Betting Rules, Ante Post etc

famagusta

I just said i'd start a thread about betting rules, ante post etc as there are questions every year on the Cheltenham Ante post threads and it'd be handy for lads that are occasional punters...

Ante Post Betting:
Traditional ante-post betting is when a market forms a good number of days before the race takes place. There are No rule 4 deductions for non runners!!

If you back a horse and it doesn't run, you lose your money.
However, there are a couple of exceptions: if your horse doesn't qualify to run for whatever reason and more importantly, in handicaps, if your horse is balloted out you get your money back, most times if this happens you might need to explain the rules to the bookie as sometimes they don't want to give the money back!!!!

Non runner no bet: NRNB
Non runner no bet is ante post punting but if your horse doesn't run you get your money back, again, no rule 4 deductions. The non runner no bet is great when it comes in for chelt but obviously the bookies shorten everything when it's introduced.

The main advantages of ante post betting is obviously that hopefully you'll get a bigger price than the horse starts on the day. If betting without NRNB you take the chance if it doesn't get there your money is gone.

A very important point is the place terms...
If you back a horse ante post 1/5 odds 1,2,3. if there are only 6 runners on the day of the race for example you are still getting paid top three. This is a great angle if you're backing each way in a race that you're sure will cut up. Some bookies are being more cautious on Saturday races now, on some ante post markets they are only offering 2 places as they know the race will cut up, so be aware of place terms.
Paddys are actually paying 5 places antepost on the fred winter, which is unusual.

Early Prices:
Early prices are when a bookie prices up a race AFTER declaration stage, the likes of Bet365 price it the night before and most others the morning of the race (morning prices)

- If there is a non runner After declaration stage there is a Rule 4 https://www.geegeez.co.uk/geegeez-faq/rule-4-deductions-chart/

- If your horse doesn't run you get your money back

Hope that clarifies things ...

The Tetrarch

From personal experience you get your money back if the horse was listed in the bookmaker's ante post lists, you bet, but the horse was never entered in the race.

redzerdrog

The Tetrarch wrote: »

From personal experience you get your money back if the horse was listed in the bookmaker's ante post lists, you bet, but the horse was never entered in the race.

Is that not only if they are balloted out?

The Tetrarch

My experience was from years back.
Owington was in the Ladbrokes lists in shop for the Derby.
I backed Owington at 50/1, price initialled by shop staff.
During the following week he disappeared from their Derby list.
When I found out he was never entered in the Derby I did a bit of digging and learned if the horse can not win you get a refund.
An example would be a horse that died on the gallops, and you bet on it not knowing this.
Many antepost bets were probably retained by bookmakers over the years in similar circumstances.

The Tetrarch

I should point out back then they was no Derby late entry supplementary stage.
Derby horses had to be entered in the race when they were yearlings.

NaiveMelodies

The Tetrarch wrote: »

From personal experience you get your money back if the horse was listed in the bookmaker's ante post lists, you bet, but the horse was never entered in the race.

This is no longer the case.

The Tetrarch

The rule is "Ante Post bets are accepted all in run or not. Stakes are lost on an Ante Post bet if a selection does not take part.".
Your selection must be in the race. If it then does not take part you lose.
If a horse is not in the race you can not win.
My situation would not apply to present Derby (or other races) with a late supplementary stage.
They could be supplemented.
Perhaps you could get a refund if the horse was not originally entered.

Looking at the 2018 Programme Book for the Champion Hurdle, Cheltenham, Tuesday, March 13th, 2018.
Enter by noon, January 16th and pay 500 stake.
Scratch by noon, February 13th or pay 1,000.
Confirm by noon, March 7th and pay 500.
Supplementary Entry by noon, March 7th and pay 500
Declare by 10.00 a.m. March 11th

In this race the bookmakers could enter any horse in their antepost lists before the Supplementary Entry stage at noon, March 7th.
The reasoning is any horse could be supplemented.

But if these horses were put on a bookmakers antepost list you would be entitled to a refund if you backed them because they could not be supplemented.

• Horses under four yrs old.
• Horses with a rating under 130 on the day of confirmation (noon, March 7th).
• Horses not qualified for a rating in GB, IRE, FR would only be eligible if the handicapper is satisfied they would merit a minimum rating of 130.

