Switch Wiring Help - Do i have a neutral?

rcanpolat

Hey folks,

I would like someones opinion on my wiring layout at my house switches. Its a new build (2019)

Am i right in assuming the electrician has sent an earth and a neutral to the switch and left them in terminal blocks for future "smart switches" or are they something else?

Wesekn.

Ya the neutrals are there

They do for smart switches

Its a handy wiring system for the electrician, that would be why they use it as well

Paul_Mc1988

Having the neutral there will save you a world of hurt in the future. I dont have them and had to put sonoff switches in the ceiling for smart switching.

Wesekn.

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Having the neutral there will save you a world of hurt in the future. I dont have them and had to put sonoff switches in the ceiling for smart switching.

You can use the smart plugs for lamps

The whole thing with smart lighting is overrated imo

2011

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Having the neutral there will save you a world of hurt in the future. I dont have them and had to put sonoff switches in the ceiling for smart switching.

FYI there are Sonoff switches that are designed to work without a neutral.

Paul_Mc1988

2011 wrote: »

FYI there are Sonoff switches that are designed to work without a neutral.

Thanks for the heads up. I put brushed chrome everywhere in the house so I dont think she'll allow me to change them now

Chuck Noland

When were regs changed to allow Neutrals at switch’s? I seem to recall as an apprentice getting told they were allowed. I may be wrong.

Paul_Mc1988

Wesekn. wrote: »

You can use the smart plugs for lamps

The whole thing with smart lighting is overrated imo

I find it handy. I have connected everything to sonoffs an paired the ewelink to alexa. It's really hand as you can turn on individual heating zones or just the hot water by speaking or from your phone. You can set timers etc which control my front door lights and heating

Wesekn.

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

I find it handy. I have connected everything to sonoffs an paired the ewelink to alexa. It's really hand as you can turn on individual heating zones or just the hot water by speaking or from your phone. You can set timers etc which control my front door lights and heating

Ya ok

We did have timers before sonoffs

Just saying

Wesekn.

Do the wall switches have a manual override?

I wouldn't trust the recessed stuff

You could wake up some morning with a network error and unable to switch anything on

rcanpolat

Original poster here.

Sorry about the late reply. I got a sonoff neutral switch (shipped from china so it takes forever) and i could use some advice if its floating about.

I am a bit confused about what i am looking at here (it gets worse for the 3 gang switches in the house but ill tackle them later. Baby steps!)

Example in the box room upstairs this is the ceiling rose wiring - https://i.imgur.com/QL5ytwN.jpg

and this is the box room switch wiring - https://i.imgur.com/HXaevv0.jpg

So i've got a Sonoff switch now (with neutral) 3 gang - https://i.imgur.com/ly3qmBX.jpg

* So do i need to rewire the ceiling rose?

* Or do I need to only rewire at the switch?

* Do I take the 2 common brown pair and wire that into the L-in port on the sonoff. I need to get a blue extension and run that from the blue block of wires to the N-in port on the sonoff and the remaining brown single wire that was originally the L1 switched i need to wire to Out-1 on the sonoff? I don't think that's correct, I don't want to burn down the new house! Herself will kill me

* Also am i correct in thinking that a ceiling rose normally has more wires then mine has?

Also on a slight side note someone mentioned no neutral switches. I got one of those to test first and its working great downstairs on the 1 gang living room switch. Only problem is i can't fit the capacitor into the ceiling rose so its dangling out of the top of the ceiling rose and looks awful. Switches perfectly though and it works great with home assistant. I tried wiring without the capacitor and the LED flickered like a strobe and wouldn't turn off.

AMKC

rcanpolat wrote: »

Original poster here.

Sorry about the late reply. I got a sonoff neutral switch (shipped from china so it takes forever) and i could use some advice if its floating about.

I am a bit confused about what i am looking at here (it gets worse for the 3 gang switches in the house but ill tackle them later. Baby steps!)

Example in the box room upstairs this is the ceiling rose wiring - https://i.imgur.com/QL5ytwN.jpg

and this is the box room switch wiring - https://i.imgur.com/HXaevv0.jpg

So i've got a Sonoff switch now (with neutral) 3 gang - https://i.imgur.com/ly3qmBX.jpg

* So do i need to rewire the ceiling rose?

