convinced it worked or was effective.

1874 wrote: »

Problem solved, best thing imo is to conatct everyone and see who is pushing back and who is helping, job done
Utility companies can be difficult, in that they dont tell landlords about tenants bills, but Ive been on the end of the phone with them telling me they wont set up an account unless the outstanding bill is dealt with,
CCPC probably is a good course, but maybe throw a complaint into the energy regulator, that said, expect nothing done about it or ever to hear back from anyone imo.

I may have pre-empted your post by writing this, what you said in your last post, is no surprise, all these organisations, gawd only knows what they are for when they cannot fulfill their own remit, but I expected it.
Its like they make it intentionally difficult to progress any problems to a resolution

GlobalSun

1874 wrote: »

par for the course, you might have to slog through to get anywhere, expect to come up with the answers yourself,
Maybe a web search of the heater types? look for instructions, check circuit breakers are on? maybe there is a timer with a main on off or some kind of reset?

Set ups Ive seen in apartments, the heaters seemed to be a kind of wall mounted storage/maybe convector heater, In one instance owner could not get one of them to come on at all, the others appeared to be linked to a timer, wasnt convinced it worked or was effective.





I may have pre-empted your post by writing this, what you said in your last post, is no surprise, all these organisations, gawd only knows what they are for when they cannot fulfill their own remit, but I expected it.
Its like they make it intentionally difficult to progress any problems to a resolution

I'll try to have a look, but sure enough, if the hot water is working, there shouldn't be any further configuration to perform to get the heating working.

As far as those bodies go, they are perfectly useless and can't even provide you with proper advice. When I rang the CCPC, the advisor told me "the energy provider is entitled not to accept your registration request". OK, but that's not the issue here. They blindly interpret & apply regulation, even when it doesn't apply to the facts. I studied law for 5 years, so one thing I know is they didn't even look at the facts. I don't who trains these people, but they're clueless. When I told the advisor the issue wasn't revolving around the provider not wanting to set up my account, but around the unfair revocation of my service due to an unpaid bill relating to a former client, the CCPC advisor responded: "That's all the advice I can give. Hope it helps. Have a nice day". Besides, if the energy provider is the only energy provider for the whole complex and you don't have a choice, how are you supposed to sort this out? It's not like I can switch to another provider tomorrow.

I've lived in various countries and this sort of issue with an energy provider would never occur. Besides, some countries have rules against revoking heating/hot water service during the winter. I love Ireland, but some things are completely chaotic/backwards.

Marcusm

GlobalSun wrote: »

I'll try to have a look, but sure enough, if the hot water is working, there shouldn't be any further configuration to perform to get the heating working.

As far as those bodies go, they are perfectly useless and can't even provide you with proper advice. When I rang the CCPC, the advisor told me "the energy provider is entitled not to accept your registration request". OK, but that's not the issue here. They blindly interpret & apply regulation, even when it doesn't apply to the facts. I studied law for 5 years, so one thing I know is they didn't even look at the facts. I don't who trains these people, but they're clueless. When I told the advisor the issue wasn't revolving around the provider not wanting to set up my account, but around the unfair revocation of my service due to an unpaid bill relating to a former client, the CCPC advisor responded: "That's all the advice I can give. Hope it helps. Have a nice day". Besides, if the energy provider is the only energy provider for the whole complex and you don't have a choice, how are you supposed to sort this out? It's not like I can switch to another provider tomorrow.

I've lived in various countries and this sort of issue with an energy provider would never occur. Besides, some countries have rules against revoking heating/hot water service during the winter. I love Ireland, but some things are completely chaotic/backwards.

Was the apartment occupied before you? In some developments with gas heating you will find that there is a “summer mode” which may be as simple as a valve to stop hot water circulating around the heating circuit in summer. One twist of the valve obviates the need to turn off the individual radiators which is only half the job as the water would continue to circulate in the pipes.

Is it a large landlord, perhaps see if they hve any maintenance staff who could check these things.

GlobalSun

I actually notified the agency and requested for maintenance to check the issue.

They said they would reach out to me. It's been 3 days and no sign from maintenance.

This is now starting to seriously annoy me. I've dealt with agencies before and maintenance was at your door within 48 hours for more trivial issues.

No heating during the winter is a serious issue, even if it's just a case of switching from summer mode to winter mode.

You would think that after the outstanding bill debacle, they would make an effort.