The conditions of every race differ, and unless you know the conditions of the race you can not know if you are entitled to a refund.

NaiveMelodies

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The rule is "Ante Post bets are accepted all in run or not. Stakes are lost on an Ante Post bet if a selection does not take part.".
Your selection must be in the race. If it then does not take part you lose.
If a horse is not in the race you can not win.
My situation would not apply to present Derby (or other races) with a late supplementary stage.
They could be supplemented.
Perhaps you could get a refund if the horse was not originally entered.

Looking at the 2018 Programme Book for the Champion Hurdle, Cheltenham, Tuesday, March 13th, 2018.
Enter by noon, January 16th and pay 500 stake.
Scratch by noon, February 13th or pay 1,000.
Confirm by noon, March 7th and pay 500.
Supplementary Entry by noon, March 7th and pay 500
Declare by 10.00 a.m. March 11th

In this race the bookmakers could enter any horse in their antepost lists before the Supplementary Entry stage at noon, March 7th.
The reasoning is any horse could be supplemented.

But if these horses were put on a bookmakers antepost list you would be entitled to a refund if you backed them because they could not be supplemented.

• Horses under four yrs old.
• Horses with a rating under 130 on the day of confirmation (noon, March 7th).
• Horses not qualified for a rating in GB, IRE, FR would only be eligible if the handicapper is satisfied they would merit a minimum rating of 130.

The conditions of every race differ, and unless you know the conditions of the race you can not know if you are entitled to a refund.

I don't know who you bet with but I know 99.9% of bookies have the same ante post rules.

You are wrong to say money back if the horse isn't entered. Plain and simple.

famagusta

NaiveMelodies wrote:

You are wrong to say money back if the horse isn't entered. Plain and simple.

NaiveMelodies wrote:

I don't know who you bet with but I know 99.9% of bookies have the same ante post rules.

It wouldn't be like him to drag a thread off topic some example of a bet he placed in the 1950s

NaiveMelodies

famagusta wrote: »

It wouldn't be like him to drag a thread off topic some example of a bet he placed in the 1950s

Gotta love the long winded 'explanation' trying to deflect from the fact he is wrong :pac::pac:

Pity, as he has derailed a potentially very useful thread!

The Tetrarch

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

Gotta love the long winded 'explanation' trying to deflect from the fact he is wrong :pac::pac:
Pity, as he has derailed a potentially very useful thread!

My example from 1994, 500 pounds on Owington for the Derby, was from a time when I bet antepost.
I avoid antepost now, and restrict myself to bets in the last few days (technically still ante-post) before a race (if the owner conforms the horse is a runner).

You could read Tattersalls Committee Rules on Betting to clear up points and quote from those, because if there is a difference of opinion those rules apply.
In the rules G3. ‘Ante-post bet’ means a bet on an event in advance of the day of the race.
Rule 4. Other than ‘first past the post’ bets, all bets will be settled according to the result as announced at the ‘Weighed-In’ with the following exceptions:
(A) Single ante-post bets, being made before 10 a.m. on the day of the final declarations will be void under the following circumstances: -
i) If the race is abandoned;
ii) If the race is declared void;
iii) If the Conditions of the race entry are changed prior to the start of the race;
iv) If the venue is altered; or
v) If a horse is eliminated under the British Horseracing Authority (BHA) Rules of Racing, schedule 8 of the Race Administration Manual (F).
It appears all above posters are familiar with the ten sections of the BHA Race Administration Manual, and the seventeen schedules.

I am impressed that in a thread Betting Rules, Ante Post etc nobody has mentioned the rules, or where you can find them, but can retain all the rules in memory.

famagusta

The whole point of the thread was to provide simple guidance for people, I would appreciate it if you would not drag the thread off topic with your ramblings, thanks

The Tetrarch

famagusta wrote: »

If you back a horse and it doesn't run, you lose your money.

I pointed out that that may not be correct.

Peintre Celebre

Sure you often see in an ante post list now (needs to be supplemented) after their name. Back that and if it doesn't run you will lose.

Different if the horse is inelligible to run in the race.

Horse in an ante post list that isn't entered in the race- tough luck

Horse in an ante post list that isn't eligible to run or be entered- money back (assuming it's known)