* Or do I need to only rewire at the switch?

* Do I take the 2 common brown pair and wire that into the L-in port on the sonoff. I need to get a blue extension and run that from the blue block of wires to the N-in port on the sonoff and the remaining brown single wire that was originally the L1 switched i need to wire to Out-1 on the sonoff? I don't think that's correct, I don't want to burn down the new house! Herself will kill me

* Also am i correct in thinking that a ceiling rose normally has more wires then mine has?

Also on a slight side note someone mentioned no neutral switches. I got one of those to test first and its working great downstairs on the 1 gang living room switch. Only problem is i can't fit the capacitor into the ceiling rose so its dangling out of the top of the ceiling rose and looks awful. Switches perfectly though and it works great with home assistant. I tried wiring without the capacitor and the LED flickered like a strobe and wouldn't turn off.

Maybe try and make a hole into the ceiling if you can for the capacitor to go into. You might need to unscrew the ceiling rose from the ceiling to do this. Just make the hole were the wires are coming down bigger if you can but do not hit the wires especially if they are live. It's either that or get a ceiling rose or a light with more room in it.
Do I take the 2 common brown pair and wire that into the L-in port on the sonoff. I need to get a blue extension and run that from the blue block of wires to the N-in port on the sonoff and the remaining brown single wire that was originally the L1 switched i need to wire to Out-1 on the sonoff?

Yes that is how you do it with the 2 common wires. Best to make sure you turn that circuit off first so they are not live unless you are confident working with live wires.
As for the 3 neutrals the blue wires you could try putting the 3 of them into the neatral port but make sure they are in and not lose or you can do it your way. Again be careful as the neatral can come live too if there is any lights on on that circuit. Best to be safe and make sure the breaker for all upstairs lights are off when you are doing it.

Also am i correct in thinking that a ceiling rose normally has more wires then mine has?

It depends the way they are wired. In your case the electrician has brought the power to the switches and looped it to each one with the switch wire and neatral for the light taking from the switch. There is other ways of doing it that I myself prefer but I will not confuse you. You do not need to go near it.

Hmob

I'm not familiar with them but looks like it just needs a supply neutral

So your feeds, 3 switched lives and a neutral from the connector in the box

Don't bother with the other non-neutral switches if u have the neutral at switches

Paul_Mc1988

rcanpolat wrote: »

Original poster here.

Sorry about the late reply. I got a sonoff neutral switch (shipped from china so it takes forever) and i could use some advice if its floating about.

I am a bit confused about what i am looking at here (it gets worse for the 3 gang switches in the house but ill tackle them later. Baby steps!)

Example in the box room upstairs this is the ceiling rose wiring - https://i.imgur.com/QL5ytwN.jpg

and this is the box room switch wiring - https://i.imgur.com/HXaevv0.jpg

So i've got a Sonoff switch now (with neutral) 3 gang - https://i.imgur.com/ly3qmBX.jpg

* So do i need to rewire the ceiling rose?

* Or do I need to only rewire at the switch?

* Do I take the 2 common brown pair and wire that into the L-in port on the sonoff. I need to get a blue extension and run that from the blue block of wires to the N-in port on the sonoff and the remaining brown single wire that was originally the L1 switched i need to wire to Out-1 on the sonoff? I don't think that's correct, I don't want to burn down the new house! Herself will kill me

* Also am i correct in thinking that a ceiling rose normally has more wires then mine has?

Also on a slight side note someone mentioned no neutral switches. I got one of those to test first and its working great downstairs on the 1 gang living room switch. Only problem is i can't fit the capacitor into the ceiling rose so its dangling out of the top of the ceiling rose and looks awful. Switches perfectly though and it works great with home assistant. I tried wiring without the capacitor and the LED flickered like a strobe and wouldn't turn off.

