Forgotten Farmers Cohort

JohnChadwick

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/last-chance-saloon-for-forgotten-young-farmers-599697

Is anyone else in this group of 3900 forgotten (or 'old young') farmers?

What would be the way to go about lobbying on this - given the IFA etc. are only familiar with helping out pensioner farmers...

_Brian

Story behind paywall so you’ll need to give some more details

JohnChadwick

_Brian wrote: »

Story behind paywall so you’ll need to give some more details

In 2019, then Fianna Fáil spokesperson for agriculture Charlie McConalogue committed to putting a solution in place for the 3,900 “forgotten” young farmers who missed out on top-ups and grants in the last CAP because they had been farming in their own right before 2015.
“The boat sailed on them in the last CAP and the next CAP needs to redress that,” McConalogue said. Fast forward a year and there is growing anger among the cohort that the now Minister for Agriculture Charlie McConalogue seems to have neatly forgotten about these same young farmers. But it is just the latest in a long line of broken promises that the group has witnessed. It’s a topic the Department of Agriculture has had difficulty explaining to its European counterparts because Ireland is the only country with a “forgotten” young farmer cohort. At a time when most European countries are determined to support their young farmers, the Irish Department of Agriculture managed to let them slip through the gaps between CAP cycles. There is also the added dilemma of having two funding issues, which the Department has always known about and shied away from. The first is that it knows €6.7m per year is needed to bring 3,500 of the “forgotten” young farmers up to the national entitlement average of €264/ha. The second issue is that, based on current average young farmer payments, €8.9m per year is needed to provide the 25% top-up on their entitlements to “forgotten” farmers.
There were also rules in place which prevented these “forgotten” farmers from receiving payments at the beginning of the last CAP because they established their own farm enterprise before 2015. But, in 2018, a change to EU Omnibus regulations came into effect which meant young farmer payments could be provided to farmers under 40 for five years from the date of their application rather than from the date they had their name down on the farm. Minister McConalogue is well aware of this change, since he was the one who asked the pertinent parliamentary question in 2017. At the time, Minister for Agriculture Michael Creed said the Omnibus regulations would bring about “…a facility to provide Young Farmers Scheme payments to applicants for five years from the date of application, regardless of their establishment date”. This could have solved the “forgotten” young farmer issue – but it was never taken up. In a Joint Committee on Agriculture on 2 July 2019, Fran Morrin from the Department of Agriculture’s CAP entitlements division said that another Omnibus regulation came in in 2018 which made it possible to fund the inclusion of a specific disadvantaged group, such as the “forgotten” farmers, from the National Reserve, but only if a linear cut was required to fund priority categories such as young farmers or new entrant farmers. “To date, we have not needed to do a linear cut so the possibility to pay the “forgotten” farmer cohort has not been there,” he said. Basically what that meant was that if there was surplus money after taking care of young farmers and new entrants, then that could go to “forgotten” young farmers. However, Morrin added that, “to date, to be honest, the money has not been there”. Yet a linear cut was used to establish a €5m National Reserve fund in 2017 and Kenneth O’Brien, who was representing “forgotten” young farmers, said then Minister for Agriculture Michael Creed should have pushed for a linear cut in 2018 to create a fund for them. Despite previous promises from the IFA, ICMSA, ICSA and Macra na Feirme of support, the organisations are now quiet on the topic and appear to be thinking about the majority of their farmer members rather than one small cohort, with farm organisation sources saying the Department of Agriculture has told them there is little to no chance of redress in the next CAP. Yet the group, many of whom are still well below their 40th birthdays, is pushing for one last showdown, exhibiting the resolve and drive most European countries would hope to nurture and reward in their next generation of farmers – not ignore them.

_Brian

Probably enough of a group to form your own lobby group. Maybe get someone like Ming on board.

Among 3900 people surely someone is close to or knows a sitting minister.

Donit for yourselves rather than expecting someone else to do it for you .

JohnChadwick

_Brian wrote: »

Probably enough of a group to form your own lobby group. Maybe get someone like Ming on board.

Among 3900 people surely someone is close to or knows a sitting minister.

Donit for yourselves rather than expecting someone else to do it for you .

How does one form a lobby group?

_Brian

Harder now with covid.

Try call a virtual meeting to scope interest.

That’s the litmus test, if you don’t get enough response from lads to do something for themselves then it’s a cheek expecting others to do it for them.

