Conversion Supplies

pullandbang

Looking to convert a small van into a "day van".
Putting in a leisure battery, couple of 12v and USB sockets and some LED lighting.
Also going to insulate and carpet it.
Where is a good place to buy all the bits?
Lots of places in the UK but don't want to go there, would prefer to shop here in Ireland or mainland Europe if needs be.

The honest answer is there isn't one. I'm a fitter and the one-stop shops are peddling over-rated under-performing jank.
Through the years of experience, I've had sucking it and seeing, melting hardware way below rated, testing battery chargers that can't charge batteries properly, inverters that are gnarly and can't meet specification and switchgear that's laughably inappropriate for it's badge.



Same rating.

I've come to the conclusion that anything specified for leisure or camper use is inappropriate for leisure and camper use. No such thing as a leisure battery. If it's not a traction battery it's an engine starting battery sporting an expensive sticker.



200A fuse failed at 160A continuous

Not only is it underperforming it's also extortionate. €600 60L fridges, €200 150W solar panels, €600 does feck all (Sterling-esque) boxes etc etc.

I've blown €3k MasterVolt inverters twice with less than 20 hours on them. Ie. I blew the shyte outtov it, then they warrantied it and issued me a new one months later, that lasted a coupla weeks. I replaced it with a Studer and that's ludicrously superior for a lower cost.


I've taken cable suppliers to task on shaving the cables.

I can spend days sourcing used industrial hardware that's far superior to camping trinkets.



I pride myself on delivering 100% duty capable systems. I cannot do it with goods from a conversion suppliers.

Alkers

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The honest answer is there isn't one. .

+1 on the above, it's too small a market here for there to be a dedicated supplier and any that are around work out very expensive

Most sellers don't know any better. It's like asking your motor factors to diagnose your engine fault.

It's a product of compounded fibbing marketing. For instance, they claim 35mm² cable is 240A capable...they even print it on the jacket.

According to electrical regs and the IEE, 35mm² is generally 150A continuously rated cable.
According to welding data, 35mm² is 240A capable at a 10% duty cycle.
If you calculate the CSA of Thin Wall Automotive 35mm² you'll find it's 30.1mm².
If you measure it you'll find it's 25mm².

When I buy cable I have to add 20% overhead and go one gauge higher to offset the bullsh1t.


Two things that seem infallible to Joe Average Bloke that actually mean absolutely nothing:

"That's what yer man in the shop said." {Biased, uninformed advocate}
"That's how we've always done it." {Traditionalism with no scientific merit and demonstrating the installer's inability to think about the problem or make a measurable improvement).


That system in the picture above runs at 250A charge at full load. :cool:

colm_mcm

A few USB sockets and LED lights and maybe a water pump aren’t going to need anything special.
Bit of perspective needed.

Not to take away from how impressive your systems are.

Sure Colm.

I've nothing against cheap and cheerful when it's cheap and cheerful.
I still wouldn't buy them from any bricks and mortar suppliers because I don't wanna pay the markup.

You could pay €5 for this from China



Or €15 from Amazon or a trad retailer.
Not 2.1A though closer 1.2A.

These are 2.1A...and lo it's not for a motorhome...



I can get much better lights from China too at a fraction of the cost

WAPAIC

Great stuff. Would you like to share a few links so the rest of us can benefit from your research? I understand if you're working in this area and don't want to release the info.

WAPAIC

WAPAIC wrote: »

I understand if you're working in this area and don't want to release the info.

:pac: It's not like that. I open-source, the industry bar is abysmally low. I'm not afraid of doing myself outtov a job. Most people think I'm too expensive anyway, I refute that on the grounds of my sh1t works 100% duty capable, meets specification, has redundancy through modularity, reliability and back-up supporting hardware, is fit for purpose and has a serviceable lifetime designed to outlive the supporting vehicle. Nobody else I know can claim that.


However, I'm not doing yer homework for free.


Here's some good brands:

• MorningStar {Solar Charge Contollers}
• Studer {Inverters (low frequency)}
• (Yellow) Xantrex {Inverter High frequency}
• Albright {DC Contactors - Split Charge etc...}
• Cooper Busman {Fuses Switchgear, OEM for Blue Sea Systems}
• ABB {Mains & DC Switchgear}
• Schneider {Mains Switchgear}
• Kraus and Naimer {Mains ChangeOver Cam Switches, PV Isolators}
• Merlin {Smartbank Split Charge}
• Bogart Engineering {Battery Monitor}
• Eltek {Industrial Power Suplies}
• Meanwell {Commercial Grade Power Supplies}
• Elandflex Cable {Genuine Cable}
• ProMariner {Chargers, DC-DC}
• Ctek Marine {Chargers}
• Trace {Inverters - obsolete}
• Merlin Gerrin {Mains Switchgear}
• Crydom {Solid State Relays}
• Crown battery {Golf Cart Traction Battery}
• Trojan Battery {Golf Cart Traction Battery}
• FireFly Oasis AGM {Lowest cost of ownership battery in production}
• Yuasa {High End AGM}
• Green & Co. LED {Top Shelf affordable 12v LED)