Yes you're on the money for the box room switch

2 browns together into Lin
Single brown into out 1
Connect a neutral from the block to Nin

Why did you get a 3 gang ( triple switch) for the box room 🀔. You only needed one with 1 output instead of 3

Edit: no you don't need to touch the ceiling rose. Sorry I missed that part of your question

rcanpolat

AMKC wrote: »

Maybe try and make a hole into the ceiling if you can for the capacitor to go into. You might need to unscrew the ceiling rose from the ceiling to do this. Just make the hole were the wires are coming down bigger if you can but do not hit the wires especially if they are live. It's either that or get a ceiling rose or a light with more room in it.
Do I take the 2 common brown pair and wire that into the L-in port on the sonoff. I need to get a blue extension and run that from the blue block of wires to the N-in port on the sonoff and the remaining brown single wire that was originally the L1 switched i need to wire to Out-1 on the sonoff? I
Yes that is how you do it with the 2 common wires. Best to make sure you turn that circuit off first so they are not live unless you are confident working with live wires.
As for the 3 neutrals the blue wires you could try putting the 3 of them into the neatral port but make sure they are in and not loser you can do it your way. Again be careful as the neatral can come live too if there is any lights on on that circuit. Best to be safe and make sure the breaker for all upstairs lights are off when you are doing it.

You mentioned that the neutrals can come live if there are any lights on that circuit. Is there any danger then if it's wired with a neutral in the box room and the rest of the upstairs lights are wired in the traditional live/switched live setup? By danger I mean risk of fire or shorting out somewhere

Hmob

rcanpolat wrote: »

You mentioned that the neutrals can come live if there are any lights on that circuit. Is there any danger then if it's wired with a neutral in the box room and the rest of the upstairs lights are wired in the traditional live/switched live setup? By danger I mean risk of fire or shorting out somewhere

They should all be done the same way in an installation

alan4cult

rcanpolat wrote: »

You mentioned that the neutrals can come live if there are any lights on that circuit. Is there any danger then if it's wired with a neutral in the box room and the rest of the upstairs lights are wired in the traditional live/switched live setup? By danger I mean risk of fire or shorting out somewhere

Honestly I wouldn't be doing this work if you are asking those kinds of questions. It's just safer to know what is going on.

The neutral can be anywhere, looped in at switch (as you have) or looped in at rose.
You won't cause a short having a mix, it's just usual that it is wired one way or the other. You can even have the neutral both looped at rose and extended down to switch.

Neutrals were kept in the rose as they were traditionally rarely needed at the switch (before smart switches and PIRs).

Hmob

alan4cult wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't be doing this work if you are asking those kinds of questions. It's just safer to know what is going on.

The neutral can be anywhere, looped in at switch (as you have) or looped in at rose.
You won't cause a short having a mix, it's just usual that it is wired one way or the other. You can even have the neutral both looped at rose and extended down to switch.

Neutrals were kept in the rose as they were traditionally rarely needed at the switch (before smart switches and PIRs).

The method of looping t+e at the switch and a t+e to the fitting came in about 20 years ago if I remember

It's handy for the smart switches but I think it came in to simplify connection of light fittings, it's the best method of the 3 that are in use.

The inspector I had at the time didn't approve of it when contractors started wiring that way

AMKC

alan4cult wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't be doing this work if you are asking those kinds of questions. It's just safer to know what is going on.

The neutral can be anywhere, looped in at switch (as you have) or looped in at rose.
You won't cause a short having a mix, it's just usual that it is wired one way or the other. You can even have the neutral both looped at rose and extended down to switch.

Neutrals were kept in the rose as they were traditionally rarely needed at the switch (before smart switches and PIRs).

They were traditionally kept at the rose because its neater. Nothing worse than having some ugly connectors in at your switch because someone thought it might be a good idea to bring the neatrals there. Yes maybe now with smart switchs ok but myself I still prefer it the other way and besides if you can get smart switchs that do not need a neatral then there is still no reason for having the neatral at the switch except for laziness.

Hmob

AMKC wrote: »

They were traditionally kept at the rose because its neater. Nothing worse than having some ugly connectors in at your switch because someone thought it might be a good idea to bring the neatrals there. Yes maybe now with smart switchs ok but myself I still prefer it the other way and besides if you can get smart switchs that do not need a neatral then there is still no reason for having the neatral at the switch except for laziness.