Parish pump politics is alive and well in Ireland, if you want something to happen you need to get councillors, TD and minister on side.

Hard Knocks

_Brian wrote: »

Probably enough of a group to form your own lobby group. Maybe get someone like Ming on board.

Among 3900 people surely someone is close to or knows a sitting minister.

Donit for yourselves rather than expecting someone else to do it for you .

I was one of the old young farmers
Problem is I like many will be an old farmer for the new CAP
We’ll just be the bad timing farmers

blue5000

JohnChadwick wrote: »

How does one form a lobby group?

Whatsap group worked well for beefplan. There's two of you already on this page, PM each other and take it from there. If you know anyone else, add them. Won't be long before it snowballs.

_Brian

blue5000 wrote: »

Whatsap group worked well for beefplan. There's two of you already on this page, PM each other and take it from there. If you know anyone else, add them. Won't be long before it snowballs.

Perfect.
Like I said, you will know quick enough if you have enough lads interested.

JohnChadwick

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I was one of the old young farmers
Problem is I like many will be an old farmer for the new CAP
We’ll just be the bad timing farmers

A lot will be over 40, a lot will still be under 40 too.

memorystick

_Brian wrote: »

Probably enough of a group to form your own lobby group. Maybe get someone like Ming on board.

Among 3900 people surely someone is close to or knows a sitting minister.

Donit for yourselves rather than expecting someone else to do it for you .

It’s interesting that you nominated Ming instead of one of the established parties. Just shows how useless, disconnected and non-interested in the common man they actually are.

_Brian

memorystick wrote: »

It’s interesting that you nominated Ming instead of one of the established parties. Just shows how useless, disconnected and non-interested in the common man they actually are.

I mentioned him Because as much as anything he’s a mouthpiece that seems to take on any auld cause.

JohnChadwick

_Brian wrote: »

I mentioned him Because as much as anything he’s a mouthpiece that seems to take on any auld cause.

Pippa Hackett from the Greens seems really tuned in, and possibly would engage more with this sort of thing?

Looking at the rural independent TD's and they are totally pensioner focused - well they have to be really given the demographics.

As for the Fianna Fail lads - you can give up.

Politics eh.

Dozer1

I'd have been one of these, its a dead duck numbers are small, Macra I think tried to organise something a few years back, installation aid the whole lot gone and no point looking back on it is my view, drive on with what you have

alps

memorystick wrote: »

It’s interesting that you nominated Ming instead of one of the established parties. Just shows how useless, disconnected and non-interested in the common man they actually are.

Contact an MEP who voted for CAP anyway...

Pointless lobbying ones who voted to get rid of CAP...

bogman_bass

The majority of those wouldn’t be “true” forgotten farmers in my eyes.

Those that had the paperwork in but not processed are the ones that really got screwed

amacca

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I was one of the old young farmers
Problem is I like many will be an old farmer for the new CAP
We’ll just be the bad timing farmers

Same boat here......missed out on everything. Even got a question submitted to the dail on how I couldnt apply as I had paid a full rental amount to my parents for the land (as they had retired)

If I had paid them nothing or a nominal fee (1euro) I could have been in the system before the last CAP...............double whammy, act decent an pay proper rent + lose out on payments. Made me very dubious of the system.


Defintely a bad timing farmer.

Say my name

I think I might qualify too.

Started in my own right in 2010.
Missed out on installation aid.
Missed out on these young farmer top ups.
Missed out on the free milk quota that went to new entrants as I inherited the fathers quota that was way below the free quota amount. The father would have been better selling the quota and I applying as a new entrant. If only someone in the know could have told us that! IFA when contacted were useless on the matter.

I'm still under 40. May get myself a violin.

Add me to the list if ye want. I won't hold my breath on anything though.

JohnChadwick

Any thoughts on starting a WhatsApp group and be tipping away at the issue over the next few months - lots of apathy on this but lots of motivation too.

Anyone have a number for Ming then...?

Hard Knocks

_Brian wrote: »

I mentioned him Because as much as anything he’s a mouthpiece that seems to take on any auld cause.

I’ve good time for Ming & MFitz
Stories I’ve heard how they’re helping farmers
We need a few more hard workers in elected seats

_Brian

alps wrote: »

Contact an MEP who voted for CAP anyway...

Pointless lobbying ones who voted to get rid of CAP...

Did they not vote to return cap so it would be reformatted into something more palatable ?

