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Should there be more conditions attached to GUI affiliation?

  • 22-01-2021 5:47pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    So after the links thread got sidetracked with this question, I thought I'd start up a thread on it, since it's a fiery topic!

    Obviously there are conditions associated with being members of the GUI. I'm no expert on them, but I know in the past there was a maximum value of a prize you were allowed to give in competitions. I think I played golf with the club president who broke this rule and got his club suspended from the GUI for a year. I say I think, because as you'd expect it never came up, but my other playing partner mentioned it to me. And he was gent by the way, just lost the run of himself buying prizes for his Presidents day. But I digress. I'm sure there are other conditions attached - playing by the R&A rules, etc.

    But, should there be other conditions that a club should have to abide by in order to maintain GUI affiliation. This has the obvious knock on effect that being GUI affiliated is required to maintain handicaps. And if so, what sort of additional requirements should they have?

    In my view, I think they should, but more as a gesture. If a club wants to keep themselves exclusive, I think they are entitled to. However, if they want to be part of the golfing community of Ireland, I think some level of concession on their course is a reasonable condition. What do I think would qualify? Something like "a club must run at least two open competitions per year, with cost of entry no more than 60% of regular green fees." Lets not be pedantic about the wording or semantics, you get the general idea!

    Realistically, only a handful of people will get to play the course under that rule each year and if it's a course like Lahinch they might still be paying €150 for the privilege. But for me it's the principle of it. You're in a union together, it's a lovely thing in Ireland that golfers go to play each others clubs regularly - it genuinely does make it more of a golfing community. And a rule like that is just a token gesture really. Their members can enjoy playing other courses when on holidays around Ireland and the clubs they play will likely have opens or sometimes GUI rates for them. I don't think it's reasonable that the GUI force them to give up significant amounts of their timesheet to discounted golf, but a token amount would be appropriate.

    Should there be additional conditions of club GUI Affiliation? 25 votes

    No, they are entitled to sell their product however they see fit
    92% 23 votes
    Yes, but only minor conditions.
    4% 1 vote
    Yes, they should be required to make their course accessible, e.g. with GUI rates, opens, etc
    4% 1 vote


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭ Miley Byrne


    blue note wrote: »
    So after the links thread got sidetracked with this question, I thought I'd start up a thread on it, since it's a fiery topic!

    Obviously there are conditions associated with being members of the GUI. I'm no expert on them, but I know in the past there was a maximum value of a prize you were allowed to give in competitions.


    Think you are mixing up Amateur Status and GUI here. This has nothing to do with GUI.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    Think you are mixing up Amateur Status and GUI here. This has nothing to do with GUI.

    What does it matter if the example I gave was wrong? I'm sure there are some requirements / obligations / whatever. And actually, even if there aren't, the question is still the exact same. Should there be more requirements for gui affiliation?

    Although, the club were banned from gui competitions for a year. So I suspect it did fall under the gui remit.

    Anyway, this thread was started because another thread went off on a tangent. Let's not start this one off on a tangent now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭ Miley Byrne


    blue note wrote: »
    What does it matter if the example I gave was wrong? I'm sure there are some requirements / obligations / whatever. And actually, even if there aren't, the question is still the exact same. Should there be more requirements for gui affiliation?

    Although, the club were banned from gui competitions for a year. So I suspect it did fall under the gui remit.

    Anyway, this thread was started because another thread went off on a tangent. Let's not start this one off on a tangent now.

    Well maybe edit the OP so because I don't think Amateur Status will add anything to the discussion.

    For what it's worth I don't think quotas of open comps being foisted on clubs would be fair or reasonable. Let them decide their own pricing structure and a level will be found that allows the club to function without standards slipping. This crops up from time to time and and is a bit like wanting a Porsche but wanting to pay for a Fiesta


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    Well maybe edit the OP so because I don't think Amateur Status will add anything to the discussion.

    For what it's worth I don't think quotas of open comps being foisted on clubs would be fair or reasonable. Let them decide their own pricing structure and a level will be found that allows the club to function without standards slipping. This crops up from time to time and and is a bit like wanting a Porsche but wanting to pay for a Fiesta

    Here's an extract from golf Irelands articles of association. It's considered a serious breach of the conditions of GUI affiliation to offer a prize valued in excess of...

    So it's in their articles of association. If you'd like to edit your post fire away. It seems my post was accurate.

