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Is a PHEV/hybrid suitable for me and recommendations?

  • 31-01-2021 11:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭ oakshade


    Looking to change car on the next 6 months or so. Currently on diesel due to previous high mileage driving but that's changing. A typical week will look like.

    Three days a week - max 20km driving
    Two days a week - 50km each way with ability to charge at work. Mainly country road driving
    Weekends - from 0km to 400km and everything in between.

    Not ready to go full electric just yet.

    Being environmental is important to me but cost savings over 4 years are more important.

    Budget 45K.

    Much appreciated.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭ graememk


    oakshade wrote: »
    Looking to change car on the next 6 months or so. Currently on diesel due to previous high mileage driving but that's changing. A typical week will look like.

    Three days a week - max 20km driving
    Two days a week - 50km each way with ability to charge at work. Mainly country road driving
    Weekends - from 0km to 400km and everything in between.

    Not ready to go full electric just yet.

    Being environmental is important to me but cost savings over 4 years are more important.

    Budget 45K.

    Much appreciated.

    You sure your not ready to take the plunge?

    Kona, E- Niro, E Soul, id4 can do all that without charging. - all under your budget.

    400 km is easy in the summer, winter, you might need a 10 min topup somewhere.

    For some ball park maths, generally a EV will us on average 18(16-20) kwh/100km

    Charging on night rate its (€0.074/kwh) is about €1.3 for 100km

    compare that to what your current car costs you.

    People have asked us has our electricity bill gone up? have 20k km done on ours. and our bill has gone down.

    We switched to night rate, and also moved some of the high loads to night rate. - we also switched providers, but we would normally switch every year to the best deal anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    oakshade wrote: »
    Not ready to go full electric just yet.

    Being environmental is important to me but cost savings over 4 years are more important.

    Budget 45K.

    Unless you have a particular need not to go full electric, I'd be suggesting the VW ID.4 - out in a few months, it'd be a no brainer with that budget. Biggest running cost savings available too.

    If you wanted an executive saloon say, I'd suggest a BMW 530e (PHEV), but that's not what I'd be going for now, if I were you, unless you again, specifically wanted such a car.

    Do you want an SUV, hatchback, saloon, must be new etc.? Lots of questions to narrow it down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭ oakshade


    graememk wrote: »
    You sure your not ready to take the plunge?

    No. I'm not there just yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭ oakshade


    Kramer wrote: »

    Do you want an SUV, hatchback, saloon, must be new etc.? Lots of questions to narrow it down.

    Appreciate the reply. Tourer/Estate or Hatchback. Would look at an SUV with a relatively decent bootspace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭ graememk


    oakshade wrote: »
    Appreciate the reply. Tourer/Estate or Hatchback. Would look at an SUV with a relatively decent bootspace.

    Looking like a done deal for an ID4 :P

    Review from Irish reviewer going live tomorrow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFogy73oqMs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭ oakshade


    graememk wrote: »
    Looking like a done deal for an ID4 :P

    Review from Irish reviewer going live tomorrow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFogy73oqMs

    Appreciate the response but for reasons outside of my control I need the backup of a traditional engine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,783 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    oakshade wrote: »
    Appreciate the response but for reasons outside of my control I need the backup of a traditional engine.

    Latest versions of 330e and 530e will do the majority of your weekday driving on electric.
    Would be a great option.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    graememk wrote: »
    Looking like a done deal for an ID4 :P

    Review from Irish reviewer going live tomorrow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFogy73oqMs

    Irish review already live.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    oakshade wrote: »
    Appreciate the response but for reasons outside of my control I need the backup of a traditional engine.

    Any PHEV will work for the 20km trips.
    The 50km each way will not be covered by most if not all of the PHEV’s out there.

    The 400km trip. That will be all on petrol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭ Greenlights16


    My question is : just how much does your mpg/fuel economy suffer on these PHEVs once the electric range is gone?

    I’ll have to do a 2.5hr drive to Dublin or 220miles/354km return 1-2 times per week with no idea if I’ll get charging at work. There are chargers but only 3 and usually hogged by the directors/big shots.

    When I’m searching car reviews and specs, for example on auto trader the running costs for hybrids are always given as combined mpg but never shows what it’ll be once your electric range is gone?

