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17HM2 any one ever see it here in Eire

  • 14-02-2021 6:59pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    Has any one ever seen it offered out there in dealer-land.

    I seen a rifle chambered for it in McBrides of Athlone once. He had a few boxes of ammo for it but it seemed crazy to buy a rifle that only had a few boxes of ammo available..

    It is it still being made by CCI and Hornady..

    It should have been a real contender with its flat trajectory and adaptability into the existing 22lr platform being supersonic out to 200yards


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    There were a bow boxes of it in Outdoor Sports in Mullingar for years. I've never seen a rifle chambered in it.

    I think it would have been a much better success if it had come to the market before the HMR. It was always seen as the poorer slower relation. We had been awed by the HRM blowing up coke cans, the HM2 just wasn't exciting.
    Based on my reading on rimfire central, some lads see it as the ultimate squirrel rifle but others say it damages to much meat. For whatever reason it didn't really gain traction.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Feisar wrote: »
    I think it would have been a much better success if it had come to the market before the HMR. It was always seen as the poorer slower relation. We had been awed by the HRM blowing up coke cans, the HM2 just wasn't exciting.
    I think this is accurate. It slots in between two established rounds, but ends up overthrowing neither. It's basically the same improvement to the LR, that the HMR made to the WMR. And while I think it's fair to say that the HMR replaced (or is replacing) the WMR, the 22LR is just too established.

    I do think that the WSM may have been more successful than the HMR if it was first to market. Although, I've heard that the HMR is more consistently accurate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    The WMR suffers as a result of it velocity.. It just at the wrong place.. Frontal drag and rear drag are extreme at 1900fps..

    Have ye seen "Mark and Sam after Work"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkyV_Hz1i8&ab_channel=MarkandSamAfterWork

    The old 22wmr is still offering some craic :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Frontal drag and rear drag are extreme at 1900fps..

    What's the difference between frontal and rear drag


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    Mellor wrote: »
    What's the difference between frontal and rear drag

    Besides the obvious..

    Projectiles at high velocities above 1900 fps suffer less rear drag. The many contours upon their surface structure interact with the air flow. At higher velocities, they seem to avoid the rear drag effect as the frontal shock wave shields the rear body of the bullet and this shock wave only fades at a spatially significant point well aft of the travelling bullet.
    In a perfectly stable bullet, at a high velocities greater than (circa) 2000 fps the only appreciable interaction in is purely a supersonic one at the frontal portion of the bullet

    Slower rounds can both develop frontal or lateral sonic waves from different bullet facets but at the slower speeds the frontal sonic shield is not strong enough to expel the rear pressure on the aft portions of the bullet.. thus rear drag starts to present.

    As frontal pressure drops, more air is upset at the rear portions of the bullet.

    This means that 222wmr suffer both significant frontal drag as well as rear drag... and yes other bullets suffer this too..
    However,
    The main problem is this: the 22wmr encounters this drag-dynamic before the round has settled down into its flight. Any anomalous perturbations in the rotation or spin of an unsettled projectile are simple exacerbated by this multi faceted drag which presents itself in the form of the ubiquitous 'lack of accuracy for which 22 wmr is renowned for..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    30gr v-max WMR. MV 2200 fps. Think I was getting 1 1/2" groups at 120 yds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    30gr v-max WMR. MV 2200 fps. Think I was getting 1 1/2" groups at 120 yds.

    I had an Auschwitz 1516 in 22wmr..
    Loved the 33gr Remington acutips. It would shoot well under 1moa. I think that i damaged the crown or wore out the rifling either with aggressive cleaning or over use..

    Anyway groups went from .75moa to 2moa over night..

    I never did figure out why..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭ extremetaz


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    I had an Auschwitz 1516 in 22wmr..

    Pretty sure you mean Anschutz...(?):D


  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭ solarwinds


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Besides the obvious..

    Projectiles at high velocities above 1900 fps suffer less rear drag. The many contours upon their surface structure interact with the air flow. At higher velocities, they seem to avoid the rear drag effect as the frontal shock wave shields the rear body of the bullet and this shock wave only fades at a spatially significant point well aft of the travelling bullet.
    In a perfectly stable bullet, at a high velocities greater than (circa) 2000 fps the only appreciable interaction in is purely a supersonic one at the frontal portion of the bullet

    Slower rounds can both develop frontal or lateral sonic waves from different bullet facets but at the slower speeds the frontal sonic shield is not strong enough to expel the rear pressure on the aft portions of the bullet.. thus rear drag starts to present.

