Synthetic fuelled cars as clean as electric cars, says Porsche

drunkmonkey

Trials start in 2022, sounds great, could save the combustion engine. Should work with all cars.

"Porsche claims a car running on eFuel will have the same CO2 footprint as an EV"

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/203323/synthetic-fuelled-cars-as-clean-as-electric-cars-says-porsche

0lddog

'They would say that, wouldn't they' *



* as Mandy Rice-Davies almost said in the 60's

biko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Ixwasl-CY

newmember2

Hydrogen or similar is the way forward IMO - no need for a whole new unworkable infrastructure. Seems hydrogen will give better range than petrol/diesel.

Guy:Incognito

Just like when the airlines declared flying posed no covid risk to passengers I see no reason to question this at all.

Cookie_Monster

newmember? wrote: »

Hydrogen or similar is the way forward IMO - no need for a whole new unworkable infrastructure. Seems hydrogen will give better range than petrol/diesel.

hydrogen will need just as much new infrastructure if adopted on a mass scale. You cannot just use the current hydrocarbon stuff for it.

there no real clean source of hydrogen currently either, most of it is produced from gas.

redcup342

newmember? wrote: »

Hydrogen or similar is the way forward IMO - no need for a whole new unworkable infrastructure. Seems hydrogen will give better range than petrol/diesel.

What do you mean unworkable infrastructure ... the infrastructure is aleady there

All of the Developed world has electricity.

Cookie_Monster

redcup342 wrote: »

What do you mean unworkable infrastructure ... the infrastructure is aleady there

All of the Developed world has electricity.

most grids as currently setup cannot really deal with the demand mass charging would place on them. For example if we want to put one of the new 250kw charging points in our dealership the entire city block will need to be upgraded and have additional transformers installed to all for the draw while maintaining whats currently there.
Similarly most homes can take a max of 64amps draw from the grid, its not efficient for every home to have an effective charging (rather than charg for 12 hours overnight). A street where everyone has car chargers will require a complete overhaul of the local grid to enable supply at the level of power draw.

LeBash

redcup342 wrote: »

What do you mean unworkable infrastructure ... the infrastructure is aleady there

All of the Developed world has electricity.

Yes and no. Do we have the infrastructure to power all the cars, do we have the cables under the road to carry all the extra loads etc?

It will be an absolutely huge undertaking to move even 20% of ICE to Electric.

As an overall, I think Electric would be better but we are talking Billions in reality to allow everyone drive Electric cars and have the ability to charge them at public chargers, where with Hydrogen, individual garages will take the cost of dropping tanks into the ground.

Ill assume our governments would opt for the latter.

Henry Ford III

He might be right?

I'd take any claim from VAG with a pinch of salt though.

redcup342

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

most grids as currently setup cannot really deal with the demand mass charging would place on them. For example if we want to put one of the new 250kw charging points in our dealership the entire city block will need to be upgraded and have additional transformers installed to all for the draw while maintaining whats currently there.
Similarly most homes can take a max of 64amps draw from the grid, its not efficient for every home to have an effective charging (rather than charg for 12 hours overnight). A street where everyone has car chargers will require a complete overhaul of the local grid to enable supply at the level of power draw.

You do not need DC Rapid Charging for the majority of the population.

In my EV Driving over the past 4 years with various different vehicles I only use DC Rapid Charging for a very small percentage of my charging.

The car spends most of its time parked.

E.G. Yesterday I drove roughly 400km, From Dusseldorf down to Heimbach in Eifel, then to Ordensburg Vogelsang and then back to dusseldorf via Cologne, then to Essen and back to Dusseldorf again.

Over that drive I plugged in twice purely because the car was parked when I was doing other things.

You only really run into problems when you run the battery down to 5% and go looking for a Rapid Charger, for me it wastes a lot of time as the vehicle charges too quickly and there isn't really anything to do at a DC Rapid Charging location.

I only really every use DC Rapid Charging when going on long trips (say from Dusseldorf to Berlin) whis is pretty rare out of all the kilometers I drive.

But this "the grid can't handle it" statement is a myth, we have 60 AC Charging points in our office and the charging points will just balance the load depending on demand.

You don't need to run down to empty and charge to full, you just plug in whenever you park and you won't even notice you needed to charge.