They were kept at the rose because they weren't needed at the switch

They simplified wiring and the connection of light fittings and spots etc was the reason they came in

You're wrong on the last part

TheBoyConor

There is no need to bring neutrals to a switch. The only reason the electrician did that is they were using 2+E cable, and the connector block is just to joint up the neutrals. I can assure you they weren't intentionally future proofing for smart switches. It is just a convenient by-product.

Smart lighting is a load of nonsense tbh in my view, unless you have an actual disability that makes it difficult to use a switch.

alan4cult

Should point out there is a difference between having a neutral at switch and looping at switch.
All you are doing is bringing the neutral down from the light, not heading to the next one which does reduce the wiring.

AMKC

Hmob wrote: »

They were kept at the rose because they weren't needed at the switch

They simplified wiring and the connection of light fittings and spots etc was the reason they came in

You're wrong on the last part

I disagree about been wrong on the last part.

If an electrician decides to use twin Brown and blue + earth to wire to the switchs and then the same to the light its him only wanting to use the one cable and not having to get twin brown + earth as well so its lazy but I suppose it could be to keep costs down to if it works out cheaper just to use twin brown and blue plus earth.
Me I prefer to use both cables and use the 3 plate method. What if someone wants to have an attic light put in there attic later on. At least that way you can take it from a ceiling rose but with the power been at the switchs you can not. Each way has its advantages and disadvantages I suppose.

Hmob

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There is no need to bring neutrals to a switch. The only reason the electrician did that is they were using 2+E cable, and the connector block is just to joint up the neutrals. I can assure you they weren't intentionally future proofing for smart switches. It is just a convenient by-product.

Smart lighting is a load of nonsense tbh in my view, unless you have an actual disability that makes it difficult to use a switch.

You dont need to assure me of anything

I was working in this area when the change was
introduced and have been workingin the electrical field for 30 years

TheBoyConor

I wasn't assuring you of anything. I was telling the OP.

Hmob

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There is no need to bring neutrals to a switch. The only reason the electrician did that is they were using 2+E cable, and the connector block is just to joint up the neutrals. I can assure you they weren't intentionally future proofing for smart switches. It is just a convenient by-product.

Smart lighting is a load of nonsense tbh in my view, unless you have an actual disability that makes it difficult to use a switch.

Agree on that last part btw, smart lighting is way overrated

Some strategically placed pirs indoors are of more practical use

The best reason to use the "contractor method" is that lads don't pick up a roll of single blue instead of brown and wire half the house with it.
In my house bashing days we had to ban twin brown because thicko subbys on price work would do things like that and by the time the second fix came they'd be gone.
Also if your wiring in singles you actually need to think about what your doing!

rcanpolat

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Yes you're on the money for the box room switch

2 browns together into Lin
Single brown into out 1
Connect a neutral from the block to Nin

Why did you get a 3 gang ( triple switch) for the box room ��. You only needed one with 1 output instead of 3

Edit: no you don't need to touch the ceiling rose. Sorry I missed that part of your question

I got a 3 gang sonoff switch to test with the existing 3 gang sockets in the house but when i pulled one off the wall and seen the wiring i figured i'd try wiring it with a 1 gang first until i was sure what was what that i was looking at.

Prior to that i bought a 3 gang no neutral. It has an advantage in that i have that paired up with home assistant on my server. I have automation's running so when the remaining 2 switches on the 3 gang are pressed it turns on lamps in the living room and it also turns on a lamp in the back room in my house (those lamps are wired up with sonoff basic and with tp-link kasa plug). The 2 switches on the 3 gang are not wired up to anything but they grab power from the ceiling light. Im not sure if the Sonoff 3 gang neutral has that functionality. Thats another reason i bought a sonoff 3 gang was to test does the entire switch remain powered when the lights are off so that i can trigger the other free gangs with home assistant.

Ultimately what i want is to have 3 gangs in most rooms. I can wire the first switch to the ceiling, the 2nd switch triggers a lamp automation in that room and the 3rd switch can run another automation for that particular room like turn off the lights and start up Plex on the TV or have 1 switch that turns off everything in the house or 1 switch turns on my morning alarms or what ever.