    Article 9
    Suspension or Termination of Status as Affiliate Club
    9.1 The following shall constitute a Serious Breach by an Affiliate Club of the provisions;
    9.1.1 a breach of the Rules of Amateur Status, as approved by the R&ARL, taking place on
    its course or links or in the clubhouse and whether in a competition organised by the
    Affiliate Club or otherwise; or
    9.1.2 a prize being offered in a competition run on its course or links, whether organised by
    the Affiliate Club or otherwise, which is not allowed by or valued in excess of the amount
    allowed by the Rules of Amateur Status is offered, whether it is won or not; or


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭ Ollieboy


    Firstly, the GUI is now golf Ireland.

    I believe there should be more rules attached to being a member like equality, rules of club, going concern, inter club etc.

    But to tell a business what they can charge for a green fee is not one of them and really all your saying is I want access to premium clubs at cheap prices, I’m not sure if you have any interest in the well being of golf in Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,380 ✭✭✭✭ FixdePitchmark


    I know I'm in a minority - and it seems to wind people up. But I certainly do not want to see members of non open holding course playing in opens in other courses. And whilst people do not believe me. It is not primarily to do with money. People who are members of a golf club in Ireland are the ones keeping the game going in Ireland. There should be respect for anyone in a golf club and a comradeship associated. ( I know there are people paying just to get a handicap - but that is another days debate).

    I know the Dublin scene well enough. So will only comment on these.

    I'd have to congratulate Portmarnock for at least making an effort this year. Was of course because of Covid and they could not bring themselves to call it an Open / GUI rate (was something along the lines of Irish golf members competition). It was 150 euro still - the course was filled with fairly serious golfers. It wasn't the end of the world for anyone. There is no reason why this should not have been a feature of Portmarnock before. But hopefully a start

    I'd be very disappointed with The Island - Because when you go there it is all very sensible. But access to an Open / GUI rate remains a bit of a mystery and not available to be honest. I've paid the rack rate a few times. Got a few invites . But I don't want invites - I just want the same treatment their members get everywhere else. Hold a bloody open.

    Royal Dublin - Most people know what Royal Dublin is - and even members / past members there have told me it genuinely is a bizarre place. They hold an Open for over 50s (only)- that is genuinely the most bizarre one out there. Because whatever you think of equality in the game. They are discriminating against you for being being under 50 (lol).
    To be honest I'd get rid of senior opens too - tortured with them in our place. We are all supposed to have a handicap.

    On the Golf Ireland amalgamation - it is only a mater of time before female membership comes up again. I know it came up before - but the world changed dramatically, golf has changed dramatically, their position is simply not sustainable if they are going to be an amalgamated union.

    Anyway - I'd be hopeful at present - it may have been initiated by Covid - but it could actually be a conduit for a more sensible attitude in some clubs. I'm positive. "Nothing changes till something actually changes".


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭ slingerz


    I know I'm in a minority - and it seems to wind people up. But I certainly do not want to see members of non open holding course playing in opens in other courses. And whilst people do not believe me. It is not primarily to do with money. People who are members of a golf club in Ireland are the ones keeping the game going in Ireland. There should be respect for anyone in a golf club and a comradeship associated. ( I know there are people paying just to get a handicap - but that is another days debate).

    I know the Dublin scene well enough. So will only comment on these.

    I'd have to congratulate Portmarnock for at least making an effort this year. Was of course because of Covid and they could not bring themselves to call it an Open / GUI rate (was something along the lines of Irish golf members competition). It was 150 euro still - the course was filled with fairly serious golfers. It wasn't the end of the world for anyone. There is no reason why this should not have been a feature of Portmarnock before. But hopefully a start

    I'd be very disappointed with The Island - Because when you go there it is all very sensible. But access to an Open / GUI rate remains a bit of a mystery and not available to be honest. I've paid the rack rate a few times. Got a few invites . But I don't want invites - I just want the same treatment their members get everywhere else. Hold a bloody open.

    Royal Dublin - Most people know what Royal Dublin is - and even members / past members there have told me it genuinely is a bizarre place. They hold an Open for over 50s (only)- that is genuinely the most bizarre one out there. Because whatever you think of equality in the game. They are discriminating against you for being being under 50 (lol).
    To be honest I'd get rid of senior opens too - tortured with them in our place. We are all supposed to have a handicap.

    On the Golf Ireland amalgamation - it is only a mater of time before female membership comes up again. I know it came up before - but the world changed dramatically, golf has changed dramatically, their position is simply not sustainable if they are going to be an amalgamated union.

