The 2030 electric car switchover. Have they considered people living in apartments?

Lastblackdog

With the mandatory switch to the sale of electric cars in 2030 I have wondered if any consideration has been given to the large number of people who live in apartments.

As far as I am aware, there are few apartment complexes in Ireland that have any electric charging places never mind enough to cater for the number of people who will have to purchase one in the next ten years.

It is one thing to have an access point installed outside your house but it is another thing entirely to have one (or more than one) installed in an underground car park.

At the moment the numbers are low enough that the few apartment dwellers that have an electric car have probably manage so sort of an ad hoc arrangement.

My personal reason for musing this point at the moment is that I am in my mid 60's, I drive an 8 year old diesel car and live in a house. At some point I will need trade in my car for a newer model (currently a car is a necessity - who knows about the future). In addition, as I get older I have considered downsizing an moving to an apartment where the outside will be maintained for me (for a price).

Obviously not an urgent problem to have but these things have a way of creeping up on you and, without the benefit of plenty of time, can force one to choose for a less than ideal option.

I wonder if others have had similar thoughts on the subject.

I have an EV without charging available at my residence.
My company will pay for installation of a chargepoint but then my landlord would benefit were I to move so I haven't availed of the option.
I get by without too much difficulty and will definitely get by easier when the next car comes with faster charging. You'll be fine.

Smee_Again

Sounds like a landlord/apartment owner problem.

I should add developer too.

All these will need to address this issue.

freddieot

I must have missed the plan for the Nuclear Power station or two that we will need to charge all our new EVs in 2030.

About 9 years to sort that out as well as install 10s of thousands of charging points.

This Government can't stop people going to Lanzarote for their hols in the middle of a pandemic lockdown which says you can't go 5k beyond your house except for essential reasons so with their input, I don't think SKYNET and the diesel Terminators will completely take over by 2030.

There will be a lot of faff and hand gestures from those in power though as to why it is running years behind schedule and why it was perhaps in hindsight overly ambitious etc. By then as well, road tax for EVs will be pretty much the same as for diesel and petrol - simple economics - they must raise the money somehow to replace the drop in diesel\ petrol numbers.

JCDUB

It's a very good point, one which has been totally ignored by government.

I would buy an EV in a heartbeat, but I live in a mid terraced house with on street parking.

My only option would be to run a cable out my front door/window and over to the car. I'd say within a month I'd have some scrote lying on the ground outside my house looking for 30 grand for distress and loss of earnings.

I posted in the EV forum last year about this and was told that, at the moment, no solutions are available for this situation.

Wishbone Ash

JCDUB wrote: »

..., but I live in a mid terraced house with on street parking.

My only option would be to run a cable out my front door/window and over to the car....

It would be even more difficult for me as I live on a street but there is no parking permitted on my side so a cable would have to run across the footpath and street.

Leonard Hofstadter

As the sale of petrols and diesels has NOT been banned from 2030 onwards (despite popular myth), I don't think you need to worry OP for now. It probably will happen (and Euro 7 is meant to be so difficult it will be very hard to do without heavy electrification of the drivetrain anyway), but it has not happened yet.

The only country that has banned the sale of fossil fuel powered cars is the UK, and that's not until 2035 (you're still allowed sell plug-ins between 2030 and 2034 over there).

TooObvious

Any new builds coming on stream now are limited in terms of their parking so the views on apartment owners in the future is that they will use rental cars more, along with good public transport and bikes etc - that's the idea anyway. Old developments may seek to bring in electric chargers, however my view on this is that it's not worth the hassle to do so for multiple reasons - cost/equity/title - and the hope is that private industry will end up coming to the rescue with fast chargers located in current filling stations.

AnonZen

Is wireless charging a thing with EV?

Edit: Just did a quick search, looks like it took 13 years just to agree a standard. Might be a bit off yet.

liamog

freddieot wrote: »

I must have missed the plan for the Nuclear Power station or two that we will need to charge all our new EVs in 2030.

