Reclaiming property seized by Gardaí

JohnMooney

HI all,

Just wondering if anyone on here knows how I could go about reclaiming property seized by Gardaí.

They got a search warrant for my house based on the suspected crime of another individual who lives here. So it was absolutely nothing to do with me.
The property is A. Perfectly legal, and B. Not involved in a crime in any way (nor any suspected involvement).

The property I refer to is an airsoft gun (perfectly legal, so long as the muzzle velocity is under 1 joule, which mine was, in fact it was slightly less than 1 joule).
It costs me €120.

The Guard asked: “Is it under 1 joule?”

Me: “Yes, would you like me to show you on the website?” (Where I bought it from)

Guard: “No, I don’t trust the internet“....

Sounds unreasonable to me, but anyway-

Guard: “I’ll have to take it to be tested“....

Me “Well it’s currently not working.... unless you want to fix it for me“ (I said sarcastically, to lighten the mood)

Maybe he thought I was being cheeky, I don’t know, but he snapped at me “I WON’T BE FIXING ANYTHING!” And then: “If It doesn’t work, it will be destroyed!“

.............

I didn’t know what to say after that. I was being absolutely polite with him, as I always am with all guards. I don’t get cheeky for no reason, like so many people my age do. I’m also not one of those “all police are bad“ clowns (but apparently SOME are). And I’ve never gotten into trouble with the guards.


Can they seriously just take property that A. Isn’t illegal, and B. Isn’t involved or even suspected of having been used in a crime?


What are my options here?


And if I can’t get it back (like if it’s been destroyed already), what should I do to stop them from taking my property whenever they feel like it (in the future)?
I live in a horrible area, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they raided my house again for next to no reason....
(If you want to make judgements about me just because I live in a bad area, don’t bother, because I won’t bother responding to trolls).


Any help would be greatly appreciated (but please, serious answers only).
Thank you.



Another thing, it doesn’t matter so much, but, I’m pretty sure I seen my airsoft gun on the Garda Facebook page.... apparently they constantly post pictures of airsoft guns, with many comments saying “well done!” as if they’re taking real guns off the street.... it’s messed up honestly.
So I’m fairly certain this is the REAL reason they took my airsoft gun, just to pose it as real on Facebook....
I’m not sure if knowing this is helpful, and I don’t really care if they want to pretend, I just want MY property back.

coylemj

JohnMooney wrote: »

Guard: “No, I don’t trust the internet“....

Sounds unreasonable to me, but anyway-

Sounds very reasonable to me.

Have you tried to contact that Garda since? If you're meeting a brick wall, you could write a letter to the local Supt. asking for your property to be returned. If that doesn't work, you'll probably need to talk to a solicitor about making an application under the Police Property Act.

A joule is a unit of energy, not velocity.

JohnMooney

coylemj wrote: »

Sounds very reasonable to me.

Have you tried to contact that Garda since? If you're meeting a brick wall, you could write a letter to the local Supt. asking for your property to be returned. If that doesn't work, you'll probably need to talk to a solicitor about making an application under the Police Property Act.

A joule is a unit of energy, not velocity.

Unfortunately I didn’t get the name of the specific guard (I know I should’ve, but I wasn’t thinking at the time, I have no experience with guards).

A family member of mine contacted a Sergeant he knows, but unfortunately we haven’t heard back since.

I don’t really think paying for a solicitor would be worth it, considering it cost only €120 and was in need of repair (another €30).

I think I’ll have to just forget about it if the guards won’t do anything for me.

Thank you anyway.

Gatling

Which one is it on twitter ?

kjbsrah1

JohnMooney wrote: »

Unfortunately I didn’t get the name of the specific guard (I know I should’ve, but I wasn’t thinking at the time, I have no experience with guards)..

Just ring the local garda station and ask for the name of the garda that searched your property and seized the item. It’s no big deal. They will give you the information no bother.

3DataModem

"Can they seriously just take property that ... Isn’t involved or even suspected of having been used in a crime?"