    Anyway - I'd be hopeful at present - it may have been initiated by Covid - but it could be actually be a conduit for a more sensible attitude in some clubs. I'm positive. "Nothing changes till something actually changes".

    There would be no imposition on the marquee courses hosting a scratch cup etc each year to stay within GUI rules. The standard club golfer is what makes the game in this country and some bit of recognition is long overdue


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭ Season 2


    I've played very few of the really big courses in Ireland and I'm playing the game 30 years. I'm just not willing to pay more than about 60 for a round of golf. My loss i suppose. But i think clubs should make the effort to allow other club members and fellow GUI members play at more affordable rates the odd time. I can understand them not really wanting societies coming with their cans of beer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    For all some people say about the marquee clubs should be compelled to offer a GUI rate like the rest of the clubs - do the rest of the clubs do this? I thought the GUI rate was basically something that the almost top tier links courses offer, but not the regular member clubs and not the very top links clubs. The reason they offer it is so that they can price themselves higher to the foreign tourists, but they still want the local green fees which they wouldn't otherwise get. Interestingly, if they didn't charge the "American rate" I believe the americans wouldn't play their course. If the fees are €60 to play they'll assume it's not worth playing.

    What I would like to see those top top clubs do is something like what Portmarnock links did this year, even if it was scuppered by the pandemic. But running a proper open competition (as opposed to a scratch cup for scratch golfers or the like), for 60% green fees, twice in the year, off season, on a Tuesday, to me seemed like the the minimum I think all clubs in the country should do. It will probably cost the clubs virtually nothing and it just means that once or twice a year these tee times will go live and other GUI members can at least feel they have a chance to play these courses for semi reasonable money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭ RoadRunner


    I'd have to congratulate Portmarnock for at least making an effort this year. Was of course because of Covid and they could not bring themselves to call it an Open / GUI rate (was something along the lines of Irish golf members competition). It was 150 euro still - the course was filled with fairly serious golfers. It wasn't the end of the world for anyone. There is no reason why this should not have been a feature of Portmarnock before. But hopefully a start

    I thought it was only €100 a piece (€400 for a team of four). They threw in a burger half time (which was actually savage!) with refreshments and even beer & cider on the menu if I remember correctly which I haven't seen before :confused:

    If felt the welcome top notch and 100% from the drive down the road into the course to leaving afterwards you can justifiably see why it is consistently rated as a top course in Ireland. The course conditioning and the roll of the greens was a notch above anything else I've played.

    Spoke briefly to some members on the shared 13th tee and the 4th on their extra nine who couldn't have been nicer.

    The half-time bite was welcome, and the friendliness was nice too, but the course conditioning is second to none. I feel more Irish people need to play this and similar courses to see how good golf can actually get in Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭ lettuce97


    RoadRunner wrote: »
    I thought it was only €100 a piece (€400 for a team of four). They threw in a burger half time (which was actually savage!) with refreshments and even beer & cider on the menu if I remember correctly which I haven't seen before :confused:

    If felt the welcome top notch and 100% from the drive down the road into the course to leaving afterwards you can justifiably see why it is consistently rated as a top course in Ireland. The course conditioning and the roll of the greens was a notch above anything else I've played.

    Spoke briefly to some members on the shared 13th tee and the 4th on their extra nine who couldn't have been nicer.

    The half-time bite was welcome, and the friendliness was nice too, but the course conditioning is second to none. I feel more Irish people need to play this and similar courses to see how good golf can actually get in Ireland.

    I'd have a similar view. Have been lucky enough to play if a few times in interclub/practice, and would have the course layout and conditioning a clear level above any of the other top-end courses I've played. And the vibe you get there is both "this is seriously a special place" and very welcoming, no airs and graces at all. Unlike some courses slightly lower down the pecking order....

    The one issue I'd find uncomfortable is the women member issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,380 ✭✭✭✭ FixdePitchmark


    RoadRunner wrote: »
    I thought it was only €100 a piece (€400 for a team of four). They threw in a burger half time (which was actually savage!) with refreshments and even beer & cider on the menu if I remember correctly which I haven't seen before :confused:

    If felt the welcome top notch and 100% from the drive down the road into the course to leaving afterwards you can justifiably see why it is consistently rated as a top course in Ireland. The course conditioning and the roll of the greens was a notch above anything else I've played.

    Spoke briefly to some members on the shared 13th tee and the 4th on their extra nine who couldn't have been nicer.