I don’t think anyone voted to 100% scrap it.

_Brian

Hard Knocks wrote: »

I’ve good time for Ming & MFitz
Stories I’ve heard how they’re helping farmers
We need a few more hard workers in elected seats

I’d take or leave him.
Some stuff he supports seems good and then he’s a pain in the hole abkut other stuff.

Definitely a squeaky wheel though if you get him hooked on your agenda

wrangler

_Brian wrote: »

I’d take or leave him.
Some stuff he supports seems good and then he’s a pain in the hole abkut other stuff.

Definitely a squeaky wheel though if you get him hooked on your agenda

They'll agree with everything you say knowing that they have no power or say, our minister for ag is a prime example

JohnChadwick

wrangler wrote: »

They'll agree with everything you say knowing that they have no power or say, our minister for ag is a prime example

Wondering are farners gone a bit too old and tired, not-bothered and apathetic to issues in recent times though. Like there is no one being held to account because farmers couldn't be bothered grouping together and holding these decision makers to account.

I know farm incomes are generally crap but you'd wonder does getting soft money in subs year in and year out mean the majority of farmers have a little less drive and makes them as a whole, sort of more useless in a way. It must play a part in it all surely. You can't put all the fault with the politicians, can you.

_Brian

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Wondering are farners gone a bit too old and tired, not-bothered and apathetic to issues in recent times though. Like there is no one being held to account because farmers couldn't be bothered grouping together and holding these decision makers to account.

I know farm incomes are generally crap but you'd wonder does getting soft money in subs year in and year out mean the majority of farmers have a little less drive and makes them as a whole, sort of more useless in a way. It must play a part in it all surely. You can't put all the fault with the politicians, can you.

Apathy isn’t a market cornered by farmers, it’s a society wide problem

wrangler

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Wondering are farners gone a bit too old and tired, not-bothered and apathetic to issues in recent times though. Like there is no one being held to account because farmers couldn't be bothered grouping together and holding these decision makers to account.

I know farm incomes are generally crap but you'd wonder does getting soft money in subs year in and year out mean the majority of farmers have a little less drive and makes them as a whole, sort of more useless in a way. It must play a part in it all surely. You can't put all the fault with the politicians, can you.

Even if ming or any other ming agrees with you they can't do anything,
Unless you meet the politicians in power you'll get nowhere, you have to be clever, people like fitzmaurice will speak the speak and then what.
On the forgotten farmers you have to doorstep the minister for ag and the minister for finance. They can't bluff their way then they'll have to deliver or explain why.
ming and fitzm will never do that

MIKEKC

JohnChadwick wrote: »

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/last-chance-saloon-for-forgotten-young-farmers-599697

Is anyone else in this group of 3900 forgotten (or 'old young') farmers?

What would be the way to go about lobbying on this - given the IFA etc. are only familiar with helping out pensioner farmers...

Not a good start to be knocking what you call pensioner farmers . Remember it's these farmers that built up the Basic Farm Payment to what it is today. Thus enabling the National Reserve to be set up. If you want support you would need to change your attitude.

MIKEKC

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Pippa Hackett from the Greens seems really tuned in, and possibly would engage more with this sort of thing?

Looking at the rural independent TD's and they are totally pensioner focused - well they have to be really given the demographics.

As for the Fianna Fail lads - you can give up.

Politics eh.

Not really, she didn't know that the organic beef price was almost the same as conventional price

blue5000

MIKEKC wrote: »

Not a good start to be knocking what you call pensioner farmers . Remember it's these farmers that built up the Basic Farm Payment to what it is today. Thus enabling the National Reserve to be set up. If you want support you would need to change your attitude.

That's a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas though isn't it? The CAP fund has got a bit smaller since brexit. If the cohort is to be funded, who pays? Perhaps brexit is part of the reason these young farmers got treated this way.

wrangler

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Wondering are farners gone a bit too old and tired, not-bothered and apathetic to issues in recent times though. Like there is no one being held to account because farmers couldn't be bothered grouping together and holding these decision makers to account.

I know farm incomes are generally crap but you'd wonder does getting soft money in subs year in and year out mean the majority of farmers have a little less drive and makes them as a whole, sort of more useless in a way. It must play a part in it all surely. You can't put all the fault with the politicians, can you.

