Top young centres in Ireland

bayern

Top young centres in Ireland, 23 and under:

1. Ciaran Frawley(23/Leinster)
2. James Hume(22/Ulster)
3. Tommy O'Brien(22/Leinster)
4. Stewart Moore(21/Ulster)
5. David Hawkshaw(21/Leinster)

Frawley has taken to his position from u20 rugby quite well and while he my need to bulk up a bit, has shown the ability to be a top playmaking 12, can he push Henshaw for his position anytime soon?
Hume has the size and big play ability, he needs to cut down on the defensive mistakes, how long until he is 1st choice for Ulster?
TOB has shown top level ability when healthy, will he settle long term at centre or on the wing?
Needs to see more of Moore and Hawkshaw but both look like attacking forces when given space and time.

Paul Smeenus

bayern wrote: »

Top young centres in Ireland, 23 and under:

1. Ciaran Frawley(23/Leinster)
2. James Hume(22/Ulster)
3. Tommy O'Brien(22/Leinster)
4. Stewart Moore(21/Ulster)
5. David Hawkshaw(21/Leinster)

Frawley has taken to his position from u20 rugby quite well and while he my need to bulk up a bit, has shown the ability to be a top playmaking 12, can he push Henshaw for his position anytime soon?
Hume has the size and big play ability, he needs to cut down on the defensive mistakes, how long until he is 1st choice for Ulster?
TOB has shown top level ability when healthy, will he settle long term at centre or on the wing?
Needs to see more of Moore and Hawkshaw but both look like attacking forces when given space and time.

If Graham Curtis come back fit, I'd have him comfortably ahead of Hawkshaw, and probably switch TOB and Moore.

bayern

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If Graham Curtis come back fit, I'd have him comfortably ahead of Hawkshaw, and probably switch TOB and Moore.

Angus Curtis and I don't agree.

Paul Smeenus

bayern wrote: »

Angus Curtis and I don't agree.

You're both right and wrong in that post.

Paul Smeenus

It is a position of comparative quality, though.

Dubinusa

I think Hume will get capped at some point. He is still learning and I think he's better suited to 12. T.O.B is class, so far and if he can get a run of games, he's going to be pushing for inclusion into Leinster's 23. Frawley is very skilled and an obvious playmaker, but I see him as a10. He could do a job in multiple positions too. Moore is also a great talent, but I think it will be some time before he gets past McCloskey. I did really rate Hawkshaw, but I am somewhat disappointed that he hasn't made strides this year. I think he's way down the pecking line at Leinster atm.

arsebiscuits1

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Hume will get capped at some point. He is still learning and I think he's better suited to 12. T.O.B is class, so far and if he can get a run of games, he's going to be pushing for inclusion into Leinster's 23. Frawley is very skilled and an obvious playmaker, but I see him as a10. He could do a job in multiple positions too. Moore is also a great talent, but I think it will be some time before he gets past McCloskey. I did really rate Hawkshaw, but I am somewhat disappointed that he hasn't made strides this year. I think he's way down the pecking line at Leinster atm.

Breaking in to senior rugby is tough enough. Breaking in to senior rugby after 19 months out with a debilitating knee injury is a different thing altogether.

I'm not sure what your expectations would be for someone after 5 sub appearances.

But after that period I'd like to see a preview of their potential. I think Hawkshaw has delivered on that

bayern

Yeah i think given the circumstances Hawkshaw has looked very good.

Paul Smeenus

Are Frawley/Hawkshaw settled as centres now?

bayern

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Are Frawley/Hawkshaw settled as centres now?

They'll both cover 10 when required so i'd expect they will both play 10 at times going forward either off the bench or moving there in game, especially as there no other young 10's in the academy at the moment.

arsebiscuits1

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Are Frawley/Hawkshaw settled as centres now?

Frawley definitely is.

Stuart has made a lot of reference to 10s at Leinster and the competition and his name has never been mentioned.

Hawkshaw I don't think they've fully settled on yet. But there is definite reluctance from the coaches to put too much faith in him at 10 at the moment.

Paul Smeenus

Cheers. I like me a footballing 10/12 a la Paddy Wallace (or even He Who Must Not Be Named Olding).

Hopefully Whatever He's Called Curtis can be that for Ulster. Although even in his early games, he looked more robust than Paddy.

bayern

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Cheers. I like me a footballing 10/12 a la Paddy Wallace (or even He Who Must Not Be Named Olding).

Hopefully Whatever He's Called Curtis can be that for Ulster. Although even in his early games, he looked more robust than Paddy.

More robust? hasn't he been injured for most of the past two seasons?

It will be interesting to see where he features upon his return, 10 or 12.

