Land reclamation

Lazybones

Hello good people of the farming forum. Looking for some guidance please.
I am looking to reclaim about 25 acres of land that has been neglected and is now overgrown scrubland. The intention is not to change any field boundaries, but to clean up the land and re-seed to make it suitable for grazing.
Is planning permission or permission from the Dept of Agriculture needed? What is the process for obtaining permission?
If anyone has guideline costs for recent reclamation work completed, would be grateful if you could share.
Thanks in advance

k mac

Don't think there is any planning required anyway.

Lazybones

k mac wrote: »

Don't think there is any planning required anyway.

Thanks K Mac, appreciate you taking the time to reply.

TooOldBoots

k mac wrote: »

Don't think there is any planning required anyway.

Wrong

you need planning and an environment impact assessment for any land reclamation above 0.1 hectare.
This was sneaked through by the government unchallenged

Dinzee Conlee

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Wrong

you need planning and an environment impact assessment for any land reclamation above 0.1 hectare.
This was sneaked through by the government unchallenged

I didn't know this. 0.1Ha is very small... Do you have a link?

endainoz

Op how overgrown and neglected are we talking? I know a few lads around that would happily let a few donkeys or goats off in a rough place to clean it up over a year or so. Would work out a lot cheaper that getting a machine in, if the main boundaries are fenced well of course.

Birdnuts

endainoz wrote: »

Op how overgrown and neglected are we talking? I know a few lads around that would happily let a few donkeys or goats off in a rough place to clean it up over a year or so. Would work out a lot cheaper that getting a machine in, if the main boundaries are fenced well of course.

Yeah - took a long term lease on similar land next to my place in North Mayo a few years back. They and the Galloways did a fine job on it:)

Lazybones

endainoz wrote: »

Op how overgrown and neglected are we talking? I know a few lads around that would happily let a few donkeys or goats off in a rough place to clean it up over a year or so. Would work out a lot cheaper that getting a machine in, if the main boundaries are fenced well of course.

Hi endainoz,
Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it.
The land is well overgrown with hazel and whitethorn.In its current state you could not let animals into it as they would likely injure themselves. Machine would be needed to clear to cut or to mulch first before it would be safe or practical to let animals in.
Please do keep the keep the advice coming regarding the current situation on requirements for reclamation and costs also if you have recent experience.
Google searches on the subject do not give great insight. All I can see so far is that permision seem to be required for wetlands reclamation. The land I am considering is all dry land with no water or rivers on it.
Thanks all.

jd_12345

Lazybones wrote: »

Hello good people of the farming forum. Looking for some guidance please.
I am looking to reclaim about 25 acres of land that has been neglected and is now overgrown scrubland. The intention is not to change any field boundaries, but to clean up the land and re-seed to make it suitable for grazing.
Is planning permission or permission from the Dept of Agriculture needed? What is the process for obtaining permission?
If anyone has guideline costs for recent reclamation work completed, would be grateful if you could share.
Thanks in advance

It’s hard to tell without photos etc. whether it needs planning. More than likely there’ll be no need for planning unless there was ever forestry grants drawn on it.
Talk to a local plant hire/ digger contractor regarding whether it’ll need planning and potential costs. This is usually a quiet time of year for them and most of them would be fairly helpful I would imagine.
The bad news is that if it is 25 acres my best advice would be to do 5 acres at a time and do it properly. If it’s overgrown and needing clearing you’ll probably be talking well over 2/3 grand an acre (good land is cheap!!!)
The other thing is to talk to local timber sellers see are they interested in taking down whatever good trees are in it for use themselves. Unless there’s a lot in it they won’t pay you for the timber but it’d be cleared.
If there’s a lot of trees/furze in it then your problem will be top soil. When you pull them away with a digger you’ll take half the field with you. If there’s furze etc It’d definitely be worth spraying with Grazon Pro. This will kill the plant and allow grass to grow underneath and make it easier to clear the scrub.
Get recommendations for good digger men from neighbours as the wrong fella on a digger will do more harm than good. Like I said earlier if it hasn’t been farmed in a while top soil may be an issue as some digger men love to bury it and bring up the sub soil. This is grand in April/May and August/September as you’ll have perfect conditions but the rest of the time it’ll grow nothing and look yellow/hungry.
If the land is wet you’re talking almost 4k an acre if you’re doing none of the work yourself. As well as that you’ll be putting 18-6-12, 10-10-20 (expensive in comparison to KAN/UREA/CAN) and as much slurry and dung as you can get your hands on for a couple of years in order to build up the ground.
I don’t mean to scare you but if the land hasn’t been farmed in a while it’ll take quiet a bit of money. It’s very satisfying work though

jd_12345

Lazybones wrote: »

Hello good people of the farming forum. Looking for some guidance please.
I am looking to reclaim about 25 acres of land that has been neglected and is now overgrown scrubland. The intention is not to change any field boundaries, but to clean up the land and re-seed to make it suitable for grazing.
Is planning permission or permission from the Dept of Agriculture needed? What is the process for obtaining permission?
If anyone has guideline costs for recent reclamation work completed, would be grateful if you could share.
Thanks in advance

Talk to a local digger man. Ask neighbours for recommendations. They’ll be able to give you rough costings and tell you whether you need planning or not. I’d say only if forestry grants were previously drawn that there’d be need for planning.