Only use case this doesn't work for is consistent long range driving, even the City Shuttle service in Dusseldorf gets by completely fine with AC Charging, they do have 1 DC Rapid charger for top ups when needed.

But yeah I'll take an AC Charging source if it's going, I wouldn't be bothered to go sit at a DC Charging hub and read the paper.

Old diesel

Some immediate questions.....

1) made from what????.

2) energy required to produce????.

3) still the same 40 percent energy efficiency at best that current ICE engines achieve????.

4) might be best to deploy eFuels for things like aviation and ships where EV tech is harder.

Would be good to see if the option can evolve.

fryup

so how do you make this e fuel anyway? mix petrol with washing up liquid?

newmember2

fryup wrote: »

so how do you make this e fuel anyway? mix petrol with washing up liquid?

Here's an article concerning hydrogen fuel for two-wheeled transport but it could be applied across the board...


https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/hydrogen-powerpaste-goop-future-fuel-motorcycles-and-scooters

Cookie_Monster

redcup342 wrote: »

You do not need DC Rapid Charging for the majority of the population.
...

not now you don't. when EVs start making up 20% or 50% of the fleet you certainly will.

Eric Cartman

I will immediately throw all of my hope behind this, seems like a much better option than EV's and will allow me to 'be green' in a lovely V8.

selectamatic

Any idea what the octane rating will be? :pac:

Padre_Pio

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

most grids as currently setup cannot really deal with the demand mass charging would place on them. For example if we want to put one of the new 250kw charging points in our dealership the entire city block will need to be upgraded and have additional transformers installed to all for the draw while maintaining whats currently there.
Similarly most homes can take a max of 64amps draw from the grid, its not efficient for every home to have an effective charging (rather than charg for 12 hours overnight). A street where everyone has car chargers will require a complete overhaul of the local grid to enable supply at the level of power draw.

UK did a study where they could switch to 40% electric with no upgrades. It's beneficial in some aspects as it balanced load .
Most people slow charge overnight, when theres no load on the network. Rapid charging is only necessary when you need to stop halfway on a journey. Slow charging is encouraged through night rates.

If we look ahead 10 years and optimistically say 20% own EVs, the range of EVs may be 400-600km per charge, more than most will use. Just plug in when you're home. Job done. Of course this only suits people who can have home chargers, but again, realistically, that's the majority of the car owning population. On street chargers will have to be made to suit the rest, not that big a deal.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, is not workable on small scale like personal cars. Maybe trucks, most likely ships and trains. Infrastructure is difficult, hydrogen is expensive to make, expensive to transport and expensive to store. Need a whole new infrastructure. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule, and is stored at high pressure, and is flammable, so the risk is huge.

Padre_Pio

Why call it "e fuel"? Surely the E stands for electric?
Just marketing ****?

This all seems like a last gasp for a dying industry trying to keep ICEs relevant. Will be interesting to see if there's any credibility to the efficiency claims. My guess is not.

Electric cars are no panacea to ICEs, but they're the best we have right now. I haven't seen anything that's a viable alternative.

redcup342

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not now you don't. when EVs start making up 20% or 50% of the fleet you certainly will.

You just need more Points, they aren't even "Chargers" they are essentially a fancy switch to plug into the Grid, the charger is in your Car, almost zero maintainence and cheap to roll out.

As long as you have the ability to plug in close to the places you normally spend your time you'll never be queuing to charge up.

Or at least that's my experience across Europe so far, overnight on a standard plug socket will even get you a decent amount of range.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

most grids as currently setup cannot really deal with the demand mass charging would place on them. For example if we want to put one of the new 250kw charging points in our dealership the entire city block will need to be upgraded and have additional transformers installed to all for the draw while maintaining whats currently there...........

Not Ireland surely?

liamog

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Similarly most homes can take a max of 64amps draw from the grid, its not efficient for every home to have an effective charging (rather than charg for 12 hours overnight). A street where everyone has car chargers will require a complete overhaul of the local grid to enable supply at the level of power draw.

Charging for 12 hours overnight at 32A would net you a weekly range of 2,800km , I'm not really sure why anyone would need even that high an amount.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

Charging for 12 hours overnight at 32A would net you a weekly range of 2,800km , I'm not really sure why anyone would need even that high an amount.