You will be surprised at the power requirements to charge 2,000,000 EVs.
I'll do the math so you don't have too

2,000,000 Cars covering the average Irish Mileage of 17,000km and an average efficiency of 20kWh/100km (number is on the high side of normal) we can assume a 90% efficiency in the car charge (low, they're usually between 90% and 95%). I'm even going to use a 48 week year, to cover 4 weeks of reduced usage for holidays.

So that gives a per car requirement of 3,777kWh/year (17,000/100*20/0.9). I'll round that to 3,800kWh. Over 48 weeks, that's 79.1kWh/week, I'll round to 80 kWh. With 2,000,000 cars, that gives a weekly energy requirement of 160,000,000kWh aka 160GWh.

There are 7 days in a week, but let's assume charging only happens on 5 of those days. Giving a daily energy requirement of 32GWh. Using some smart metering incentives (or the current night rate scheme) we ensure that every person plugs their car for the 9 hours that are currently discounted. That gives an hourly energy requirement of 3.5GWh.

According to data published on smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com our daily peak generation is around 7 GWh, and our nightly trough goes down to 3.5GWh. So the extra power generation required to power those 2,000,000 EVs can essentially be supplied by levelling the peak and trough of our existing generation capacity. This has the double advantage of giving us a much more steady demand which is overall a good thing for the network.

Throughout this example, I've constantly picked options which will result in higher load on the electricity distribution network.

TL/DR we basically already have the capacity to charge the cars and no nuclear power stations are required.

argolis

If they were realistic about it, they'd probably mandate that all new builds are wired for an EV and any apartment blocks must be constructed to support EVs in on street/underground parking. But afaik they haven't added anything to building regulations so I assume it's a token initiative that shows they'd like to do it but they're not that serious.

Even when fines are levied for not meeting carbon emission goals, the government would rather pay the fines than actually try to meet the targets because it's more effort, nobody's job depends on it and they're paying these fines with other people's money.

liamog

Here you go https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/29d5e6-review-of-building-regulations-part-l-conservation-of-fuel-and-energ/
The consultation is being reviewed and not yet active but the changes in Part L proposed were

1.4.6 Electric Vehicle Recharging Infrastructure

1.4.6.1 For new multi-unit buildings ducting infrastructure, namely conduits for electric cables, should be provided for every parking space, to enable the installation of recharging points for electric vehicles where:
- the car park is located inside the building, e.g. a basement car park; and/ or
- the car park is physically adjacent to the building, i.e. the car park is within the curtilage of the site.
Where a new multi-unit building contains mixed uses, i.e. dwellings and non-dwellings, the minimum recharging infrastructure provisions for each use should be provided. Guidance on appropriate ductinginfrastructure is provided in Paragraph1.4.6.3.

1.4.6.2 For a new dwelling house with a car parking space located within the curtilage of the dwelling house, electric vehicle recharging infrastructure should be provided for the future installation of an electric vehicle recharging point. Guidance on appropriate infrastructure is provided in Paragraph 1.4.6.4.

1.4.6.3 Multi-unit Building Ducting Infrastructure Ducting infrastructure includes all electrical containment, e.g. cable ducting systems, cable ladders, cable trays, cable trunking systems, conduit, etc. as outlined in the National Rules for Electrical Installations I.S. 10101:20XX.
Where ducting infrastructure is installed the guidance below should be followed:
(a) ducting infrastructure should be adequately designed to meet the full capacity of all recharging points when installed;
(b) ducting infrastructure should be appropriately sized for electric vehicle recharging point capacity;
(c) ducting infrastructure should be fit for purpose, capped as appropriate and clearly identified;
(d) ducting infrastructure should be routed back to a suitable location with electrical supply access and adequate space provided to accommodate all recharging point ducting connections and electrical supply equipment;
(e) ducting infrastructure and associated electrical equipment, etc. should be adequately designed for maintenance access; and
(f) ducting infrastructure, including associated electrical equipment, etc. should be installed in accordance with the general wiring rules and safety requirements as outlined in I.S. 10101:20XX.

