Labour Court Decisions...are they a waste of time?

Chevy RV

Hello All,

Please see attached Stage 5 of Labour court proceedings:

LABOUR COURT USER’S GUIDE 9

Stage Five: Court issues its
Recommendation/Determination/
Decision

If you are dismissed after 10 months in a job, are these a waste of time because,even if you get an award, they are unenforceable against the employer....

Your thoughts please ....

Regards,

Chevy RV

Claw Hammer

Chevy RV wrote: »

Hello All,

Please see attached Stage 5 of Labour court proceedings:

LABOUR COURT USER’S GUIDE 9

Stage Five: Court issues its
Recommendation/Determination/
Decision

If you are dismissed after 10 months in a job, are these a waste of time because,even if you get an award, they are unenforceable against the employer....

Your thoughts please ....

Regards,

Chevy RV

How would an award after 10 months be any less enforceable than an award after 2 years?

Chevy RV

Stage Five: Court issues its
Recommendation/Determination/
Decision

My understanding is that if the labour court issues a recommendation that say you should get €10,000 - the employer can give you the two fingers as these type recommendations are merely that, and thus unenforceable against the employer!!!

I am open to correction on this point

Claw Hammer

Chevy RV wrote: »

Stage Five: Court issues its
Recommendation/Determination/
Decision

My understanding is that if the labour court issues a recommendation that say you should get €10,000 - the employer can give you the two fingers as these type recommendations are merely that, and thus unenforceable against the employer!!!

I am open to correction on this point

That is not what I asked? What difference does it make if you are 10 months employed or 2 years?

Chevy RV

Sorry , I misunderstood what you said.

If you are working less than 12 months, the Unfair Dismissals law doesn't apply to you. However, an employee can be awarded compensation if say the employer didn't follow due process in dismissing an employee even after a couple of months. It is this type of award that I am referring to.

Peregrinus

Chevy RV wrote: »

Stage Five: Court issues its
Recommendation/Determination/
Decision

My understanding is that if the labour court issues a recommendation that say you should get €10,000 - the employer can give you the two fingers as these type recommendations are merely that, and thus unenforceable against the employer!!!

I am open to correction on this point

Why is that your understanding? Does it say that in the Labour Court User Guide, or are you reading it somewhere else?

Chevy RV

Say if the labour court makes a "recommendation" of €10,000 for the employee, the employer can then give the two fingers as the decision or recommendation is non-binding on the employer

is_that_so

Chevy RV wrote: »

Say if the labour court makes a "recommendation" of €10,000 for the employee, the employer can then give the two fingers as the decision or recommendation is non-binding on the employer

https://www.labourcourt.ie/en/about-us/who-we-are/

The Court's determinations under the Employment Rights enactments are legally binding.

Chevy RV

Recommendations made by the Court concerning the investigation of disputes under the Industrial Relations Acts 1946 – 2015 are not binding on the parties concerned. However, the parties are expected to give serious consideration to the Court's Recommendation. Ultimately, however, responsibility for the settlement of a dispute rests with the parties.

is_that_so

Chevy RV wrote: »

Recommendations made by the Court concerning the investigation of disputes under the Industrial Relations Acts 1946 – 2015 are not binding on the parties concerned. However, the parties are expected to give serious consideration to the Court's Recommendation. Ultimately, however, responsibility for the settlement of a dispute rests with the parties.

You are confusing two things here, disputes and breaking the law.

Chevy RV

If an employee is dismissed inside 12 months, only the 1969 Act applies and the recommendations are non-binding even if an award is made - that is my query really.

Peregrinus

First of all, to be clear, we are only talking here about cases where somebody has been dismissed within 12 months of being hired, right? You're not asking us if Labour Court decisions are generally useless; just if they are useless in these particular circumstances.

The answer is twofold:

First, while you enjoy limited protection against unfair dismissal in the first 12 months, you do enjoy some protection. You can bring an unfair dismissal claim if you are dismissed for trade union membership/activity; for pregnancy, childbirth or related matters; for availing of your rights under the legislation granting maternity/paternity/adoptive/carer's leave; or for making a protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosures legislation (whistleblowing). Any finding in your favour in these circumstances will be enforceable.