My Sh1t List (Tested and Proven to my satisfaction)

• Victron {DC Switchgear & hardware; Always undermined by marketing and production costs}
• MasterVolt {DC Switchgear & hardware; Apple-esque marketing, expensive, weak, proprietary and there's an accessory you can get for that which costs €xxx"}
• Ctek Automotive {Chargers; Expensive, undercharges}
• Durite {DC Switchgear and hardware; Over-rated, underbuilt, cheap materials low build quality}
• Cargo {DC Switchgear; Over-rated, underbuilt, cheap materials low build quality}
• MidNite {Solar hardware and Charge Controllers; Over-rated, noisy, underperforming, low build quality}
• Bep Marine {Marine electrical, Expensive rebadged junk that doesn't work}
• Samlex {Inverters; knock off, over-priced jank, price does not reflect quality}
• CBB {The least you could do, style with no substance}
• Calira {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• Schaudt {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• ArSilcii {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• Reich {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• NordeElectronica {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• Sargent {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• TopTron {Expensive, under-performing, nigh negligently harmful to ancillary systems}
• Absorption Fridges {Waste of power, highly inefficient gas hog, unreliable, unregulated, requires huge holes in the vehicle for ventilation}
• Peltier Fridges {Waste of power, doesn't work, not fit for purpose}

Works but not worth the asking price (because I have ways to get similar results far cheaper)

• Sterling Power {DC Hardware and Switchgear: Waaay over-priced for the hardware build standard & performance}
• Redarc {DC Hardware and Switchgear: Over-priced for the hardware & performance}
• "Hi Flex" Cable {Doesn't meet specification...any of them}
• Outback {Solar Charge Controllers, DC Switchgear and Inverters; Low End for pricepoint}
• Blue Sea Systems {Great hardware, 4X the price}
• Xantrex (Other colours) {DC hardware, undermined by marketing, cost exceeds value}
• any 12/24v Danfoss compressor fridge {works grand but 6 times more expensive than that hardware in a mains flavour}
• Siemens {Mains Switchgear; astronomical pricing}
• All Li-Ion Lead substitutes; from raw cells, to used EV, to drop-in replacements {Expensive, compatibility issues, extensive retrofitting, low capacity for the money, gets damaged by low-temperature charging, LFP has a memory effect}

Cheap, Cheerful, good value for money

• EP Solar {Does rated, not more}
• Omron {Switchgear: Meets spec. does not exceed}

Global Ebay Search Clicky



Global Amazon Search Clicky


If I've overlooked any I can recommend stuff I've tried and tested myself or don't know/can't vouch for thumbs up/down/indifferent basis.

WAPAIC

Thats very helpful for people trying to figure this out from scratch, thanks!

colm_mcm

Camping kaufhaus in Germany has a big selection of stuff. We got a few bits there.

For the carpet liner, there’s a company called Vandalized in the uk that’s very reasonable - Cosy Campers in Dublin do it too but I think it’s still cheaper to get in the uk.

pullandbang

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

However, I'm not doing yer homework for free.

If I've overlooked any I can recommend stuff I've tried and tested myself or don't know/can't vouch for thumbs up/down/indifferent basis.

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply.
However, for a complete newbie it doesn't really get me anywhere.
It seems I should go buy all the bits separately but the problem there is, I've no idea what to buy!
For example, what wire should I buy to connect the starter battery to the leisure battery? What connecters? What fuses? What fuse boxes?
Where can I buy your recommended cable in short lengths?
Then what cable to buy to run from the fuse box to the lights/USB etc?
Where do I get short lengths?

I gather you don't think much of the split relay kits from the likes of Cosy Campers or Ebay or Amazon but they make a lot more sense for someone like me.
However, it seems they may not work on my van as it's a Euro 6 engine with a smart alternator - this I only found out now.
So apparently I have to use a DC-Charger instead.

A quick look at cheap LED lights from China tell me I have to wait until the middle of May for delivery :eek:
That's not a runner either.

The upside is, the more I research, the more I'm finding out

pullandbang

pullandbang wrote: »

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply.
However, for a complete newbie it doesn't really get me anywhere.
It seems I should go buy all the bits separately but the problem there is, I've no idea what to buy!
For example, what wire should I buy to connect the starter battery to the leisure battery? What connecters? What fuses? What fuse boxes?
Where can I buy your recommended cable in short lengths?
Then what cable to buy to run from the fuse box to the lights/USB etc?
Where do I get short lengths?