1.4.6.4 Dwelling House Electric Vehicle Recharging Infrastructure
Adequate provision to enable the installation of an electric vehicle recharging point should include appropriate electric vehicle recharging infrastructure to the car parking space. The infrastructure should be installed in accordance with I.S. 10101:20XX.
Appropriate electric vehicle recharging infrastructure should provide a safe, unobstructed route, e.g. ducting infrastructure, from a metered electrical supply point to a future recharging point location, to enable the installation of an electric vehicle recharging point without the need for builders work.
The full installation of an electric vehicle recharging point can be considered to provide appropriate electric vehicle recharging infrastructure where installed.

kirving

liamog wrote: »

Using some smart metering incentives (or the current night rate scheme) we ensure that every person plugs their car for the 9 hours that are currently discounted.

Throughout this example, I've constantly picked options which will result in higher load on the electricity distribution network.

TL/DR we basically already have the capacity to charge the cars and no nuclear power stations are required.

Just to add, link to daily demand profile. Best set to Weekly view to get the best picture. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/demand

That's true to a certain extent, but it relies totally on incentives (or disincentives as the case may be) to limit the load on the grid any one time.

People coming home from work and cooking probably create the biggest demand currently. I don't have a night rate meter (not worth it for my PHEV a few days a week) so I just plug in whenever I get home.

At worst case, I'd need a smart charger which could disabled or throttled if absolutely necessary by the grid operator to manage load at specific times, but that's pretty unpalatable if I had a BEV and actually needed to go out later that day.

As charging gets faster and faster, then battery size will likely reduce as a cost-down tactic by manufactures. 150km of battery is more than enough if you can charge again in 5 minutes. But then you become very reliant on that charging network. So in the morning time when people get up and forgot to charge the night before or because it was lashing rain and they didn't bother, there could be a massive load on the grid due to fast chargers.

Nothing we can't work out of course, and even at that I think the main load issues are probably more local, right? Like can the box at the end of the road support X number of fast chargers?

liamog

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Just to add, link to daily demand profile. Best set to Weekly view to get the best picture. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/demand

That's true to a certain extent, but it relies totally on incentives (or disincentives as the case may be) to limit the load on the grid any one time.

Indeed, it's more of an indicative assessment to show that's it's not a build a Sellafield in every town kind of problem.

Del2005

liamog wrote: »

You will be surprised at the power requirements to charge 2,000,000 EVs.
I'll do the math so you don't have too

2,000,000 Cars covering the average Irish Mileage of 17,000km and an average efficiency of 20kWh/100km (number is on the high side of normal) we can assume a 90% efficiency in the car charge (low, they're usually between 90% and 95%). I'm even going to use a 48 week year, to cover 4 weeks of reduced usage for holidays.

So that gives a per car requirement of 3,777kWh/year (17,000/100*20/0.9). I'll round that to 3,800kWh. Over 48 weeks, that's 79.1kWh/week, I'll round to 80 kWh. With 2,000,000 cars, that gives a weekly energy requirement of 160,000,000kWh aka 160GWh.

There are 7 days in a week, but let's assume charging only happens on 5 of those days. Giving a daily energy requirement of 32GWh. Using some smart metering incentives (or the current night rate scheme) we ensure that every person plugs their car for the 9 hours that are currently discounted. That gives an hourly energy requirement of 3.5GWh.

According to data published on smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com our daily peak generation is around 7 GWh, and our nightly trough goes down to 3.5GWh. So the extra power generation required to power those 2,000,000 EVs can essentially be supplied by levelling the peak and trough of our existing generation capacity. This has the double advantage of giving us a much more steady demand which is overall a good thing for the network.

Throughout this example, I've constantly picked options which will result in higher load on the electricity distribution network.

TL/DR we basically already have the capacity to charge the cars and no nuclear power stations are required.