Paul Smeenus

bayern wrote: »

More robust? hasn't he been injured for most of the past two seasons?

It will be interesting to see where he features upon his return, 10 or 12.

Yeah, very poor choice of words!

Physical. Capable of doing a bit of fighting for hard yards when necessary. And a tough tackler.

But you're right - he's actually the opposite of robust.

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, very poor choice of words!

Physical. Capable of doing a bit of fighting for hard yards when necessary. And a tough tackler.

But you're right - he's actually the opposite of robust.

McFarland has always intimated that the main thing is Lowry gets game time, and referred to him as a ten, so I think we might see him start to get games at 10 when Bill leaves, especially when Addison and Stockdale are back, and as McIlroy starts to push through.

But yeah, I wondered if Curtis' extension was primarily inspired by Johnston going.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Cheers. I like me a footballing 10/12 a la Paddy Wallace (or even He Who Must Not Be Named Olding).

Hopefully Whatever He's Called Curtis can be that for Ulster. Although even in his early games, he looked more robust than Paddy.

Moore is a footballing centre and is better than Curtis IMO.

bilston

Personally I think Moore has a higher ceiling than Hume, but right now Hume is a better defender.

I havent seen enough of O'Brien to comment.

Frawley is the most experience and probably the next cab off the rank out of this group.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

Moore is a footballing centre and is better than Curtis IMO.

Completely agreed. I'd have Moore ahead of Curtis and O'Brien. But if we had a must win game tomorrow, I'd be more confident of victory with a fit Curtis than Hawkshaw. That's where he come for me.

bayern

Top underage centres:

1. Jamie Osborne(U20/Leinster)
2. Ben Carson(U19/Ulster)
3. Shane Jennings(U20/Connacht)
4. Karl Martin(U19/Leinster)
5. Jude Postlethwaite(U19/Ulster)

Paul Smeenus

bayern wrote: »

Top underage centres:

1. Jamie Osborne(U20/Leinster)
2. Ben Carson(U19/Ulster)
3. Shane Jennings(U20/Connacht)
4. Karl Martin(U19/Leinster)
5. Jude Postlethwaite(U19/Ulster)

With Hayden Hyde and Moxham stuck between those two lists. Dan Kelly too.

UAEguy2020

I’m a huge fan of Hayden Hyde also, surely can’t be too far away from getting an Ulster cap this season.

Paul Smeenus

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I’m a huge fan of Hayden Hyde also, surely can’t be too far away from getting an Ulster cap this season.

It'd be good to see, but there's a fair whack of young talent there already.

bayern

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

With Hayden Hyde and Moxham stuck between those two lists. Dan Kelly too.

Moxham hasn't really played centre from what i've seen, so he will be on wing list.

Kelly I didn't consider as he isn't in Ireland at the moment.

Hyde probably 6th on original list for me right now.

Paul Smeenus

bayern wrote: »

Moxham hasn't really played centre from what i've seen, so he will be on wing list.

Kelly I didn't consider as he isn't in Ireland at the moment.

Hyde probably 6th on original list for me right now.

Yeah, agree with all that.

No idea, in fact, why Moxham has senior caps ahead of Hyde, unless it's that he covers both centre and wing. Postlethwaite is the one I've heard hyped up.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Personally I think Moore has a higher ceiling than Hume, but right now Hume is a better defender.

I havent seen enough of O'Brien to comment.

Frawley is the most experience and probably the next cab off the rank out of this group.

I really rate Frawley but think his problem is going to be getting gametime in the bigger games for Leinster. On a Euro weekend you wouldn't even be sure he'd make the 23 at the moment. I definitely think he's good enough to step up anyway.

arsebiscuits1

Kori Colossal Ledge wrote: »

I really rate Frawley but think his problem is going to be getting gametime in the bigger games for Leinster. On a Euro weekend you wouldn't even be sure he'd make the 23 at the moment. I definitely think he's good enough to step up anyway.

He's a strong candidate for 22/23 shirt at present which is a good return.

He's also the next cab off the rank once Henshaw or Ringrose are injured. Both players have missed significant time with injury in recent years too.

There is plenty of time for him yet.

The only other option for him is a potential move to Munster where he would be first choice 12 (depending how long De Allende stays) Connacht and Ulster he'd be behind Aki and McCloskey respectively.

Rugby4568

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Completely agreed. I'd have Moore ahead of Curtis and O'Brien. But if we had a must win game tomorrow, I'd be more confident of victory with a fit Curtis than Hawkshaw. That's where he come for me.

