solicitor refusing certified will?

the watchman

A couple of years back a solicitor helped prepare a will for my father. I was given photo copies of that will by the solicitor. The solicitor kept the original. Sometime later the solicitor assisted in obtaining Power Of Attorney for myself.

My father is now incapacitated and I have been handling all of his affairs. I recently requested a ‘Certified’ copy of the will from the solicitor and gave the reasons why I needed one.

I have made the request twice and each time the solicitor has refused to provide me with one saying that he does not know what it will be used for even though he does.

As I have P.O.A. over all financial and welfare matters can the solicitor legally refuse this request.

GerardKeating

As a side note, what difference would it make having a "certified copy" rather than just a photo copy.

Given that you told the solicitor the reason you wanted this, maybe his disapproves on your intention and feels he should not cooperate with it for some reason.

ohnonotgmail

curious why you need a certified copy of the will. You POA expires on their death.

mickuhaha

Not sure on this so ask a solicitor. I think he doesn't have to provide you with a copy of the will. He is only required to provide a copy of the will to the executor upon death. I don't think your power extends to include the will and may be specific in relation to the affairs you may attend on behalf them.

blackbox

Do you suspect there is a newer version of the will than the one of which you have a copy.

daheff

Is there a chance that the solicitor thinks you are intending to have this will amended and the solicitor is trying to passively prevent this to keep the will in lines with what his client (your father) originally intended?

ohnonotgmail

daheff wrote: »

Is there a chance that the solicitor thinks you are intending to have this will amended and the solicitor is trying to passively prevent this to keep the will in lines with what his client (your father) originally intended?

can you amend a will using POA? I'm an attorney for my mother and I dont remember the solicitor mentioning that power to me. and do you ever amend a will? any changes result in a new will that supersedes the previous one.

CoBo55

I don't think the will can be viewed until your father dies especially now that he's incapacitated and poa has come into force. I'm assuming your father is still alive.

the watchman

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciated.


I want to avoid the thread from straying off topic as sometimes happens so here are some facts which should help.
1, I already have a photo copy of will as mentioned in post.
2, There is no chance of any other will having been made.
3, There is no intention of trying to change the will.
4, A ‘certified’ copy, repeat ‘certified copy’ is required to support an application for funding for my fathers ongoing care needs.

So I suppose my question is as I have POA can the solicitor legally refuse and/or can I force the solicitor to comply with request.

Thanks again and happy Christmas to everyone.

mickuhaha

Post a copy of your power of attorney. It will set out your power.
Can you tell us the application that requires a copy of will as this is normally only required when someone has passed away and not before as it only takes effect on death.

Dolbhad

the watchman wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciated.


I want to avoid the thread from straying off topic as sometimes happens so here are some facts which should help.
1, I already have a photo copy of will as mentioned in post.
2, There is no chance of any other will having been made.
3, There is no intention of trying to change the will.
4, A ‘certified’ copy, repeat ‘certified copy’ is required to support an application for funding for my fathers ongoing care needs.

So I suppose my question is as I have POA can the solicitor legally refuse and/or can I force the solicitor to comply with request.

Thanks again and happy Christmas to everyone.

I’ve never heard of them needing a copy of certified copy of a will for funding. It has no bearing until death and regardless funding like fair deals scheme will be covered by the estate regardless of what’s in the will. If an application was looking for the will, I would be questioning that with that. The POA or a Care Order is sufficient enough for things like that.

You are not entitled to see the will regardless of the POA. Upon death, the executor and beneficiaries can request the will.

Hope your father is doing okay and good luck.

CoBo55

Dolbhad wrote: »

I’ve never heard of them needing a copy of certified copy of a will for funding. It has no bearing until death and regardless funding like fair deals scheme will be covered by the estate regardless of what’s in the will. If an application was looking for the will, I would be questioning that with that. The POA or a Care Order is sufficient enough for things like that.

You are not entitled to see the will regardless of the POA. Upon death, the executor and beneficiaries can request the will.

Hope your father is doing okay and good luck.

The only thing I can think of is that the op is applying for the nursing home loan and FD want to be sure they're going to be repaid. The will is proof that the estate is left to him. I'm not that familiar with the paperwork required for the NH loan as I went with paying them monthly for my late Fathers care.

ohnonotgmail

CoBo55 wrote: »

The only thing I can think of is that the op is applying for the nursing home loan and FD want to be sure they're going to be repaid. The will is proof that the estate is left to him. I'm not that familiar with the paperwork required for the NH loan as I went with paying them monthly for my late Fathers care.

that doesn't matter. the loan is repaid from the estate before the estate is dispersed.

coylemj

Dolbhad wrote: »

You are not entitled to see the will regardless of the POA. Upon death, the executor and beneficiaries can request the will.

