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Advance stop lines at junctions with no traffic lights?

  • 29-12-2020 12:09am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭ legend99


    Hi,
    Was out driving the other day and came across a newly resurfaced junction - T junction - and after resurfacing it has an advanced stop line and a "bicycle box". I've always understood they were specifically designed for junctions with traffic lights - and there are various good reasons for them to be there and they facilitate cyclists not being stuck behind an exhaust pipe waiting, taking off safely etc. But at a non-signal controlled junction I am bewildered as to its function. At the most basic, I had to enter it in the car to to be able to see safely. But after entering it I might then become aware that I cannot take off safely. So now I'm blocking it. But the only way to guarantee to not block it is to clear the junction from behind the advanced stop line - but I simply couldn't see from back there. So we're into paradox territory!

    Does anyone know the status of them at non-signal controlled junctions? I managed to find UK stuff which specifically says they are not allowed at such non-signal controlled junctions. It's very difficult to find the specific detail here but everything here does imply they are for signal controlled junctions only - but it doesn't say that. Is it so obvious that it just doesn't bother writing it out - and is this possibly a case where some planner is so obsessed with cyclists that it was actually included incorrectly?

    Thanks!


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ Citrus_8


    legend99 wrote: »
    Hi,
    Was out driving the other day and came across a newly resurfaced junction - T junction - and after resurfacing it has an advanced stop line and a "bicycle box". I've always understood they were specifically designed for junctions with traffic lights - and there are various good reasons for them to be there and they facilitate cyclists not being stuck behind an exhaust pipe waiting, taking off safely etc. But at a non-signal controlled junction I am bewildered as to its function. At the most basic, I had to enter it in the car to to be able to see safely. But after entering it I might then become aware that I cannot take off safely. So now I'm blocking it. But the only way to guarantee to not block it is to clear the junction from behind the advanced stop line - but I simply couldn't see from back there. So we're into paradox territory!

    Does anyone know the status of them at non-signal controlled junctions? I managed to find UK stuff which specifically says they are not allowed at such non-signal controlled junctions. It's very difficult to find the specific detail here but everything here does imply they are for signal controlled junctions only - but it doesn't say that. Is it so obvious that it just doesn't bother writing it out - and is this possibly a case where some planner is so obsessed with cyclists that it was actually included incorrectly?

    Thanks!
    There's a big mess in the Irish roads: lack of road signs, lanes merging without a warning etc. I'm sure Ireland should have a road planning standard as it's very common and usual in all the EU.

    I guess the problem is that Ireland seem to be slow to review current roads, markings and junctions and to improve them.

    I could only guess that an increasing number of cyclists and the general awareness of making roads safer in all Europe is creating a demand for changes. There may have been some recent changes in the standardisation which I'm not aware of, or simply a traffic light will be built there later on? Where exactly is the junction in question?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,631 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    legend99 wrote: »
    Is it so obvious that it just doesn't bother writing it out - and is this possibly a case where some planner is so obsessed with cyclists that it was actually included incorrectly?

    Almost no planner is "obsessed" with cyclists and very few of them give them a second's thought. What they do have is targets to improve cycling infrastructure and instead of doing it properly, they don't give it any thought at all, but throw down some paint and call it job done.

    An ASL at a non-signal controlled junction doesn't make much sense. But its not there because someone is obsessed with cyclists, its there cause they don't think about them.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    legend99 wrote: »
    Hi,
    Was out driving the other day and came across a newly resurfaced junction - T junction - and after resurfacing it has an advanced stop line and a "bicycle box". I've always understood they were specifically designed for junctions with traffic lights - and there are various good reasons for them to be there and they facilitate cyclists not being stuck behind an exhaust pipe waiting, taking off safely etc. But at a non-signal controlled junction I am bewildered as to its function. At the most basic, I had to enter it in the car to to be able to see safely. But after entering it I might then become aware that I cannot take off safely. So now I'm blocking it. But the only way to guarantee to not block it is to clear the junction from behind the advanced stop line - but I simply couldn't see from back there. So we're into paradox territory!

    Does anyone know the status of them at non-signal controlled junctions? I managed to find UK stuff which specifically says they are not allowed at such non-signal controlled junctions. It's very difficult to find the specific detail here but everything here does imply they are for signal controlled junctions only - but it doesn't say that. Is it so obvious that it just doesn't bother writing it out - and is this possibly a case where some planner is so obsessed with cyclists that it was actually included incorrectly?

    Thanks!

    Where is the junction?


  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭ legend99


    monument wrote: »
    Where is the junction?

    Cork. Where Monahan Road meets Victoria Road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,612 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Obviously Google maps is out of date with their photographs, any chance of a photo or video to show the current markings? I'm thinking maybe it's not a bike box/ASL set up but a set back yield or stop sign, as in the design manual.

    5615_SY-07_3D.jpg

    Though I would wonder what the legal situation would be if you have crossed the Yield line and are therefore (AFAIK) no longer regulated by it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,002 ✭✭✭ TheChizler


    Possibly this extension of a cycle lane and the stop box is actually markings for a (terrible) shared surface? Not even completely sure if this scheme is still going ahead. I was down there on the 22nd and no sign of any works, shocked that they've been working over Christmas.

    Third last drawing from the bottom. https://irishcycle.com/2019/07/23/cork-city-plans-700-metre-extension-to-cycle-path-network/


  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭ legend99


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Possibly this extension of a cycle lane and the stop box is actually markings for a (terrible) shared surface? Not even completely sure if this scheme is still going ahead. I was down there on the 22nd and no sign of any works, shocked that they've been working over Christmas.

    Third last drawing from the bottom. https://irishcycle.com/2019/07/23/cork-city-plans-700-metre-extension-to-cycle-path-network/

    That's the Junction. When I'm next on it I'll take a snap. I was 99% it was marked like an ASL would be. But let me check!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭ dashcamdanny


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Obviously Google maps is out of date with their photographs, any chance of a photo or video to show the current markings? I'm thinking maybe it's not a bike box/ASL set up but a set back yield or stop sign, as in the design manual.

    5615_SY-07_3D.jpg

    Though I would wonder what the legal situation would be if you have crossed the Yield line and are therefore (AFAIK) no longer regulated by it?

    The set back could be for larger vehicle to make the swing in.

    Worst possible place for a cycle to sit as some trucks have a restricted view of what is directly in front.

    Prime example is Dame street/George street. Cycle box should be added there.


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