Someone will be in now with the 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 case of people who do drive more than that and claim that proves that electric cars are useless. :P

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone will be in now with the 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 case of people who do drive more than that and claim that proves that electric cars are useless. :P

Ahh of course, that average Irish driver who does 145,000km per year, same person has a super bladder and also can never stop their car to charge it, and for some reason they do a significant amount of the mileage at German motorway speeds.

kirving

liamog wrote: »

Charging for 12 hours overnight at 32A would net you a weekly range of 2,800km , I'm not really sure why anyone would need even that high an amount.

There's only so much averaging you can do though. Traffic jams on a road are not determined by the road's total capacity over a 12 hour period, it's the commuting times that matter, and mass electric car charging will need very strong incentives to balance the lod over longer periods of time as you suggest.

The entire car commuting population arrive home at 6pm and plug in all together, or at 6.30am on a cold morning, and the pre-heating (and charging) kicking in at the same time on everyones car is what could present a problem.

liamog

kirving wrote: »

There's only so much averaging you can do though. Traffic jams on a road are not determined by the road's total capacity over a 12 hour period, it's the commuting times that matter, and mass electric car charging will need very strong incentives to balance the lod over longer periods of time as you suggest.

The entire car commuting population arrive home at 6pm and plug in all together, or at 6.30am on a cold morning, and the pre-heating (and charging) kicking in at the same time on everyones car is what could present a problem.

That's why there's a big investment in smart metering, the idea is that the grid incentivise you to use electricity at times by manipulating prices. There have been a good few network studies by distribution networks, so at this point it's a well quantified issue, which orgs like the national grid in the UK believe to be effectively not a problem at all.

?Cee?view

Old diesel wrote: »

Some immediate questions.....

1) made from what????.

2) energy required to produce????.

3) still the same 40 percent energy efficiency at best that current ICE engines achieve????.

4) might be best to deploy eFuels for things like aviation and ships where EV tech is harder.

Would be good to see if the option can evolve.

At least half of those questions are answered in the video Biko posted.

?Cee?view

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why call it "e fuel"? Surely the E stands for electric?
Just marketing ****?

environmental? efficient? eco?

?Cee?view

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I will immediately throw all of my hope behind this, seems like a much better option than EV's and will allow me to 'be green' in a lovely V8.

It's a motoring forum and you're the only one who alluded to what's important! I watched that Video that Biko posted straight away and delighted to hear that ICE music can survive.

redcup342

kirving wrote: »

There's only so much averaging you can do though. Traffic jams on a road are not determined by the road's total capacity over a 12 hour period, it's the commuting times that matter, and mass electric car charging will need very strong incentives to balance the lod over longer periods of time as you suggest.

The entire car commuting population arrive home at 6pm and plug in all together, or at 6.30am on a cold morning, and the pre-heating (and charging) kicking in at the same time on everyones car is what could present a problem.

If you are driving at rush hour and sitting in traffic jams/slow moving traffic and EV is even better for your needs as you will achieve a range over the expected amount.

If you have home charging you plug in when you get home and have it timed to kick in when your night saver rate kicks in.

Or plug in at work, shopping center or wherever.

Basically just try to plug in whenever you park the car and you won't have a problem, you don't need a centralised place to 'fill' your tank anymore so going from Empty to full no longer makes sense.

kirving

kirving wrote: »

There's only so much averaging you can do though. Traffic jams on a road are not determined by the road's total capacity over a 12 hour period, it's the commuting times that matter, and mass electric car charging will need very strong incentives to balance the lod over longer periods of time as you suggest.

The entire car commuting population arrive home at 6pm and plug in all together, or at 6.30am on a cold morning, and the pre-heating (and charging) kicking in at the same time on everyones car is what could present a problem.

As above, that's where smart metering/control comes in. Though as it is we already export plenty through interconnection most nights. As more wind come online that's even more "excess" overnight that can be used up instead of exported.

fryup

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Electric cars are no panacea to ICEs, but they're the best we have right now. I haven't seen anything that's a viable alternative.

LPG ?

TheBoyConor

redcup342 wrote: »

What do you mean unworkable infrastructure ... the infrastructure is aleady there

All of the Developed world has electricity.

Do you not know the difference between electricity and hydrogen or what?