From the Garda's perspective, it is a real imitation firearm found in the home of a suspect, and it is also disabled/broken so cannot be tested. It is an item that cannot be held or displayed in public. Cannot be transported without being properly stored. Cannot be used in sight of the public. It's a heavily restricted item.

Bear in mind that most suspicious items found in homes are declared as "that's not mine" or "that's nothing to do with me" or "that's only a replica" or whatever. Of course in your case it is true.

The last poster is right, you can reach out to the Garda, but if you are belligerent then you are likely to get stonewalled.

"what should I do to stop them from taking my property whenever they feel like it (in the future)?"

Don't have non-working replica firearms in your home? Don't live with people likely to be suspects in crimes?

SuperS54

If it was officially seized some paperwork should have been provided. In the absence of paperwork or official record of seizure I wouldn't expect to be able to get it back. Incidentally, if you don't have proof of purchase then it's unlikely to be returned to you anyway.

Samuel T. Cogley

Application to the District Court isn't it?

coylemj

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Application to the District Court isn't it?

+1 https://www.courts.ie/rules/proceedings-under-police-property-act-1897

beachhead

Going to a solr or the courts is a waste of time and money.Go to garda station and ask about your property.If,you can't provide a receipt then bye bye or even,if the gards decide there is an ongoing investigation(whether it involves you or not)then bye bye.Try again at the station in a year's time

BattleCorp

3DataModem wrote: »

From the Garda's perspective, it is a real imitation firearm found in the home of a suspect, and it is also disabled/broken so cannot be tested. It is an item that cannot be held or displayed in public. Cannot be transported without being properly stored. Cannot be used in sight of the public. It's a heavily restricted item.

I've no problem with the Gardai taking it away to be examined but if it is an airsoft gun that has less than 1 Joule muzzle energy, then it isn't a firearm, it's essentially a toy. It should be easy enough to determine if the gun is airsoft or if it's a legally licensable firearm even if it's broken. The forensics department should take all of between 2 minutes and 10 minutes to answer that question.

If it's a legally licensable firearm, the OP should be prosecuted for having an unlicensed firearm. If it's an airsoft gun, then it should be returned to the OP.

3DataModem

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've no problem with the Gardai taking it away to be examined but if it is an airsoft gun that has less than 1 Joule muzzle energy, then it isn't a firearm,

Under 1 joule they are defined as a "Realistic Imitation Firearm" and are subject to the restrictions I stated.

BattleCorp wrote: »

it's essentially a toy.

Take a look at what the 2006 CJA says about Imitation Firearms. Not quite so simple.

BattleCorp

3DataModem wrote: »

Under 1 joule they are defined as a "Realistic Imitation Firearm" and are subject to the restrictions I stated.

If it's under 1 joule, it may be a realistic imitation firearm but there are no restrictions against having it in your home.

The restrictions apply when the 'gun' is in a public place. This gun was in the OP's home. So those restrictions don't apply.

Take a look at what the 2006 CJA says about Imitation Firearms. Not quite so simple.

Yep, it's very simple. If it's in the guy's home and he isn't using it to assault, threaten or intimidate someone, then all is good.

ED E

The technical bureau have in the past taken RIFs and tested them. Generally its low priority for them and takes a couple of months. They may just clear it eventually as an inert unit as right now it does nothing.

Del2005

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've no problem with the Gardai taking it away to be examined but if it is an airsoft gun that has less than 1 Joule muzzle energy, then it isn't a firearm, it's essentially a toy. It should be easy enough to determine if the gun is airsoft or if it's a legally licensable firearm even if it's broken. The forensics department should take all of between 2 minutes and 10 minutes to answer that question.

If it's a legally licensable firearm, the OP should be prosecuted for having an unlicensed firearm. If it's an airsoft gun, then it should be returned to the OP.

It's broken and not their job to fix it so there's no way for it to be proven to be <1 joule so they are treating it as >1 joule, be happy they aren't charging you with having an illegal fire arm.

