Jaguars for pro 16

VANG1

Rugby paper article says the Jaguares to join pro 16 based in Bilbao Spain. Would be fantastic boost.

Miriam Gonzalez Durantez

Decent news. Will make the League more competitive and attractive bringing trips to Spain into the picture for away games. Will also potentially help build the game in Spain bringing locals to games. Do you have a link to the article?

Edit : also read somewhere a month or two ago that the Stormers had agreed a lease on Stade Francaise stadium for home games in Pro 16. Not sure how that will work but you’d think it will be more convenient than travelling 12 hours for away games.

awec

Miriam Gonzalez Durantez wrote: »

Decent news. Will make the League more competitive and attractive bringing trips to Spain into the picture for away games. Will also potentially help build the game in Spain bringing locals to games. Do you have a link to the article?

Edit : also read somewhere a month or two ago that the Stormers had agreed a lease on Stade Francaise stadium for home games in Pro 16. Not sure how that will work but you’d think it will be more convenient than travelling 12 hours for away games.

I really hope this isn't true and this isn't the road they are going to take.

Surely if this is to succeed they need to build local interest in South Africa. I don't see how it would be possible, are their players going to up sticks to France for months at a time?

VANG1

Rugby has sold out to CVC so its now all about money and TV audiences.

thomond2006

VANG1 wrote: »

Rugby has sold out to CVC so its now all about money and TV audiences.

It was always all about money and TV audiences.

hahashake

awec wrote: »

I really hope this isn't true and this isn't the road they are going to take.

Surely if this is to succeed they need to build local interest in South Africa. I don't see how it would be possible, are their players going to up sticks to France for months at a time?

Likewise a heavily weakened Jaguares playing in Bilbao is arguably not good for Argentinian rugby.

Miriam Gonzalez Durantez

There are undoubtedly question marks over how it will work and there are pros and cons to each of the concerns raised above. Agreed playing in SA is probably the better route for home attendances and making it more attractive for travelling fans. However the reverse could also be said for the Argentinian team. Time zone differences and building the game in Spain would probably be preferable to games in Argentina.

As regards CVC I believe this would go ahead without their input and it was proposed long before their arrival to the Pro14. How it will proceed with their input is a concern the liberal opening of international markets might not sit well with some. If it is done with agreement of the home Unions and not just solely the super franchises this could lead to a more secure long term arrangement that would see the inclusion of home crowds might be the way forward.

I would say proceed with caution but I wouldn’t rule it out as a viable future for the pro game in Ireland. Some posters on here have highlighted the dangers of jumping in bed with an expanded premiership where the Celtic clubs are second class citizens and I believe this is the case.

The main concern raised above is the payoff between having long travel times for away games vs keeping the franchise in the nation of origin

bilston

Don't get the negativity...personally I'd support this.

Jaguares
Bulls
Sharks
Lions
Stormers
Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Connacht
plus the rest

Once you sort out the logistics there is a very good competition in there IMO.

VANG1

VANG1 wrote: »

Rugby has sold out to CVC so its now all about money and TV audiences.

Since 1995

PMC83

awec wrote: »

I really hope this isn't true and this isn't the road they are going to take.

Surely if this is to succeed they need to build local interest in South Africa. I don't see how it would be possible, are their players going to up sticks to France for months at a time?

I suspect this could just be for the Rainbow cup, and to suit the current climate. Theres no way the SA teams would give up home advantage.


Hopefully next season if things are better we can look forward to the provinces in durban and the various other spots

thomond2006

There's a few angles to this.

From a fan perspective, this could be a cool weekend trip. If the days work out, you could easily take the two trip hour trip east to Biarritz/Bayonne for some rugby there too. San Sebastian is in the middle of that route and is a cracking city.

A quick look at wikipedia shows that many of the 2020 Jaguares players have moved elsewhere since Covid. Montoya and Moroni for example are at Leicester. Chapparo is with Bristol. Cubelli is in Australia with the Western Force. It's very similar to what has happened to the Cheetahs. With no certainty on the team's future, players have bolted. What kind of team/lineup would the Jaguares be able to field? I'd be very skeptical. The last thing the ProXX needs is another Southern Kings where games are a complete waste of time.