    The half-time bite was welcome, and the friendliness was nice too, but the course conditioning is second to none. I feel more Irish people need to play this and similar courses to see how good golf can actually get in Ireland.

    You are right that the special was 100 euro - and in hindsight that was a great deal. They were also offering a reduced rate from their normal rate - if you turned up outside of that day for 150 euro. This was possibly an "irish members rate" (again seems to be some issue using GUI / Golf Ireland rate)

    I'll admit I've a massive chip on my shoulder on all this stuff :D- but would agree with lettuce there that the whole atmosphere there was very impressive and they really made a great effort with everyone.

    I think that is part of the frustration - a person going out paying a top of the range "GUI rate" (100 - 150) - is every bit if not more into their golf and respect for the place versus - A visitor guest dropping maybe 40 euro or an American paying 250.

    I know realistically when all this is over we will likely be back to the norm - but there seems to be a happy medium that is out there. Some good ideas.

    I always considered myself a complete outlier on this stuff - but looking at survey - maybe not :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,380 ✭✭✭✭ FixdePitchmark


    Season 2 wrote: »
    I've played very few of the really big courses in Ireland and I'm playing the game 30 years. I'm just not willing to pay more than about 60 for a round of golf. My loss i suppose. But i think clubs should make the effort to allow other club members and fellow GUI members play at more affordable rates the odd time. I can understand them not really wanting societies coming with their cans of beer.

    People used to say - they would never pay over 50 euro for a round of golf. I do get that - and you have to apply a certain amount of personal judgement. It is a fairly subjective topic, what you consider value and what you get out of the experience is very personal.

    I've actually come across guys - who literally would find it hard to enjoy a course if they paid too much. Value for money is a massive part of an experience for some (for most)

    I used to find the €100 a massive barrier. Still do (try €200 :eek:). But I'm very into golf and there are certain courses I genuinely have to play and will play. Within reason I'm going to pay whatever it takes. There are lots of ways to play 95 % of the courses at significantly reduced rates.

    But If I'm in an area of Ireland at any time of the year - and a must play course is in the area. I'm going to play it. You may literally never be back there again.

    If I think here of all the meals in top restaurants I've had - I can probably remember what, less than 25 % of them.

    If you ask me about any links course - I can tell you , when I was there , with who , remember a significant amount of the course (all of it, if in last year), I can remember the people I was with , a bit of my round , the weather, the things we did after.

    If you are seriously into golf - I would strongly recommend you do not refuse to play the great courses out of of some internal mental battle. You literally only have one life. You won't be remembered in work, you wont be remembered too often or at all by lads in the pub. But you will remember a round of golf - and the people you were with will remember it.

    You only have one life - go for it man.

    A top course , by the sea , the sounds , the isolation and beauty - is as my father would say "heaven on earth" - you may as well experience it. For what is 95 % of the time well under 100 euro.

    Some spiel :P:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,535 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    From a GUI point of view, would you distinguish between a Golf Club and a Golf Business?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭ slingerz


    People used to say - they would never pay over 50 euro for a round of golf. I do get that - and you have to apply a certain amount of personal judgement. It is a fairly subjective topic, what you consider value and what you get out of the experience is very personal.

    I've actually come across guys - who literally would find it hard to enjoy a course if they paid too much. Value for money is a massive part of an experience for some (for most)

    I used to find the €100 a massive barrier. Still do (try €200 :eek:). But I'm very into golf and there are certain courses I genuinely have to play and will play. Within reason I'm going to pay whatever it takes. There are lots of ways to play 95 % of the courses at significantly reduced rates.

    But If I'm in an area of Ireland at any time of the year - and a must play course is in the area. I'm going to play it. You may literally never be back there again.

    If I think here of all the meals in top restaurants I've had - I can probably remember what, less than 25 % of them.

    If you ask me about any links course - I can tell you , when I was there , with who , remember a significant amount of the course (all of it, if in last year), I can remember the people I was with , a bit of my round , the weather, the things we did after.

    If you are seriously into golf - I would strongly recommend you do not refuse to play the great courses out of of some internal mental battle. You literally only have one life. You won't be remembered in work, you wont be remembered too often or at all by lads in the pub. But you will remember a round of golf - and the people you were with will remember it.

    You only have one life - go for it man.

    A top course , by the sea , the sounds , the isolation and beauty - is as my father would say "heaven on earth" - you may as well experience it. For what is 95 % of the time well under 100 euro.

    Some spiel :P:D

    In there is a great message that gets lost on people. The money can be a bit much for some places but take the chance and go for it


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