    I’m told because of the battery you’re carrying etc you’re actually better off still with a very economic diesel, as the mpg drops significantly once the electric range is gone. Plus- is the tank for your fuel backup much smaller?

    I don’t want to drive down the country some weekend for leisure , only to discover my electric range is gone and I have to fill up the fuel more so than I normally would.

    With all due respect to electric and hybrids, the cars are not at the attractiveness level yet that petrol or diesels offer, never mind their range. I think I’ll wait a few years , I’d love to change to them though.

    Most of the cars named above on this page, Niro, ID3 , Ioniq etc are quite ugly. Kia, Hyundai, not exactly known for blowing you away .


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    I’m told because of the battery you’re carrying etc you’re actually better off still with a very economic diesel, as the mpg drops significantly once the electric range is gone. Plus- is the tank for your fuel backup much smaller?

    don't forget that when the electric battery is depleted, and the petrol engine turns on, it's charging the battery as well as propelling the car, so yeah, mpg will be very uneconomical, but you won't mind that if you're only doing it once a month, and everything else is done on electric only..


    My opinion for the OP, if your not ready to go full EV, stick with a diesel.

    OP's usage scenario is very like ours was ... 50-100km a day, and up to 300-400km on weekends (when restrictions allowed). We went from a diesel to full EV, and have not noticed a whole lot of change.

    on the longer trips, we'd either plug into an AC for the 1-2 hours we were 'there', or stop for a quick DC 'fast' charge on the way there or on the way home for a coffee/toilet break.
    To date we have not been sat in the car waiting for it to sufficiently charge in order to get home, we have always left when it was time to leave... (coffee drank, toilets used etc...).


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    Most of the cars named above on this page, Niro, ID3 , Ioniq etc are quite ugly. Kia, Hyundai, not exactly known for blowing you away .

    Op's budget is close to Tesla Model 3 territory.. but a lot of people think they are ugly too!!

    Also, a Tesla Model 3 (even the slowest one), will blow most cars on the road away performance wise.

    and in summer, and if you drive at 90km/h, you'll easily achieve the SR+'s 448km (WLTP) range


  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭ Greenlights16


    don't forget that when the electric battery is depleted, and the petrol engine turns on, it's charging the battery as well as propelling the car, so yeah, mpg will be very uneconomical, but you won't mind that if you're only doing it once a month, and everything else is done on electric only..


    My opinion for the OP, if your not ready to go full EV, stick with a diesel.

    OP's usage scenario is very like ours was ... 50-100km a day, and up to 300-400km on weekends (when restrictions allowed). We went from a diesel to full EV, and have not noticed a whole lot of change.

    on the longer trips, we'd either plug into an AC for the 1-2 hours we were 'there', or stop for a quick DC 'fast' charge on the way there or on the way home for a coffee/toilet break.
    To date we have not been sat in the car waiting for it to sufficiently charge in order to get home, we have always left when it was time to leave... (coffee drank, toilets used etc...).

    You haven’t noticed a whole lot of change in terms of ? It hasn’t been a hassle?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    You haven’t noticed a whole lot of change in terms of ? It hasn’t been a hassle?

    The only change is no longer going into petrol stations for day to day use, and not having diesel smelling hands after filling up.

    Going EV for us was always a faraway thought of 'some day we'll do it', and when our diesel BMW started giving an unsolvable electrical issue, we were going to import an Audi A6 from the U.K., but one day saw a Tesla Model 3 on the road one day and realised 'oh yeah, the Model 3 is finally here and available', so went out to have a look at it in the showroom, and placed the order 2 weeks later.

    Up to that point we had never even driven an EV, and only test drove a Model 3 about 2 weeks before collecting ours!!!

    10 months & 21,000km later, we do not regret it for 1 second.

    Incidentally I was able to fix the BMW (that BMW themselves as well as an Indy could not fix) about a week before collecting the Tesla by simply installing a 2nd hand alternator bought from eBay...


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,783 ✭✭✭✭ mickdw


    My question is : just how much does your mpg/fuel economy suffer on these PHEVs once the electric range is gone?

    I’ll have to do a 2.5hr drive to Dublin or 220miles/354km return 1-2 times per week with no idea if I’ll get charging at work. There are chargers but only 3 and usually hogged by the directors/big shots.

    When I’m searching car reviews and specs, for example on auto trader the running costs for hybrids are always given as combined mpg but never shows what it’ll be once your electric range is gone?