Depends on what your expected load +20% is and how much acceptable voltage drop you design to.

pullandbang wrote: »

I gather you don't think much of the split relay kits from the likes of Cosy Campers or Ebay or Amazon but they make a lot more sense for someone like me.

They don't often meet specification, have questionable fixed thresholds and bottleneck the system.
The only sense they make is cheap and convenient. Electrically they're not very good.

pullandbang wrote: »

So apparently I have to use a DC-Charger instead.

Second alternator. Double the power, same cost, more reliable.

pullandbang wrote: »

A quick look at cheap LED lights from China tell me I have to wait until the middle of May for delivery :eek:
That's not a runner either.

You can always pay more for less locally. 6 weeks to tackle lighting is ambitious judging by the questions you're asking.

pullandbang

So I eventually completed my "camper" conversion.

Obviously this is not a proper camper and there will never be any fixtures permanently fitted.

There's a 140amp Deep Cycle battery under the passenger seat which powers the three 12v sockets, USB sockets and two LED lights.

All we need now is the travel restrictions to be lifted, some good weather and I'll be off fishing

colm_mcm

Very neat, what sort of length is in the back?

pullandbang

colm_mcm wrote: »

Very neat, what sort of length is in the back?

It's just under 2m long. My "bed" which is a flat board and will be sitting on 3 or 4 of those grey plastic boxes, is 1.93m long.

lennymc

That's nice and neat. Im considering something similar myself for my daily driver van - to carry bikes around and have the capability of making a cuppa after a spin! Where did you end up getting the carpet and various bits n bobs in the end?

pullandbang

lennymc wrote: »

Where did you end up getting the carpet and various bits n bobs in the end?

The carpet and adhesive came from Cosy Campers.
Van was ply lined by Plyline Plus in Clondalkin though I'm half sorry I didn't do that bit myself as I would have done a better job.
Most of the electrics (Wiring, LED lights, USB & 12v sockets) came from Amazon Germany but I got a few smaller bits from my local motor factors.
The insulation came from B&Q - it's the white fluffy stuff made from recycled plastic bottles.
The charger is a Votronic B2B unit, again from Amazon.de
I got the vapour barrier foil from a mate in the packaging business.

Alkers

pullandbang wrote: »

The carpet and adhesive came from Cosy Campers.
Van was ply lined by Plyline Plus in Clondalkin though I'm half sorry I didn't do that bit myself as I would have done a better job.
Most of the electrics (Wiring, LED lights, USB & 12v sockets) came from Amazon Germany but I got a few smaller bits from my local motor factors.
The insulation came from B&Q - it's the white fluffy stuff made from recycled plastic bottles.
The charger is a Votronic B2B unit, again from Amazon.de
I got the vapour barrier foil from a mate in the packaging business.

What was wrong with the plyline job? I assume they have everything working off templates specific to each van or can they make up whatever you fancy?

pullandbang

Alkers wrote: »

What was wrong with the plyline job? I assume they have everything working off templates specific to each van or can they make up whatever you fancy?

Most people that do plylining seem to use templates and CNC machines.
These guys used tape measures and jig saws
It wasn't a bad job but having done the roof panels myself, I reckon I could have done the rest myself and made a better job of it.
Then again they were cheap and cheerful.

lennymc

Thanks for that pullandbang.

Panda Moanium

That's a tidy job indeed. Hoping to do something very similar myself but lacking very much in the skills department so all a bit daunting to be honest.

A couple of questions - did you install the electrical stuff yourself? Where did you locate the leisure battery and B2B Charger? Is there complicated wiring involved that would be beyond the capability of a novice?

Also did you do the carpet lining yourself? The insulating side I'd be fairly comfortable tacking but I've watched a few YouTube videos and fitting carpet lining so it doesn't come across as a complete amateur job looks challenging enough.

pullandbang

Panda Moanium wrote: »

A couple of questions - did you install the electrical stuff yourself? Where did you locate the leisure battery and B2B Charger? Is there complicated wiring involved that would be beyond the capability of a novice?

Yes, I did everything myself and it's relatively easy to do once you have a bit of confidence. I'm no electrician but I do understand a little bit and like you, have gorged on YouTube videos:D
The leisure battery fits under my passenger seat with about 2mm height to spare. That's one area where I measured, then measured again and finally measured multiple more times before committing. I actually ended up cutting the rubber floor mat underneath the battery to give me an extra couple of millimetres it was that tight.
The B2B cherger and fuse box are also fitted behind the passenger seat and are bolted into the bulk head. The biggest issue there was getting the charger into a spot where I could run the 25mm2 cable back to the leisure battery and not have those two really stiff cables under any tension.