Depending on the quality of the land, the amount of furze/ trees you’re talking anywhere in the region of 2-5 thousand euro per acre (good land is cheap!!!) There ain’t many shortcuts unfortunately and it’s ground that will take a lot of farming and money put into it.
It’s very satisfying work though!

Lazybones

jd_12345 wrote: »

Talk to a local digger man. Ask neighbours for recommendations. They’ll be able to give you rough costings and tell you whether you need planning or not. I’d say only if forestry grants were previously drawn that there’d be need for planning.

Depending on the quality of the land, the amount of furze/ trees you’re talking anywhere in the region of 2-5 thousand euro per acre (good land is cheap!!!) There ain’t many shortcuts unfortunately and it’s ground that will take a lot of farming and money put into it.
It’s very satisfying work though!

Thanks jd_12345,

Very practical and helpful advice there, fair play to you. Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered and detailed reply.
All the point you made are exactly what I needed to hear. Especially like your point about doing it in smaller pieces and doing it right.
It's a project that if done right will be very satisfying. I better start making enquiries and find a good digger man! Thanks again! :-)

minerleague

Lazybones wrote: »

Thanks jd_12345,

Very practical and helpful advice there, fair play to you. Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered and detailed reply.
All the point you made are exactly what I needed to hear. Especially like your point about doing it in smaller pieces and doing it right.
It's a project that if done right will be very satisfying. I better start making enquiries and find a good digger man! Thanks again! :-)

First off don't think you will need permission for this, permission is required if you were draining or recontouring land. Secondly I'd prefer to do it all in the one go and get finished main clearing, heaping bushes ( need permission to burn these then! but that's another story)

Lazybones

minerleague wrote: »

First off don't think you will need permission for this, permission is required if you were draining or recontouring land. Secondly I'd prefer to do it all in the one go and get finished main clearing, heaping bushes ( need permission to burn these then! but that's another story)

Thanks minerleague,
The forum here is great for advice and guidance. It's good to get the steer in the right direction from the wise heads here. Thank you!

Dinzee Conlee

One thing to keep in mind is however much you reclaim - you need to make sure you mind it afterwards...

Would advise having a plan on how you plan to mind it, it’ll go back a lot quicker than you’d think if it’s not minded...

Base price

OP - here is a link that may help you. TwoOldBoots referred to a Environmental Impact Assessment earlier in his post but the link does not mention planning permission.

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/161a7-environmental-impact-assessment-screening-service/

Lazybones

Base price wrote: »

OP - here is a link that may help you. TwoOldBoots referred to a Environmental Impact Assessment earlier in his post but the link does not mention planning permission.

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/161a7-environmental-impact-assessment-screening-service/

Thanks Base,
Interesting reading there, will look into it. Thanks for the help :-)

Capercaillie

The 25 acres sounds like a great wildlife habitat for threatened species like grasshopper warbler/whitethroat. Just something to consider before it is removed.

Lazybones

Capercaillie wrote: »

The 25 acres sounds like a great wildlife habitat for threatened species like grasshopper warbler/whitethroat. Just something to consider before it is removed.

Thanks. A fair point. There are areas that may be left natural due to roughness of terrain or because they just look beautiful. Will look to strike a balance and be practical.
Having grown up here, I want to do what's best for all be they human or wildlife....after all we are only passing through. Want to leave things in a good way for those generations to come.

lakill Farm

what size diameter of round stone do you use around a twin wall JFC pipe ?

Sounds perfect for bee hives

Hard Knocks

lakill Farm wrote: »

what size diameter of round stone do you use around a twin wall JFC pipe ?

Think it was 2” washed we used

Bass Reeves

As far as I know it is only if you are recontouring you need planning permission. If it is most light bushes 4-6'' in diameter I consider a mulcher. P&K value is huge. Lots of land only bulldoze everything into a heap and burn it. Any fertilizer value hose up.in smoke or is in the heap of ashes. As long as there is not serious rock on the place a mulcher is ideal. You have to spray afterwards with a scrub killer such as grazon 90 to prevent there regrowth but the fertility value of the shredded scrub would be huge. I think the. Its is about 1k an acre depending on how thick the scrub is and you will have the spraying cost on top of it.