    As frontal pressure drops, more air is upset at the rear portions of the bullet.

    This means that 222wmr suffer both significant frontal drag as well as rear drag... and yes other bullets suffer this too..
    However,
    The main problem is this: the 22wmr encounters this drag-dynamic before the round has settled down into its flight. Any anomalous perturbations in the rotation or spin of an unsettled projectile are simple exacerbated by this multi faceted drag which presents itself in the form of the ubiquitous 'lack of accuracy for which 22 wmr is renowned for..

    Bet your sorry you asked now, jesus I had to read that twice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Besides the obvious..

    Projectiles at high velocities above 1900 fps suffer less rear drag. The many contours upon their surface structure interact with the air flow. At higher velocities, they seem to avoid the rear drag effect as the frontal shock wave shields the rear body of the bullet and this shock wave only fades at a spatially significant point well aft of the travelling bullet.
    In a perfectly stable bullet, at a high velocities greater than (circa) 2000 fps the only appreciable interaction in is purely a supersonic one at the frontal portion of the bullet

    Slower rounds can both develop frontal or lateral sonic waves from different bullet facets but at the slower speeds the frontal sonic shield is not strong enough to expel the rear pressure on the aft portions of the bullet.. thus rear drag starts to present.

    As frontal pressure drops, more air is upset at the rear portions of the bullet.

    This means that 222wmr suffer both significant frontal drag as well as rear drag... and yes other bullets suffer this too..
    However,
    The main problem is this: the 22wmr encounters this drag-dynamic before the round has settled down into its flight. Any anomalous perturbations in the rotation or spin of an unsettled projectile are simple exacerbated by this multi faceted drag which presents itself in the form of the ubiquitous 'lack of accuracy for which 22 wmr is renowned for..

    Does this answer why .22LR high velocity bullets drift more than subs at the same bullet weight? The high velocity stuff is at the wrong speed?

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Besides the obvious..

    Projectiles at high velocities above 1900 fps suffer less rear drag. The many contours upon their surface structure interact with the air flow. At higher velocities, they seem to avoid the rear drag effect as the frontal shock wave shields the rear body of the bullet and this shock wave only fades at a spatially significant point well aft of the travelling bullet.
    In a perfectly stable bullet, at a high velocities greater than (circa) 2000 fps the only appreciable interaction in is purely a supersonic one at the frontal portion of the bullet

    I think the obvious was what I was after. :pac: :pac: :pac:

    I assumed frontal drag is the cross section drag aka frontal area. I was just not sure what rear drag was relating to.
    Seams you are talking about the air flow drag over the shape. ie the drag difference between a sphere and a half-sphere without the rear half.
    I would have just called that drag collectively tbh.

    I've always been under the drag increases with speed. I've never heard of it being higher at certain speeds only to fall again as it goes faster
    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Loved the 33gr Remington acutips.
    I've often wondered why, if the goal was flatter faster RF rounds, that the WMR standard shape was that flat nose shovel, and the HMR/WSM had that improved ballistics boat tail.
    (maybe WMR had other factors.

    Do the tips make a difference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Often wondered why they didn't make the WMR bullet more pointier as it were.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Often wondered why they didn't make the WMR bullet more pointier as it were.

    Always seemed a bit odd to me alight. Granted, it was made in the 50s, and it was basically a 22lr. with a magnum upgrade. So can understand that they kept it simple.

    But the WSM was 7 years ago. The template was already there with the 17HMR.
    The WSM parent case was .27, so to me the obvious choice was to neck it to 22 and use a 32gr boat tail.

    Instead, they just made a faster 17hmr - which was fine as it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    To me the best choice would be a .20. Hopefully it would be happy medium between both worlds. They already had the tooling to make .17 bullets. So from the commercial side of things that was not going to happen. We have a wonderful choice of rimfire bullets today. We can shoot everything out to 150yds up to fox size. I thought the WSM would be a high success. Seems they have accuracy issues. Love to get my hands on one.

    On rimfire central 200yds on squirrels with the mach 2.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    To me the best choice would be a .20. Hopefully it would be happy medium between both worlds. They already had the tooling to make .17 bullets. So from the commercial side of things that was not going to happen.
    They’d have the tooling for suitable bullets from centrefire calibres. I don’t think that’s an issue, as many of these start life as wildcats.

    But, we’re on the same page. The 32gr I mentioned would actually be the .204 Ruger.
    Hornet is slight heavier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Far superior cartridge the 5mm. Half the drop and twice the energy at 150yds of the wmr. Strange it never caught on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Far superior cartridge the 5mm. Half the drop and twice the energy at 150yds of the wmr. Strange it never caught on.