BattleCorp

Del2005 wrote: »

It's broken and not their job to fix it so there's no way for it to be proven to be <1 joule so they are treating it as >1 joule, be happy they aren't charging you with having an illegal fire arm.

You haven't much faith in the abilities of the Garda Technical Bureau.

Also, you seem to be mixed up regarding proof. The Gardai must prove it's over 1 joule if they want to prosecute the OP for posession of an illegal firearm. They aren't allowed to "treat it as >1 joule", they need.......you know .........evidence.

weldoninhio

Del2005 wrote: »

It's broken and not their job to fix it so there's no way for it to be proven to be <1 joule so they are treating it as >1 joule, be happy they aren't charging you with having an illegal fire arm.

Hahahahaha, I'd like to be in court for that. I'd say the Garda would get some dressing down from the judge.

Sierra Oscar

weldoninhio wrote: »

Hahahahaha, I'd like to be in court for that. I'd say the Garda would get some dressing down from the judge.

It's unlikely to ever get to court if what the OP is saying is true.

It doesn't change the fact that the property was lawfully seized and retained by Gardaí in order for tests to be carried out. It may take months for the test to be conducted, depending on the backlog within the Ballistics Section and the priority assigned to the case which will probably be low.

OP can make a Police Property Application, but the Gardaí will give evidence saying its awaiting testing and it's unlikely it will be returned until that has been completed. Probably better off inquiring directly to the Gardaí when the test is likely to be complete making it known that you want the property returned asap.

weldoninhio

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's unlikely to ever get to court if what the OP is saying is true.

It doesn't change the fact that the property was lawfully seized and retained by Gardaí in order for tests to be carried out. It may take months for the test to be conducted, depending on the backlog within the Ballistics Section and the priority assigned to the case which will probably be low.

OP can make a Police Property Application, but the Gardaí will give evidence saying its awaiting testing and it's unlikely it will be returned until that has been completed. Probably better off inquiring directly to the Gardaí when the test is likely to be complete making it known that you want the property returned asap.

I was more talking about the claim from another poster that as the gun "can't" be tested and proven to be under 1 joule, that the Garda could have charged him with having an illegal firearm.

If property is lawfully seized shouldn't you get a receipt from the Garda stating exactly what is taken?

Witcher

Receipts aren't issued for seized items. You're shown what's being seized and that's it.

weldoninhio

Witcher wrote: »

Receipts aren't issued for seized items. You're shown what's being seized and that's it.

I'm very surprised at that. It comes down to the Garda's word over a member of the public? I'm not sure what type of airsoft gun it was, but whats to stop a member of the public from getting it back and then falsely claiming, where is the scope and silencer that were attached to it when you took it?, as an example.

Gatling

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm very surprised at that. It comes down to the Garda's word over a member of the public? I'm not sure what type of airsoft gun it was, but whats to stop a member of the public from getting it back and then falsely claiming, where is the scope and silencer that were attached to it when you took it?, as an example.

From experience in trying to help people get airsoft kit after being sized it usually ends with the item getting sent to the phoenix park for testing from there straight to destruction ,I only know of one case that went to court trying to get an Airsoft gun back ,

Witcher

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm very surprised at that. It comes down to the Garda's word over a member of the public? I'm not sure what type of airsoft gun it was, but whats to stop a member of the public from getting it back and then falsely claiming, where is the scope and silencer that were attached to it when you took it?, as an example.

How would a receipt stop that happening?

'They took 10k cash too and wouldn't give me a receipt' when no such thing happened.

Samuel T. Cogley

In my experience the guards would write what they're seizing on the copy of the warrant they give you. Whether they're under a legal obligation to give you a copy of the warrant or a receipt, I concede I have no idea.

ED E

Gatling wrote: »

From experience in trying to help people get airsoft kit after being sized it usually ends with the item getting sent to the phoenix park for testing from there straight to destruction ,I only know of one case that went to court trying to get an Airsoft gun back ,

I got my MP7 back Gatling. Well sub joule.

Gatling

ED E wrote: »

I got my MP7 back Gatling. Well sub joule.