    I’m told because of the battery you’re carrying etc you’re actually better off still with a very economic diesel, as the mpg drops significantly once the electric range is gone. Plus- is the tank for your fuel backup much smaller?

    I don’t want to drive down the country some weekend for leisure , only to discover my electric range is gone and I have to fill up the fuel more so than I normally would.

    With all due respect to electric and hybrids, the cars are not at the attractiveness level yet that petrol or diesels offer, never mind their range. I think I’ll wait a few years , I’d love to change to them though.

    Most of the cars named above on this page, Niro, ID3 , Ioniq etc are quite ugly. Kia, Hyundai, not exactly known for blowing you away .

    Doing the longer trip twice per week would probably mean phev is not great for you.
    That said, even after battery depleted, they still have alot of efficiencies built in such as having engine off in traffic (some battery retained f o r this), regeneration on slowing down etc plus the initial 20 miles on battery will also bump up your average mpg even on a long journey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,206 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    My question is : just how much does your mpg/fuel economy suffer on these PHEVs once the electric range is gone?

    I’ll have to do a 2.5hr drive to Dublin or 220miles/354km return 1-2 times per week with no idea if I’ll get charging at work. There are chargers but only 3 and usually hogged by the directors/big shots.

    That requirement rules out BEV for you, imo.

    If it was, say, once a week or once a month it would be fine as long as you were willing to take a charge stop along the way but having to do it a few times a week is a big no no unless you have time and patience!

    Some PHEV's are still reasonably efficient when the battery is dead.
    See the middle of my post here
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111052681&postcount=106

    Basically, about 5l/100km at motorway speed. Not bad really. Its in diesel territory and obviously you will have all the other days of the week where it will consume no petrol and give very cheap running costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,206 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    oakshade wrote: »
    Looking to change car on the next 6 months or so. Currently on diesel due to previous high mileage driving but that's changing. A typical week will look like.

    Three days a week - max 20km driving
    Two days a week - 50km each way with ability to charge at work. Mainly country road driving
    Weekends - from 0km to 400km and everything in between.

    Not ready to go full electric just yet.

    Being environmental is important to me but cost savings over 4 years are more important.

    Budget 45K.

    Much appreciated.

    A PHEV is perfectly suited for that driving pattern assuming you have a driveway and can charge the car everyday. Better again if you can charge it at your daily destination.

    Charging every night is important if financial savings is what you are after, which is what you said.

    Plenty PHEV's to choose from now... the GTE ranges from VW, Ioniq, Niro, Outlander, a bunch of BMW's etc etc.... just check their EV only ranges as not all of them will do 50km in EV mode.


  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭ Greenlights16


    Thanks KCross, very helpful, looked at your answered questions.

    Yep, to put it into context a bit more this is my journey:

    I currently drive a 2011 VW Golf 1.6 TDI Match BlueMotion Tech - :
    - I reckon it's about 45mpg but more sometimes, quite economical IMO. I don't fill it up often, maybe once a month.

    My circumstances are going to change.
    - I will be making a 220mile/355km round trip (110m e/way) to Dublin for work once a week, about a 2.5 hr drive each way, as I've bought a new home.
    43 miles of the first part of the journey is on main roads, single carriageway, 60mph speed limit. Then I hit the M1 motorway and it's 68 miles the whole way, M50 motorway with the last 2 miles into the city centre D4 office.

    - Outside of this, I will be working from home 3-4 days per week and the car will probably not move far some days as the new home is in a town, if it does, it will be less than 20km trip, (groceries, gym etc)
    Once a month at weekend, I'll make a 256 mile round trip/3hrs eway down to the in-laws. Maybe at the weekend we'll take a 40/50 mile journey once a month also.

    All in there, I don't know, you're probably looking at under 300 miles per week - 15,000 miles per year worst-case scenario.

    I'm not sure if i'd get a charging point in Dublin when I do that journey once per week, never mind a space in car park.

    I fully intend on getting the home charging point grant for the new home but that wont be to April move in. IF I bother with a hybrid at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭ graememk


    Thanks KCross, very helpful, looked at your answered questions.

    Yep, to put it into context a bit more this is my journey:

    I currently drive a 2011 VW Golf 1.6 TDI Match BlueMotion Tech - :
    - I reckon it's about 45mpg but more sometimes, quite economical IMO. I don't fill it up often, maybe once a month.