From multiple threads in this forum, it appears that beneficiaries have no such right before probate is granted. At which point, anybody can request a copy from the probate office as it's then a public document. Family disagreements over the asset split and/or frosty relationships mean that in many cases, the executor and the solicitor (on the instructions of the executor) refuse to communicate with the beneficaries while probate is ongoing.

In any event, nobody has a right to see a will before the testator dies. And how a 'certified' will has any value is dubious because there could be a later will, rendering that will (certified or otherwise) not worth the paper it's written on.

dok_golf

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you amend a will using POA? I'm an attorney for my mother and I dont remember the solicitor mentioning that power to me. and do you ever amend a will? any changes result in a new will that supersedes the previous one.

absolutely not

CoBo55

The only certified document I've ever heard of is a certified death cert, I needed some from the solicitor for financial institutions as I gave him the original.

Claw Hammer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that doesn't matter. the loan is repaid from the estate before the estate is dispersed.

Maybe they want to see if there will be an estate to be dispersed?

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

In any event, nobody has a right to see a will before the testator dies. And how a 'certified' will has any value is dubious because there could be a later will, rendering that will (certified or otherwise) not worth the paper it's written on.

If the testator is no longer of sound disposing mind, there there cannot be any change to the will.

CoBo55

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Maybe they want to see if there will be an estate to be dispersed?

That's what I meant but you've put it better.

ohnonotgmail

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Maybe they want to see if there will be an estate to be dispersed?

what use is a copy of a will in that?

CoBo55

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what use is a copy of a will in that?

The property could be left to the Battersea dogs home.

Claw Hammer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what use is a copy of a will in that?

There may be no assets at all or the value of the assets may be very small. He may have bequeathed his yacht which has since been sold and the house might be subject to a reverse mortgage. There may be mention of an illegitimate child or a hidden second wife.

Hannibal_Smith

OP, could you ask the party looking for the certified copy of the Will to put the request in writing to you and you can then send that to the solicitor? A bit of a faff, but if they have something in writing that they can produce if someone has an issue with them giving you a certified copy of the will that might ease any concerns they might have?

ohnonotgmail

CoBo55 wrote: »

The property could be left to the Battersea dogs home.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There may be no assets at all or the value of the assets may be very small. He may have bequeathed his yacht which has since been sold and the house might be subject to a reverse mortgage. There may be mention of an illegitimate child or a hidden second wife.

none of that matters. if there are no assets at all then the amount owed for care will be similarly small. as I said earlier in the thread any money owed is paid before the estate is dispersed.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If the testator is no longer of sound disposing mind, there there cannot be any change to the will.

My point is that another will could have been made the very next day so nobody can be 100% certain that he or she is in possession of the last valid will.

coylemj

CoBo55 wrote: »

The only certified document I've ever heard of is a certified death cert, I needed some from the solicitor for financial institutions as I gave him the original.

A death cert is simply a copy of the entry in the register of deaths, there is no ‘original’. It’s not much different from a birth cert - you can get as many copies as you require from the GRO. I did personal probate a few years ago and paid for 10 copies of the death certificate. Which, like you, I sent to various banks.

Paying a solicitor to photocopy a document you supplied him sounds like a monumental waste of money.

CoBo55

coylemj wrote: »

A death cert is simply a copy of the entry in the register of deaths, there is no ‘original’. It’s not much different from a birth cert - you can get as many copies as you require from the GRO. I did personal probate a few years ago and paid for 10 copies of the death certificate. Which, like you, I sent to various banks.

Paying a solicitor to photocopy a document you supplied him sounds like a monumental waste of money.

With the siblings I have it was worth every penny getting everything done through the solicitor. What I meant by original was it was the one given to me by the office of births deaths and marriages. I think you know that anyway. They're €20 each so it was handier for me to claim for the cost of 1 cert and let anything else be taken as costs incurred by the solicitor. The local office is only open part-time and I didn't fancy having to drive to the nearest office every time the solicitor needed a cert.

Claw Hammer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

none of that matters. if there are no assets at all then the amount owed for care will be similarly small. as I said earlier in the thread any money owed is paid before the estate is dispersed.

The carer is being asked to care for someone ion the basis they will be paid when that person dies. Due diligence requires they know what they are getting into.

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

My point is that another will could have been made the very next day so nobody can be 100% certain that he or she is in possession of the last valid will.