It's not unheard of ,that's why I said I only of one case went to court ,
I know some who had a vest /plate carrier siezed in customs and sent for ballistic testing

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

From experience in trying to help people get airsoft kit after being sized it usually ends with the item getting sent to the phoenix park for testing from there straight to destruction ,I only know of one case that went to court trying to get an Airsoft gun back ,

Why would it be sent for destruction if it's an airsoft gun and hadn't been used in the commital of a crime?

The Gardai wouldn't be allowed to seize your car and destroy it if it turned out that you were legally in possession of it and that you hadn't committed any crimes with the car.

weldoninhio

Witcher wrote: »

How would a receipt stop that happening?

'They took 10k cash too and wouldn't give me a receipt' when no such thing happened.

A receipt signed by the member of public and Garda would stop that. One part given to member of public to collect said item, one kept by the Gardai as proof of what they took.

Witcher

weldoninhio wrote: »

A receipt signed by the member of public and Garda would stop that. One part given to member of public to collect said item, one kept by the Gardai as proof of what they took.

'He took X and wouldn't give me a receipt'

How does a receipt system prevent this?

weldoninhio

Witcher wrote: »

'He took X and wouldn't give me a receipt'

How does a receipt system prevent this?

If the Garda had given out 100 receipts that year and had 1 of the above complaints, you would investigate.

If the Garda had given out 25 receipts that year and had 34 of the above complaints, you would investigate.

That or bodycams would work. The boys in blue are not above the law, or exempt from breaking it.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

A receipt signed by the member of public and Garda would stop that. One part given to member of public to collect said item, one kept by the Gardai as proof of what they took.

An exhibits chart is kept when doing a search. Many times a search log is also kept. They are official documents and can be disclosed if there is a court case.
The homeowner or occupant is shown all items that are being seized at the end of the search. Items have exhibits numbers. The search log is signed by the resident or sometimes they will sign an official notebook.
So there are official records.

OP, just call to your local station and get them to check who did the search, get in touch with the guard and see what the story is.

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

I know some who had a vest /plate carrier siezed in customs and sent for ballistic testing

Genuine question. Is it illegal to wear/own a vest plate carrier or bullet proof vest type piece of clothing?

Gatling

BattleCorp wrote: »

Genuine question. Is it illegal to wear/own a vest plate carrier or bullet proof vest type piece of clothing?

No .

Now ballistic testing is exactly that it's testing if a gun or Airsoft ( Rif) deact are real or capable of being converted to a live firearm ,or is under a joule for airsoft purposes.

How do you ballistic test essentially an item of clothing ?

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

No

Surely if it's not illegal to own, why would customs send it to ballistics?

Gatling

BattleCorp wrote: »

Surely if it's not illegal to own, why would customs send it to ballistics?

We never got a firm answer why from either customs or the guards ,

I tried to by a battle belt off eBay recently all above board the new eBay global shipping company decided the belt is a restricted item here ,
eBay said they can only go by what the shipping company is telling them what's restricted ,I'll get a refund but the seller was told the belt was siezed and will not be returned to the seller ,

Can I just point out that nothing seized is illegal until the test says it is. Everything seized is legal until proven otherwise.

Everyone arrested is innocent until a judge says otherwise.

BattleCorp

Gatling wrote: »

We never got a firm answer why from either customs or the guards ,

Was it returned after its........ahem........ballistic testing?

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Why would it be sent for destruction if it's an airsoft gun and hadn't been used in the commital of a crime?

The Gardai wouldn't be allowed to seize your car and destroy it if it turned out that you were legally in possession of it and that you hadn't committed any crimes with the car.

They would of you failed to collect it.

All property not claimed after release is disposed of eventually

BattleCorp

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They would of you failed to collect it.

All property not claimed after release is disposed of eventually

How do you know they have finished their testing? Do they make contact and tell you to collect your property within x amount of time?

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

How do you know they have finished their testing? Do they make contact and tell you to collect your property within x amount of time?

The property store should and they definitely will prior to disposal. That's only being rolled out though so not in every station