Secondly, if you don't come within these circumstances, you can still bring a claim arguing that your employer has not followed fair procedures. Any recommendation in your favour will not be legally binding. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's useless, however, particularly if you have the backing of a trade union in your dispute with your employer, or if your employer has a reputation to protect (e.g. as a good employer to work for). Some people do proceed to obtain non-binding recommendations; presumably they do that because the recommendations do have some utility for them.

weshtawake

"Enforcing a Labour Court decision
An employer has 42 days to implement the Labour Court’s decision. If the employer fails to do so, the employee, the Workplace Relations Commission, the employee’s trade union or excepted body can apply to the District Court for an order directing the employer to do so. (An excepted body is a body that represents the interests of a particular group of workers.) The District Court must grant the order."

The above quote is taken from Citizen's Information booklet on Labour Disputes. How does this square with the contention that a Labour Court decision is not enforcable if given under Industrial Relations Act as opposed to Unfair Dismissals and employee has less than 12 months service.
Very confused!!

Chevy RV

weshtawake wrote: »

"Enforcing a Labour Court decision
An employer has 42 days to implement the Labour Court’s decision. If the employer fails to do so, the employee, the Workplace Relations Commission, the employee’s trade union or excepted body can apply to the District Court for an order directing the employer to do so. (An excepted body is a body that represents the interests of a particular group of workers.) The District Court must grant the order."

The above quote is taken from Citizen's Information booklet on Labour Disputes. How does this square with the contention that a Labour Court decision is not enforcable if given under Industrial Relations Act as opposed to Unfair Dismissals and employee has less than 12 months service.
Very confused!!

But what happens if there is no trade union present in a small employer to enforce it?

Lenar3556

Chevy RV wrote: »

But what happens if there is no trade union present in a small employer to enforce it?

You bring proceedings in the district court, (or instruct a solicitor to do so on your behalf)

Chevy RV

......

Secondly, if you don't come within these circumstances, you can still bring a claim arguing that your employer has not followed fair procedures. Any recommendation in your favour will not be legally binding. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's useless, however, particularly if you have the backing of a trade union in your dispute with your employer, or if your employer has a reputation to protect (e.g. as a good employer to work for). Some people do proceed to obtain non-binding recommendations; presumably they do that because the recommendations do have some utility for them.[/QUOTE]


This situation is unenforceable though, no?

chunkylover4

Chevy RV wrote: »

......

Secondly, if you don't come within these circumstances, you can still bring a claim arguing that your employer has not followed fair procedures. Any recommendation in your favour will not be legally binding. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's useless, however, particularly if you have the backing of a trade union in your dispute with your employer, or if your employer has a reputation to protect (e.g. as a good employer to work for). Some people do proceed to obtain non-binding recommendations; presumably they do that because the recommendations do have some utility for them.

This situation is unenforceable though, no?[/QUOTE]

The determinations are unenforceable but they are helpful if you wish to proceed to bring a claim such as breach of contract. A decent solicitor will use a determination to negotiate.

Chevy RV

Lenar3556 wrote: »

You bring proceedings in the district court, (or instruct a solicitor to do so on your behalf)

Can it be enforced by your solicitor taking breach of contract action to court? Is that not a completely separate action altogether which comes back to my original point that an unenforceable labour court judgement is a bit of a waste of time really?

chunkylover4

Chevy RV wrote: »

Can it be enforced by your solicitor taking breach of contract action to court? Is that not a completely separate action altogether which comes back to my original point that an unenforceable labour court judgement is a bit of a waste of time really?

I have been able to use them as leverage in the past to settle claims that issued but it is entirely fact dependent.

weshtawake

The bottom line is if you have less than 12 months service the action is taken under the Industrial Relations Acts (not Unfair Dismissals) and any award/determination is not enforceable against the employer. Absolutely valueless to an individual dismissed for no reason and who goes through the process only to wind up with a useless determination from the Labour Court.

If you are dismissed after 12 months service and take action under Unfair Dismissals you have the full weight of the law on your side and an enforceable determination on the employer.
In such circumstances is this not discriminatory on the poor sod with less than 12 months service. If you are treated badly by your employer and summarily dismissed what should it matter whether you are working 1 week, 1 month or 1 year to get enforceable compensation from your employer??? Baffling!!

Chevy RV

Hello All,

So if an employee is dismissed for a reason other than those listed inside 12 months of starting the job, the only thing that the labour court (WRC) can do is issue a RECOMMENDATION which is UNENFORCEABLE ( as opposed to a Determination which is ENFORCEABLE).

That comes back to my original point about Labour court recommendations being a bit of a waste of time?


Regards,


Chevy RV

weshtawake

You are 100% correct they are a waste of time & effort. What's more they grant a licence to an employer to "slash and burn" with abandon employees who have been employed less than 12 months. Absolutely useless process/procedure!