At the same time, Argentina needs to restore the pathway to test level that has been in place since 2015. They need somewhere to play.

awec

Yes the Jaguars thing only makes sense if they are bringing Pumas with them.

If it's some development team / B side then the league is already overflowing with those. You would hope the ProWhatever learnt their lesson after the Cheetahs / Kings.

hahashake

The Jaguares were completely gutted at the end of last season with the majority of players going to other clubs across the globe. Not sure how you can convince them to play in Bilbao unless the money is competitive.

thomond2006

hahashake wrote: »

The Jaguares were completely gutted at the end of last season with the majority of players going to other clubs across the globe. Not sure how you can convince them to play in Bilbao unless the money is competitive.

They're in a pretty desperate situation. Any rugby against fellow professional outfits would be taken at this stage.

thomond2006

The full list of departees is here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_Super_Rugby_transfers#Jaguares

Unless Los Jaguares can magic players out of thin air, I don't think this can be a runner at all.

hahashake

thomond2006 wrote: »

They're in a pretty desperate situation. Any rugby against fellow professional outfits would be taken at this stage.

Sure, but to awec's point, there aren't many (any?) top level players left. And if you are an up and coming player, it's not choosing between an Argentinian team and a European team, it's choosing between 2 European teams.

Cookiemunster

thomond2006 wrote: »

The full list of departees is here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_Super_Rugby_transfers#Jaguares

Unless Los Jaguares can magic players out of thin air, I don't think this can be a runner at all.

The IT article said that they're talking about a 2 year lead in, so the 2022/23 season at the earliest. That's plenty of time to build the squad back up.

thomond2006

hahashake wrote: »

Sure, but to awec's point, there aren't many (any?) top level players left. And if you are an up and coming player, it's not choosing between an Argentinian team and a European team, it's choosing between 2 European teams.

Sorry, I meant from the UAR/Jaguares point of view. They'll take any competition at this rate.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The IT article said that they're talking about a 2 year lead in, so the 2022/23 season at the earliest. That's plenty of time to build the squad back up.

That makes far more sense.

Squidgy Black

hahashake wrote: »

Sure, but to awec's point, there aren't many (any?) top level players left. And if you are an up and coming player, it's not choosing between an Argentinian team and a European team, it's choosing between 2 European teams.

Yeah it's an interesting one. There isn't that real push like there is with say South African players to get themselves and their families to Europe for economic/safety reasons, and as you say, the money would have to match other European clubs if they're going to have to make the move anyways.

And then of course the question of development, do they keep their underage/academy setup in Argentina? Which then means younger players have to be ferried back and forward if they want to get involved in the senior setup

Cookiemunster

hahashake wrote: »

Sure, but to awec's point, there aren't many (any?) top level players left. And if you are an up and coming player, it's not choosing between an Argentinian team and a European team, it's choosing between 2 European teams.

It's choosing between a union controlled team where your playing time is looked after or a European team where they'll get their monies worth out of you. Not quite the same situation.
And if they linked Pumas elegibility to playing for them, they could end up with a decent squad.

hahashake

Love the optimism. Just don't think any team can recover after losing 80% of their players, at least not for a long time. And making it tied to Pumas eligibility would only weaken them if they have the money to buy decent players.

Cookiemunster

hahashake wrote: »

Love the optimism. Just don't think any team can recover after losing 80% of their players, at least not for a long time. And making it tied to Pumas eligibility would only weaken them if they have the money to buy decent players.

You seem to forget that they didn't even exist until 2015 so they actually originally built from 0 players. And that they only competed in 4 seasons of super rugby. I doubt building them back up again would be much of an issue.

hahashake

Yes, but the Jaguares were the Pumas minus a few players. e.g. 2015 Pumas semifinal side had 11/15 starters going to the 2016 Jaguares. Now the Pumas are majority contracted in other clubs, so unless they can claw them back (excuse the pun), they are starting from a much lower level.