That is theoretical. It would require that the testator went to another solicitor the next day and had another will drawn up with different devises and bequests. Any body giving credit on the assets of the estate will only be interested in identifying the assets to ensure than none have been disposed of since. If the testator said he owned a house or shares or whatever in his will the putative creditor is only interested in knowing that the testator is still the owner not whether they were left to A in one will and B in another.

ohnonotgmail

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The carer is being asked to care for someone ion the basis they will be paid when that person dies. Due diligence requires they know what they are getting into.

and a will doesn't do that. there is a financial assessment done as part of the application for the "fair deal" scheme. that is when the persons assets are declared. The carer i.e. the care home , has no part in this. the financial assessment is done by the department of health. the department of health pays the care home and the cost is due from the persons estate on death.

huskerdu

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and a will doesn't do that. there is a financial assessment done as part of the application for the "fair deal" scheme. that is when the persons assets are declared. The carer i.e. the care home , has no part in this. the financial assessment is done by the department of health. the department of health pays the care home and the cost is due from the persons estate on death.

And the will does not have to list the assets or the value of the assets so is not a useful part of a assessment of the assets

CoBo55

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and a will doesn't do that. there is a financial assessment done as part of the application for the "fair deal" scheme. that is when the persons assets are declared. The carer i.e. the care home , has no part in this. the financial assessment is done by the department of health. the department of health pays the care home and the cost is due from the persons estate on death.

Maybe the op is trying to sort out a private arrangement with a carer on the basis that said carer will be paid when his father dies and the house that's left to him gets sold.

ohnonotgmail

CoBo55 wrote: »

Maybe the op is trying to sort out a private arrangement with a carer on the basis that said carer will be paid when his father dies and the house that's left to him gets sold.

no carer will work on the promise of payment on an unspecified and unknowable date in the future.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

My point is that another will could have been made the very next day so nobody can be 100% certain that he or she is in possession of the last valid will.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is theoretical. It would require that the testator went to another solicitor the next day and had another will drawn up with different devises and bequests.

My hypothesis was 'theoretical' :eek: This whole thread is theoretical, we have almost zero facts to go on.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Any body giving credit on the assets of the estate will only be interested in identifying the assets to ensure than none have been disposed of since. If the testator said he owned a house or shares or whatever in his will the putative creditor is only interested in knowing that the testator is still the owner not whether they were left to A in one will and B in another.

'Assets of the estate' Isn't that being a tad theoretical? Because the previous day (post #22), you posted this .....

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There may be no assets at all or the value of the assets may be very small. He may have bequeathed his yacht which has since been sold and the house might be subject to a reverse mortgage.

Mr. Incognito

You are not entitled to a certified copy of the will.

Its not your will.

Marcusm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You are not entitled to a certified copy of the will.

Its not your will.

That would presumably depend on the terms of the power of attorney granted by the testator. The document is, however, a dead letter as far as any finance is concerned. The PoA should be all that matters.

vector

Someone asked what a 'Certified copy' is.

It is a document that starts out as a photocopy but is then 'certified' to be a true copy by someone with a legal title such as Solr or Comm for Oaths.

CoBo55

vector wrote: »

Someone asked what a 'Certified copy' is.

It is a document that starts out as a photocopy but is then 'certified' to be a true copy by someone with a legal title such as Solr or Comm for Oaths.

No, it starts out as the original that's issued by the office of births deaths and marriages, the solicitor or commissioner for oaths then photocopies it and certifies it to be a true copy. In my case the original stayed with the solicitor.

CoBo55

CoBo55 wrote: »

No, it starts out as the original that's issued by the office of births deaths and marriages, the solicitor or commissioner for oaths then photocopies it and certifies it to be a true copy. In my case the original stayed with the solicitor.

No, it's a copy that's certified by a commissioner of oaths. It can be a copy of any document so need not come from the office mentioned.

CoBo55

Unfollowed, continuing my new years resolution. Can't be dealing with dickheads telling me things that are complete fantasy.

Mod
Pls do not use abusive language so close to the festive season

Peregrinus

Cobo may not see this, but Niner Leprechaun is correct. A certified copy does not "start out as an original"; the original document will always remain the original document and a copy will always be a copy. An original document never becomes a copy; the original and the copy are always two separate documents.

To make a certified copy of a document you:

(a) get the original document;

(b) make or get a copy of the original document;

(c) examine the copy and compare it with the original to be sure that it is an accurate copy, is complete, etc; and

(d) write on the copy something along the lines of "I certify that this has been compared with, and is a true copy of, the original" and sign and date that.

What you have written on the document is the "certificate", and because the copy has this certificate on it it is now a "certified copy". Usually the comparison is made, and the certificate is written and signed by somebody with a degree of status, indepence and reliablity, such as a solicitor, registrar, public official, etc. And of course whoever it is has to have, or have access to, the original document; otherwise he won't be able to compare the copy with the original.

CoBo55

CoBo55 wrote: »

Unfollowed, continuing my new years resolution. Can't be dealing with dickheads telling me things that are complete fantasy.

It's amazing that having only ever obtained 1 certified copy in your life, you are so sure I am wrong that your felt justified in a direct insult