Panda Moanium wrote: »

Also did you do the carpet lining yourself? The insulating side I'd be fairly comfortable tacking but I've watched a few YouTube videos and fitting carpet lining so it doesn't come across as a complete amateur job looks challenging enough.

Yes, I did the carpeting myself and it was my first time. Have to say the four way stretch carpet is very forgiving and hides a multitude of sins
As I had the van ply lined, I was able to remove the ply panels and wheel arch covers and carpet them individually which made it very easy. Then it was just a matter of carpeting the van walls that would be exposed. That was fiddly especially trying to keep the spray adhesive under control, but plenty of masking tape did the trick.

Panda Moanium

Thank you, you're inspiring me to give it a go. First step is to get the measuring tape out - I had assumed that while I might get the leisure battery under the passenger seat, there wouldn't be room for it and the B2B charger and fuse box. Different van to yours though (mine is a Ford Transit Connect) and at first glance the space under the seat doesn't look particularly roomy.

air

pullandbang wrote: »

So I eventually completed my "camper" conversion.

Obviously this is not a proper camper and there will never be any fixtures permanently fitted.

There's a 140amp Deep Cycle battery under the passenger seat which powers the three 12v sockets, USB sockets and two LED lights.

All we need now is the travel restrictions to be lifted, some good weather and I'll be off fishing

Nice job.
If you want to take things a bit further for your bed, this is a good design for a bed frame that doesn't take up much room when not in use.
I don't think the guy is making them any longer but the design would be easy enough to replicate.

https://youtu.be/k606pSqUPBI
^Added the link as I'm not sure the inline video is working

See this 100A rated fuse?







Look what happens whe you put it on a 300VA inverter that runs a peak nominal 100W, ~8A...less than 10% rated.





That's prewired on 10mm² cable...50A rated




For 100A you need a bolt-down Class T with a 25mm² cable feeder.
I think they rely on it being so bad it can act as a current limit.


Does anyone else think that making sub-standard fuse-holders is irresponsible? Think about it, if the fuse holder melts the fuse won't save you.

Bruthal.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Does anyone else think that making sub-standard fuse-holders is irresponsible? Think about it, if the fuse holder melts the fuse won't save you.

Seems insane putting 100A fuse onto push on spade connectors alright, nevermind the 10sq.

Nice to have a real sparks contribution to the situation...people think I just give out for no reason. Motorhome electrical standards are regulated by user lack of imagination and manufacter's preference for current limiting materials.

Those are shyte terminals alright..even at 10A. Friction fit, no positive retention.



(^deformed and melted nylon...not heat shrink)

When I have to use them because they're ubiquitous I squeeze them before install. They still get looser every time you use them and over time with corrosion.

At least Blues Sea systems use screw clamps on Maxi-blades.





We're all being told to buy fast charging Li-Ion now and buy €500 boxes to current limit the alternator below 30A so it doesn't melt and they don't ignite in low temperature operation at high C rates.

They're allegedly more efficient and they have self heating matts, and tell the chargers to turn off (load supporting) when they get full..:rolleyes:

twiddleypop

Curious on the tax and insurance?

Do you have it classed as commercial or campervan? I'm loving the idea of converting a small van but just can't find much on the legalities.

air

Every commercial insurance policy I've ever seen covers domestic and personal use.
Easily removable components in the load area would not represent a modification as far as I'm aware, no different to shelving that is in every builders van.
So once you don't put passengers in the rear it's difficult to foresee any insurance issues. Now one possible exception is that if it's written off you won't get any additional payout for anything in the rear.

With regard to tax those Doblos typically have a 1.3L engine so you could tax it privately on the cc system for very marginally more than the commercial rate and you've no issues there either then.

pullandbang

pullandbang wrote: »

So I eventually completed my "camper" conversion.

Obviously this is not a proper camper and there will never be any fixtures permanently fitted.

There's a 140amp Deep Cycle battery under the passenger seat which powers the three 12v sockets, USB sockets and two LED lights.

All we need now is the travel restrictions to be lifted, some good weather and I'll be off fishing

I like it as a small away day camper - but can I ask on what basis you get it insured. What business is it declared as and is it actually really your business ?
It has been my personal experience that there are no insurance companies which allow a commercial to be used as a private, and in order to run it as a commercial you need to have a legitimate business or be a farmer with a farm number. I dislike operating in grey areas that this situation forces you into.

Shoog

pullandbang

Shoog wrote: »

and in order to run it as a commercial you need to have a legitimate business or be a farmer with a farm number.

Shoog

I have a legitimate business.

pullandbang

pullandbang wrote: »

I have a legitimate business.

That makes sense then.
Would hate to see people without a legitimate business going down this route and finding themselves uninsured.


Shoog