Yet only a few weeks ago the network was on amber alert due to no wind and lack of daylight during the winter, big users had to run diesels generators or turn off equipment. So we have the capacity on windy summer days, but not on cold frosty nights. What will we do when we have all electric cars and cold frosty weather? People won't be feeding back to the grid when they want their cars pre-warmed and that'll be at the same time the load will be greatest.

There was a grant announced at budget the year before last to give to current MUDs to develop EV charging infrastructure but that was all they did.

DaveyDave

It's not just apartments, South Dublin County Council have planning regulations in place to limit driveways to 60% of a development. That means everyone else gets parking spaces with a public path outside your front door so you can't install a charger. I want to buy an EV this year but I have on street parking and need to contact local councilors and SDCC to come up with a solution.

The fact that so many new houses are being built with this limitation is ridiculous knowing people will have to switch in a few years with so many already wanting to switch but can't.

liamog

Del2005 wrote: »

Yet only a few weeks ago the network was on amber alert due to no wind and lack of daylight during the winter, big users had to run diesels generators or turn off equipment. So we have the capacity on windy summer days, but not on cold frosty nights. What will we do when we have all electric cars and cold frosty weather? People won't be feeding back to the grid when they want their cars pre-warmed and that'll be at the same time the load will be greatest.

The alert in December was a good one, 2/3 units at Moneypoint suffered a technical failure, similarly Whitegate was down, and Tarbert couldn't respond. In the meanwhile we were still actively exporting power to the UK. A total of 1.25GW of generation was unexpectedly missing, and yet we still didn't get a power cut.
We've had a combination of high demand, out of action fossil fuel plants and low amounts of Wind. The Celtic interconnector will help (up to 700MW). My post is not intended as a general how do we secure the grid, that's probably one for the Infrastructure forum. Heck, in the worse case you could build a large number of Diesel power plants, and would still be using Diesel more efficiently than by jamming it into your fuel tank.

My number is intended to help size out the energy requirements for switching the car fleet, as many people probably think of it as a "big" problem. My power shower uses 50% more electricity than my car charger.

liamog

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's not just apartments, South Dublin County Council have planning regulations in place to limit driveways to 60% of a development. That means everyone else gets parking spaces with a public path outside your front door so you can't install a charger. I want to buy an EV this year but I have on street parking and need to contact local councilors and SDCC to come up with a solution.

As much as I welcome the changes to building regs, this is one area I think we're really missing out on. There is no requirement for a local authority to work with you on providing a solution for existing dwellings. There should be.

Old diesel

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's not just apartments, South Dublin County Council have planning regulations in place to limit driveways to 60% of a development. That means everyone else gets parking spaces with a public path outside your front door so you can't install a charger. I want to buy an EV this year but I have on street parking and need to contact local councilors and SDCC to come up with a solution.

The fact that so many new houses are being built with this limitation is ridiculous knowing people will have to switch in a few years with so many already wanting to switch but can't.

A company called Ubitricity have in a number of European locations got a solution that's a partial fix to this type of issue.

Their idea was to use lamp posts - you plug into the lamp post and your car charges from it. That's not the fix for you per se.

The lamp post isnt linked to a person so users get a special charge cable which can communicate to the lamp post.

This then allows you pay ubitricity as their system knows who is using the chargepoint.

Such technology would mean you could have a chargepoint at the parking space without needing to hook up to your home's electricity.

More work needs to be done.

Old diesel

Wider issue here isn't EV technology or charging technology.

There's big challenges but charging technology and EVs are constantly evolving.

The wider issue is Irelands half baked approach to doing things.

The obvious approach going forward is that anywhere you can park a car is a potential charge point.

That's what we need to plan for.

People talk of things like workplace charging but in future the workplace for many users in office based roles is your home.

Unfortunately part of the future is that people will be encouraged where possible to own less cars.

Just this morning I saw an article where Simon Coveney (minister for Foreign affairs) call for more apartments in Cork so people could actually live without cars