Water John

Avoid limestone chip in drains as it degrades over time.

Lazybones

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As far as I know it is only if you are recontouring you need planning permission. If it is most light bushes 4-6'' in diameter I consider a mulcher. P&K value is huge. Lots of land only bulldoze everything into a heap and burn it. Any fertilizer value hose up.in smoke or is in the heap of ashes. As long as there is not serious rock on the place a mulcher is ideal. You have to spray afterwards with a scrub killer such as grazon 90 to prevent there regrowth but the fertility value of the shredded scrub would be huge. I think the. Its is about 1k an acre depending on how thick the scrub is and you will have the spraying cost on top of it.

Thanks Bass,

Mulching sounds like a great idea to put goodness back into the land. Sounds like a very smart way to approach it, to maximise what's there. Grateful to you!

Water John

Doing a bit of study on Regenerative Agriculture. Depends what type of stuff is there but you could, mob graze it with or without mulching. The way that is done is you put a lot a cattle onto a small area and you move them everyday.
It's important that the animals are asked to eat about 50% of what is there and they (being densely stocked), trample in the rest of it. The bugs and microbes break that down and improve the soil.
Do not set stock, that wouldn't work, the trampling is the key.
A few pics would be great. Says the fella who has failed at that himself.

countryjimbo

Lazybones wrote: »

I am looking to reclaim about 25 acres of land ........

I think it would be safer to refer to this as cleaning up the land, reclaiming while a broad term usually refers to seeding bogland which sounds very different to what you want to do.

Dinzee Conlee

Water John wrote: »

Doing a bit of study on Regenerative Agriculture. Depends what type of stuff is there but you could, mob graze it with or without mulching. The way that is done is you put a lot a cattle onto a small area and you move them everyday.
It's important that the animals are asked to eat about 50% of what is there and they (being densely stocked), trample in the rest of it. The bugs and microbes break that down and improve the soil.
Do not set stock, that wouldn't work, the trampling is the key.
A few pics would be great. Says the fella who has failed at that himself.

I wonder how often does the trampling actually work Water?

I know it works for some people, but I wonder how does it work in practice, and how many 'rotations' it takes?

I have some rough ground and am toying with the idea of getting pigs to try to clear it... That could change again though...

Lazybones

Appreciate all the ideas and thoughts ye are sharing folks. It's great to tap into the wisdom here on the forum!

Water John

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I wonder how often does the trampling actually work Water?

I know it works for some people, but I wonder how does it work in practice, and how many 'rotations' it takes?

I have some rough ground and am toying with the idea of getting pigs to try to clear it... That could change again though...

OP has 25 acres. The fastest rotation I would see on that would be 50 days. That would be 0.5 ac/day. That would take a good few cattle. Think you'd be quite surprised at the new growth that would come through.
An example given to me was, what happens with the sides of a road. It's never grazed or mowed by the new growth comes through each year. The use of the trampling cattle and their hoof action speeds that up.

Actually think the rotation could be slower, with 0.25ac/day. Then it would take 100 days. Start on the 1st March, next round would start in early June. This long rotation would have the additional bonus of making seeds available to be either eaten and some passing out in the dung or directly trampled in.
Think it would be remarkably improved by Mid Sept and some lovely healthy cattle.
The other point is, other than the labour of moving, the job would be done at zero cost. In fact the cattle gain should turn a profit.

If I was near the OP I'd love to have a go at it.

Bass Reeves

Water John wrote: »

OP has 25 acres. The fastest rotation I would see on that would be 50 days. That would be 0.5 ac/day. That would take a good few cattle. Think you'd be quite surprised at the new growth that would come through.
An example given to me was, what happens with the sides of a road. It's never grazed or mowed by the new growth comes through each year. The use of the trampling cattle and their hoof action speeds that up.

Actually think the rotation could be slower, with 0.25ac/day. Then it would take 100 days. Start on the 1st March, next round would start in early June. This long rotation would have the additional bonus of making seeds available to be either eaten and some passing out in the dung or directly trampled in.
Think it would be remarkably improved by Mid Sept and some lovely healthy cattle.
The other point is, other than the labour of moving, the job would be done at zero cost. In fact the cattle gain should turn a profit.

If I was near the OP I'd love to have a go at it.

Biggest problem would be weight gain on the cattle. Cattle forced to graze down and trample scrub like that would struggle to put on weight. To keep land like that you would need to start a second rotation 25-40 days after the first heavy grazing.

Water John

Bass they would be two diff systems really. The trampling and not heavy grazing is the key to the rotation. The cattle aren't forced to eat all the food, they can be choosey. Often they eat the seed heads first, maybe not so much of the grass butt, that rots down as fertiliser.