    It's funny what gets popular and what doesn't. Look at the .260 Remington vs Creed.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,370 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Feisar wrote: »

    Never heard of that calibre. But seems to be pretty much what I describe above, a ruger .204 size/weight bullet in a .26 case.
    (ok, I said WSM case, which is .269, close enough)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Far superior cartridge the 5mm. Half the drop and twice the energy at 150yds of the wmr. Strange it never caught on.

    Probably confused the Americans as to what a 5mm might be. They may have been better off calling it a .20 Remington.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Aguila still make the 5mm Remington.$26 a box. 30gr @2200fps so not too different to the wmr. Interesting article here at Chuckhawks https://www.chuckhawks.com/5mm_rem_mag.htm.

    It would appear it is the 38gr offering that beats the WMR with 165 lbs at 180 yds. http://5mmforums.com/bring-back-the-5mm-rim


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    Mellor wrote: »
    I think the obvious was what I was after. :pac: :pac: :pac:

    I assumed frontal drag is the cross section drag aka frontal area. I was just not sure what rear drag was relating to.
    Seams you are talking about the air flow drag over the shape. ie the drag difference between a sphere and a half-sphere without the rear half.
    I would have just called that drag collectively tbh.

    I've always been under the drag increases with speed. I've never heard of it being higher at certain speeds only to fall again as it goes faster


    I've often wondered why, if the goal was flatter faster RF rounds, that the WMR standard shape was that flat nose shovel, and the HMR/WSM had that improved ballistics boat tail.
    (maybe WMR had other factors.

    Do the tips make a difference?

    Yes, id think it both centers and reduced the size of the connecting frontal drag or sonic cone..

    Any eccentric frontal forces must be reduced by a sharp shape that terminates in a axially aligned point therefore you could assume that the remaining forcess dont have enough spatial separation from the central axis to affect any serious degradation in stabilisation.
    Thus, I say that any accompanying irregularities in the spin stabilization are in effect "not exacerbated" by the nature of their proximity to the central axis for bullets of the right form factor. i.e. pointed

    Bullets with curved noses and driving bands with abrupt transitions into secants will have a lot of surface geometry in play, especially when velocities start to drop..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    How do hollow points fare in such a situation?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    How do hollow points fare in such a situation?

    HP's in a 22 rimfire configuration are just more inefficient and more pron to aerodynamics effects.

    A 22wmr might give you 1.5moa but when do you decide to forgo a shot/a kill based on this achievable accuracy.. I would think that the accuracy is still effective out to 150yards..

    They are very efficient at killing small game. Their effective range should be measured not just in terms of Ft/lb but also in terms of "hit probability" and this metric is always constrained by impact velocity and the subsequent bullet fragmentation or deformation
    Again the 22 wmr with 40 mini-mags at 150 yards will not offer much expansion with jacketed hollow points.
    33 grain Remington v-max will disintegrate..

    If you expand the set under consideration, to include .224 cal center fire which HP tips then you'll note that these HP tips are effectivly closed.
    Target shooters regularly trim these tip to provide consistency. I think its a kin to forming a miniature metaplate. This modification is only for those chasing Gold.. A 22 swift with easily shoot 1/2 moa

    The ill effect of the HP tip has been offset by 'tipped' ammunition, for years.. i.e. 22cal 50 gr Serria BlizKing and others.
    hese are ok but they have been found to melt at high velocity and effect the flight path.. I think that at least one manufacture issuing aluminum ballistic tips as inserts in the HP expansion cavity, thus avoiding the alleged deformation found in plastic versions.

    I'm primarily concerned with hunting and I have learned to accept small variations within specific calibres which for the most part are relative to known chamberings. The firearms themselves also have limitations related to the ammunition used..
    There is too many permutations to which I could justify another rifle..

    How may 22 rifles do you need.. Lol

    1 Scoped air rifle- PCP for efficiency of use
    2 Break barrel iron sights for simplicity of use
    3 Pump action 22LR with tub fed to cycle Short, CB longs,
    4 S/A 22 for quick follow up shots or target rich pickings
    5 22-bolt action with a long barrel to handle Hyper velocity ammo and improve accuracy thus giving extended hit probability.
    6 Lever action for nostalgia and fun
    7 A browning rifle to admire
    8 A takedown 22 for discreet pest control
    9 bolt action with dedicated Nightvision scope


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