Have you ever even seen Hawkshaw play? He wasn’t captain of Ireland u20s for no reason. I agree Moore is a very good player but I’d rate Hawkshaw ahead of Curtis and Moore. Every time he’s come on to play for Leinster he’s made an impact and stood out for me .
On his performance against Connacht while he was on for 23 minutes he had better stats than all the other players on the pitch that night even though he was only on for 23 minutes.
Metres made: 65
Carries: 6
Defenders beaten: 8
1 clean break
Tackles: 8
Next game he played against Scarlets he played 9 minutes, made a turn over, scored 1 try and got passed the gain line every time gaining 36 metres which is more than Ciaran Frawley who played 71 minutes.

Rugby4568

But if I was to have Hawkshaw and Moore on the same team I’d have them both starting with Hawkshaw at 12 and Moore at 13. Moore is really good but Hawkshaw is a more influential player imo

Dubinusa

I reckon Hume and T.O.B would be better defenders than the others. All of them do have potential and are great prospects. The problem is ..game time. They will be hard pressed to usurp the established players. I'd also add Liam Turner to the list. He's getting minutes and looks like he could progress.

Paul Smeenus

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Have you ever even seen Hawkshaw play? He wasn’t captain of Ireland u20s for no reason. I agree Moore is a very good player but I’d rate Hawkshaw ahead of Curtis and Moore. Every time he’s come on to play for Leinster he’s made an impact and stood out for me .
On his performance against Connacht while he was on for 23 minutes he had better stats than all the other players on the pitch that night even though he was only on for 23 minutes.
Metres made: 65
Carries: 6
Defenders beaten: 8
1 clean break
Tackles: 8
Next game he played against Scarlets he played 9 minutes, made a turn over, scored 1 try and got passed the gain line every time gaining 36 metres which is more than Ciaran Frawley who played 71 minutes.

If you're worried about stats, Moore had the most yards gained in the Pro14 earlier in the season. That's quiet an achievement at inside centre.

Hawkshaw has five appearances off the bench this season. Moore had two last season, and nine starts this season. I don't think Hawkshaw is better than Moore.

Rugby4568

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If you're worried about stats, Moore had the most yards gained in the Pro14 earlier in the season. That's quiet an achievement at inside centre.

Hawkshaw has five appearances off the bench this season. Moore had two last season, and nine starts this season. I don't think Hawkshaw is better than Moore.

Huh? If you knew anything about Hawkshaw you’d have known he’s been injured the past 18 months so he couldn’t play the past 18 months and is only starting to get game time off the bench now. All I did was state facts about Hawkshaw that when he came on against Connacht his stats were better than any other player on the pitch that night which is quite impressive for a player who just came back from an 18 month injury. I’ve been watching them both play for a long time and Hawkshaw got picked as squad captain for Ireland u20s which means he was always gonna start ahead of Moore even though Moore got injured just before the first game Hawkshaw was already named as captain which means the coaches rated Hawkshaw ahead of Moore.

Paul Smeenus

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Huh? If you knew anything about Hawkshaw you’d have known he’s been injured the past 18 months so he couldn’t play the past 18 months and is only starting to get game time off the bench now. All I did was state facts about Hawkshaw when he came on against Connacht that his stats were better than any other player on the pitch that night which is quite impressive for a player who just came back from an 18 month injury. I’ve been watching them both play for a long time and Hawkshaw got picked as squad captain for Ireland u20s which means he was always gonna start ahead of Moore even though Moore got injured just before the first game Hawkshaw was already named as captain which means the coaches rated Hawkshaw ahead of Moore.

Okay, lovely, fine.

My point is I'm really not sure comparing nine minutes against a knackered Scarlets team is the same as starting almost half the games of the season.

Also, now that they no longer play for the U20s and other -senior - metrics are available, I don't really care what happened then. Sometimes players leapfrog other players. We have an U20s captain in our Academy who has been passed by other players he captained, and in fact by a subsequent U20s captain who plays in the same position. I don't really care.

You're entitled to your opinion. Hawkshaw and Moore's relative performances might change my mind, the logic that several years ago Hawkshaw was captain and Moore wasn't, won't. Good luck.

Rugby4568

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Okay, lovely, fine.

My point is I'm really not sure comparing nine minutes against a knackered Scarlets team is the same as starting almost half the games of the season.

Also, now that they no longer play for the U20s and other -senior - metrics are available, I don't really care what happened then. Sometimes players leapfrog other players. We have an U20s captain in our Academy who has been passed by other players he captained, and in fact by a subsequent U20s captain who plays in the same position. I don't really care.

You're entitled to your opinion. Hawkshaw and Moore's relative performances might change my mind, the logic that several years ago Hawkshaw was captain and Moore wasn't, won't. Good luck.

Fair enough