Maybe Ther was apathy in my post, but this is what I was referring to,

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/fianna-fail-commits-to-forgotten-farmer-review-449773
It's time for forgotten farmers to move now and don't relent

JohnChadwick

MIKEKC wrote: »

Not a good start to be knocking what you call pensioner farmers . Remember it's these farmers that built up the Basic Farm Payment to what it is today. Thus enabling the National Reserve to be set up. If you want support you would need to change your attitude.

Will call them OAP farmers then to be more PC.

Wouldn't envisage getting any support from this group though, based on previous form.

wrangler

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Will call them OAP farmers then to be more PC.

Wouldn't envisage getting any support from this group though, based on previous form.

i'm at an age where my ''cohorts'' have signed over to your ''cohorts'' and they will be defending their Entitlements to the limit and they've got the benefit of a €60/ha topup for ''Coppers'' and the Skiing holiday to defend too.
You won't be getting much support there either

MIKEKC

MIKEKC wrote: »

Not really, she didn't know that the organic beef price was almost the same as conventional price

During the election they held an Ag press conference, her solution more farmers markets, and, in the same breath bemoaned how her local one was dying.

Tuned in, but to what frequency :rolleyes:

MIKEKC

blue5000 wrote: »

That's a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas though isn't it? The CAP fund has got a bit smaller since brexit. If the cohort is to be funded, who pays? Perhaps brexit is part of the reason these young farmers got treated this way.

This problem existed before Brexit. I realise the pot got smaller but any money that becomes available will surely have to come from CAP.

JohnChadwick

wrangler wrote: »

i'm at an age where my ''cohorts'' have signed over to your ''cohorts'' and they will be defending their Entitlements to the limit and they've got the benefit of a €60/ha topup for ''Coppers'' and the Skiing holiday to defend too.
You won't be getting much support there either

Well around 5% of irish farmers are under 35 so if you're saying you won't get much support from young farmers then you're bang on.

JohnChadwick

[Deleted User] wrote: »

During the election they held an Ag press conference, her solution more farmers markets, and, in the same breath bemoaned how her local one was dying.

Tuned in, but to what frequency :rolleyes:

To being PhD qualified and being an actual farmer, as well as coming across quite clued in. Not sure you can take an isolated comment as being much of anything really.

JohnChadwick

JohnChadwick wrote: »

To being PhD qualified and being an actual farmer, as well as coming across quite clued in. Not sure you can take an isolated comment as being much of anything really.

I'm not basing it on an isolated comment. Good luck with your lobbying.

JohnChadwick

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not basing it on an isolated comment. Good luck with your lobbying.

Righto.

alps

Push gov to find a solution...forgotten group dont have to offer the solution....

There were other ways to fix this in the past and dept ****e d up...couldn't rectify as that would show up as a mistake in Brussels..

The solution can't involve a proposal to take it from someone else...that may happen in the reform anyway...

It a gov problem...make them fix it..

Neddyusa

Dozer1 wrote: »

I'd have been one of these, its a dead duck numbers are small, Macra I think tried to organise something a few years back, installation aid the whole lot gone and no point looking back on it is my view, drive on with what you have

Exactly, i'm in the category too.

Missed out on both like you and was annoyed at the time but I wouldn't waste time even thinking about it now. That boat sailed 6 years ago lads.

JohnChadwick

alps wrote: »

Push gov to find a solution...forgotten group dont have to offer the solution....

There were other ways to fix this in the past and dept ****e d up...couldn't rectify as that would show up as a mistake in Brussels..

The solution can't involve a proposal to take it from someone else...that may happen in the reform anyway...

It a gov problem...make them fix it..

The government messed this up, and it'll get brushed over too - as the group affected are not even be bothered to form as a unit, nevermind push them for remedial action.

It is what it is.

Hard Knocks

JohnChadwick wrote: »

The government messed this up, and it'll get brushed over too - as the group affected are not even be bothered to form as a unit, nevermind push them for remedial action.

It is what it is.

If all 3900 of us stood together there would still be no notice taken
Brendan Smith term did the harm, not just to us but to all farmers
We just have to play the ball we’re given

alps

alps wrote: »

Pointless lobbying ones who voted to change the proposed new CAP into a different CAP version they preferred

Just for the record.

JohnChadwick

https://thatsfarming.com/beef/forgotten-farmers-new-cap/?amp=1

4,000 ‘forgotten farmers’ to receive payments under new CAP

brianb243

Can someone clarify exactly what defines a forgotten farmer.....what years are we talking about and age etc. Thanks