    My circumstances are going to change.
    - I will be making a 220mile/355km round trip (110m e/way) to Dublin for work once a week, about a 2.5 hr drive each way, as I've bought a new home.
    43 miles of the first part of the journey is on main roads, single carriageway, 60mph speed limit. Then I hit the M1 motorway and it's 68 miles the whole way, M50 motorway with the last 2 miles into the city centre D4 office.

    - Outside of this, I will be working from home 3-4 days per week and the car will probably not move far some days as the new home is in a town, if it does, it will be less than 20km trip, (groceries, gym etc)
    Once a month at weekend, I'll make a 256 mile round trip/3hrs eway down to the in-laws. Maybe at the weekend we'll take a 40/50 mile journey once a month also.

    All in there, I don't know, you're probably looking at under 300 miles per week - 15,000 miles per year worst-case scenario.

    I'm not sure if i'd get a charging point in Dublin when I do that journey once per week, never mind a space in car park.

    I fully intend on getting the home charging point grant for the new home but that wont be to April move in. IF I bother with a hybrid at all.

    In the summer that run would be no problem for the big battery cars (Kona, Niro, Soul, id4, m3 long range for example). in the winter A quick topup would be needed "somewhere" No more than 15 mins, Enough time to grab a tea/coffee/pee

    Depending on how far north you have to go, If you have a tesla, theres a supercharger as castlebellingham, if not theres an ESB ecars there too.. a lonely one tho..

    but both north and south bound

    Going further south there is ionity at city north (2 stalls i think atm) (bit pricey, but more likely to be empty)

    Another north south pair at lusk

    Looks like another one just off the motorway at turvey,(swords exit)
    Another one at the M50 Junction

    There is options, and from experience of the niro you wont need a huge amount to get you home. - we have done a similar run donegal to belfast and back in the summer and still had 80km left on the GOM when we got home.

    There is also a discount on tolls which could come into play (75% i think)

    Just throwing some options out there :) - but for doing big miles, you start to save a lot on fuel costs, even if you have to top up at relatively (compared to night rate) expensive fast chargers. ( Assuming that you are still going to be in the ROI, NI does have economy 7 too, but i dont know much more than that)


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    My circumstances are going to change.
    - I will be making a 220mile/355km round trip (110m e/way) to Dublin for work once a week, about a 2.5 hr drive each way, as I've bought a new home.
    43 miles of the first part of the journey is on main roads, single carriageway, 60mph speed limit. Then I hit the M1 motorway and it's 68 miles the whole way, M50 motorway with the last 2 miles into the city centre D4 office.

    Thats Tesla territory all day long. Even in an SR+

    On that trip, you'd need to stop at Castlebellingham on the way home, and plug into a Tesla Supercharger (of which there are 8*) for 4-8 minutes to get you back home comfortably (driving at speed limits all the way).

    *theres another 8 on the other side of the road on the southbound carriageway.

    There'll also be a supercharger in Lisburn soon enough.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭ Greenlights16


    Deadly stuff lads, men in the know!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    Basically when a PHEV's battery is dead the consumption is the same as the equivalent petrol, maybe a little more to account for the weight. If you can charge at home and keep a lot of your journeys within electric range then you'll see a benefit

    I believe this would hold true even with several long journeys a week, you're still saving on the 3 days a week you aren't taking that journey (5 if you don't drive much at weekends)

    My basic and narrow minded view is that if you can't find a BEV that suits your needs (range or charging availability) then go get a PHEV and try to stay within the electric range as much as possible


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Miscreant


    Basically when a PHEV's battery is dead the consumption is the same as the equivalent petrol, maybe a little more to account for the weight. If you can charge at home and keep a lot of your journeys within electric range then you'll see a benefit

    I believe this would hold true even with several long journeys a week, you're still saving on the 3 days a week you aren't taking that journey (5 if you don't drive much at weekends)

    My basic and narrow minded view is that if you can't find a BEV that suits your needs (range or charging availability) then go get a PHEV and try to stay within the electric range as much as possible

    A PHEV will act like a normal hybrid once the battery is depleted to a certain point so there will always be some sort of assistance there, albeit not quite as much.

    I have a Toyota hybrid at the moment and regularly get 50Mpg+ on a long trip (over 200kms) and can see the electric motor providing assistance at times even up to 100Kph. Tomorrow, I am switching to a PHEV so I will be curious to see how that will change but with Level 5 lockdown at the moment, I am only doing city mileage (grocery shopping and checking on my parents who live near). I have been reading on the PHEV owner forums that in to the 50s MPG wise is perfectly achievable over a long distance so at the very least, I will not be worse off.

    Why did I not choose a BEV this time? The long journey I undertake is twice a month and 220km each way (440km total but over 2 days). I am not prepared to halt my journey for a charge (I usually 1 shot it) and I don't have €40k to drop on a BEV with the range I would require. Nor can I afford more than €200 per month in repayments so financing a new BEV is out the door too. Once they have hit the second hand market I will reconsider but that will be a few years down the line.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    don't forget that when the electric battery is depleted, and the petrol engine turns on, it's charging the battery as well as propelling the car, so yeah, mpg will be very uneconomical

    That's not how most/all PHEVs work. They can just harvest energy from braking/slowing, like a hybrid, or can maintain charge, again, like a hybrid.
    Yes they are carrying extra weight, but often they are more efficient in terms of rolling resistance, drag coefficient, transmission etc. & this efficiency can largely make up for the extra weight.
    Basically when a PHEV's battery is dead the consumption is the same as the equivalent petrol, maybe a little more to account for the weight.

    if you can't find a BEV that suits your needs (range or charging availability) then go get a PHEV and try to stay within the electric range as much as possible

    The thing is when the PHEV battery is depleted (they never get fully depleted), they still have many of the advantages of a hybrid, as well as the extra boost/torque from the electric motor.
    I'm familiar with the 530e in this regard, which always has 250+bhp available, whereas a petrol only 520i, would have 180bhp (same 2l petrol engine).

    It also makes little sense to buy a PHEV, but then try to never use the ICE in it.
    Yes, the more electric only running, the greater the savings, but there are many other attributes to be considered when deciding on hybrid/PHEV, BEV, or even diesel :eek:.

    Like everything, it's not black or white, but one of at least 50 shades of gray :D.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    Miscreant wrote: »
    A PHEV will act like a normal hybrid once the battery is depleted to a certain point so there will always be some sort of assistance there, albeit not quite as much


    I'm not sure that's universally true.


    I believe the Kia PHEVs will sit at 0% in Eco mode, unless you regen to charge up the battery


    I think in Sport mode it'll charge the battery to ~10% and use it to provide a boost from the electric motor when acclerating


    AFAIK the BMW PHEVs will charge up a bit as well


    As much as I don't like to admit it, the REX concept is better than a PHEV IMO. A big battery and fast charging to allow true EV style driving and a small generator which is user controlled and will trickle charge the battery on long trips if required


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭ Kramer


    As much as I don't like to admit it, the REX concept is better than a PHEV IMO. A big battery and fast charging to allow true EV style driving and a small generator which is user controlled and will trickle charge the battery on long trips if required

    Not to mention the ability to avoid cold battery charging issues :pac:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭ the_amazing_raisin


    Kramer wrote: »
    Not to mention the ability to avoid cold battery charging issues :pac:.


    Yeah I REALLY hope Mad_lad isn't reading this thread :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭ Miscreant


    As much as I don't like to admit it, the REX concept is better than a PHEV IMO. A big battery and fast charging to allow true EV style driving and a small generator which is user controlled and will trickle charge the battery on long trips if required

    I agree with you on this one but there are very few on the market here that are REx. The i3 version is available 2nd hand and the Chevy (Opel/Vauxhall) ones were never sold here officially. Other than those 2, we are left with the possibility of a Mazda coming soon with a Rotary REx. I am not aware of anything else with a REx (but am open to correction).

    It all really depends on your own use case in the end. I originally chose a Hybrid based on my needs at the time (I had to get out of a fuel guzzling, 25mpg car to something more efficient) and have chosen PHEV for my requirements this time (I have outlined my reasons in this thread already) and will look at BEV when it is time to change.

    To the OP: Have a look at your own usage. You will get a lot on here pushing for BEV as this is what suits them and they believe it will suit you as a result. Sometimes the choice comes down to personal preference, other times it will be finances. Once you make sure to look at all the options open to you and have made a decision, don't worry about what anyone else says. You get what suits you/your family at the end of the day. :)
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